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[Kronos] Pirate Faction Cruisers

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KatanTharkay
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1061 - 2014-04-16 08:41:45 UTC
Looking at Jita prices it seems like the Cynabal is slowly becoming the old Phantsm.
Sgt EVE
Garage Bagage
#1062 - 2014-04-16 12:58:17 UTC
on the whole, I rate all changes as comprehensible except the vigilant nerf.

it is now the first ship with too little powergrid in order to fit the other version of the appropriate weaponsystem.

let´s do some math:

ashimmu and vigilant both have 5H,4M,6L
ashimmu have 16,2% more PG than the vigilant

max. fittable PG for the H-slots:
Ashimmu: 3x heavy beam laser II + 2x medium nos/neut 3x 248 + 2x 200 = 1144
Vigiant: 5x 250mm railgun II 5x 208 = 1040

ashimmu only needs 10% more PG than Vigilant
if you take Meta 4 nos/neut with no negativ effect the ashimmu needs only 4% more PG

in other words ... the ashimmu have min.12,2% more PG to fit for tank
but already have 18% more base armor HP than the vigilant

CCP Rise please explain that to me !!!
Cannibal Kane
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1063 - 2014-04-16 13:40:24 UTC
Sgt EVE wrote:
on the whole, I rate all changes as comprehensible except the vigilant nerf.

it is now the first ship with too little powergrid in order to fit the other version of the appropriate weaponsystem.

let´s do some math:

ashimmu and vigilant both have 5H,4M,6L
ashimmu have 16,2% more PG than the vigilant

max. fittable PG for the H-slots:
Ashimmu: 3x heavy beam laser II + 2x medium nos/neut 3x 248 + 2x 200 = 1144
Vigiant: 5x 250mm railgun II 5x 208 = 1040

ashimmu only needs 10% more PG than Vigilant
if you take Meta 4 nos/neut with no negativ effect the ashimmu needs only 4% more PG

in other words ... the ashimmu have min.12,2% more PG to fit for tank
but already have 18% more base armor HP than the vigilant

CCP Rise please explain that to me !!!



Like I have said multiple times.

The Vigilant which is already a an expensive ship to fit properly is also very rarely flown. All they are doing it making it less worth while to fly. So it will be less seen then it already is.

CCP Rise has not responded and I doubt they will reserve it. So much for so called balancing.

"Kane is the End Boss of Highsec." -Psychotic Monk
Crazy KSK
Tsunami Cartel
#1064 - 2014-04-16 16:59:34 UTC
Cannibal Kane wrote:

Like I have said multiple times.

The Vigilant which is already a an expensive ship to fit properly is also very rarely flown. All they are doing it making it less worth while to fly. So it will be less seen then it already is.

CCP Rise has not responded and I doubt they will reserve it. So much for so called balancing.


while I agree that the power grid nerf is not needed at all and "strangeness" without further explanation is not a justifiable reason to nerf something to that extend

I have to point out that the reason its not flown much is its its hull price and to a lesser extend its fragility
this would have to be fixed by making it drop more I believe it drops from less complexes then the other 3 pirate cruisers

PS: according to this as I expected sepentis is missing 6/10s, to my surprise angel don't have any either but the amount of people living there seems to make up for it

Quote CCP Fozzie: ... The days of balance and forget are over.
Jamir Von Lietuva
Nameless Minions
GaNg BaNg TeAm
#1065 - 2014-04-17 09:11:01 UTC
Viribus wrote:
So the Cynabal is basically a Vagabond that gains the ability to get on grid quickly while losing the ability to do anything useful on grid. Sweeeeeeeeeeet

Rise, dawg, I love what you've done with most of the pirate faction stuff. Really. But man you've gotta figure out a unique role for the non-Machariel Angel ships that sets them apart from their Minmatar counterparts. "Warping quickly" isn't a role, especially not when once they warp somewhere they basically just provide moderate DPS. The Mach gets a pass because it's the only battleship that can sort of kite and keep up with cruisers, and even then its role as fast battleship-sized DPS has been somewhat superseded by tier 3 BCs.

Serp ships are the only ones with 90% webs, Blood ships are the only ones with pre-nerf nosferatus, Sansha ships are the only non-T3s with AB bonuses, the Gurista ships aren't all that unique but drones are so broken at the moment it doesn't really matter. The Cynabal needs something to set it apart from the zillion other cruiser-sized kiting ships. A point range bonus, MWD cap use bonus, some sort of ewar/tackle resistance, anything. Hell at this point I'd be satisfied with a TP bonus. Just something to make it more than a Vagabond that's better in some ways and worse in a whole lot more.

I think you're seriously overestimating how useful all the Angel ships are seen by PVPers in 2014. Even the Machariel collects dust in this age of 2km/s cruisers, MWD-sig-reduced HACs, and ubiquitous interceptors.

this
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#1066 - 2014-04-17 13:00:08 UTC
Jamir Von Lietuva wrote:
Viribus wrote:
So the Cynabal is basically a Vagabond that gains the ability to get on grid quickly while losing the ability to do anything useful on grid. Sweeeeeeeeeeet

Rise, dawg, I love what you've done with most of the pirate faction stuff. Really. But man you've gotta figure out a unique role for the non-Machariel Angel ships that sets them apart from their Minmatar counterparts. "Warping quickly" isn't a role, especially not when once they warp somewhere they basically just provide moderate DPS. The Mach gets a pass because it's the only battleship that can sort of kite and keep up with cruisers, and even then its role as fast battleship-sized DPS has been somewhat superseded by tier 3 BCs.

Serp ships are the only ones with 90% webs, Blood ships are the only ones with pre-nerf nosferatus, Sansha ships are the only non-T3s with AB bonuses, the Gurista ships aren't all that unique but drones are so broken at the moment it doesn't really matter. The Cynabal needs something to set it apart from the zillion other cruiser-sized kiting ships. A point range bonus, MWD cap use bonus, some sort of ewar/tackle resistance, anything. Hell at this point I'd be satisfied with a TP bonus. Just something to make it more than a Vagabond that's better in some ways and worse in a whole lot more.

I think you're seriously overestimating how useful all the Angel ships are seen by PVPers in 2014. Even the Machariel collects dust in this age of 2km/s cruisers, MWD-sig-reduced HACs, and ubiquitous interceptors.

this



While i do agree in general that angel ships need (like the dram, which is totally useless) something, a warp speed bonus is amazing, as any of you who have reccently roamed around solo in a mach or even a cynabal probably have noticed, it doesnt work. You are just to slow (in warp speed), add in a negative sec status so that frigates can tackle at gates (or be in nullsec) and roamign becomes a major pita, you are a high value target that has 0 mobility, once a frig starts following you you will not get away, then the cyno is ready and goodbye mach. But it is not enough.

A double range bonus on the cyna (and return the mach to prenerf) would be a easy solution, make it a kiter and the vaga already is a asb brawler.



Also, give back the speed increase on higher meta mwds - this alone would be a major and needed buff for both the cyna and the mach, it basicelly means they become fast - but only in relation to the usual t1 cruisers sipping around. The game has become to fast, the speed kings of old are to slow.
Flyinghotpocket
Small Focused Memes
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#1067 - 2014-04-18 02:45:33 UTC
so literally how about a response to the gila

web one medium drone and kite it, half the dps of it is gone?

Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1068 - 2014-04-18 09:15:08 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Flyinghotpocket wrote:
so literally how about a response to the gila

web one medium drone and kite it, half the dps of it is gone?


The massive drone hitpoint and damage bonus and the ability to carry spares mitigates this to a large degree, but the fact that lights are unbonused and weak and you have dripped from 7.5 effective to 4 is more of an issue, precision heavy missiles will help, but for those who do not have T2 heavy launchers, the only valid option will be rapid lights.

I hate to see a good ship given bonuses, but then ends up being forced into limited fits that do not play to the current playstyle.

Solution give 100% damage and hitpoint bonus to light drones ( 50% for the rattlesnake)

This re enables light drones as a valid option. The implementation of the new drone number concept is incomplete without this on all ships that currently have a bonus to light missiles.

Edit:- resolve this issue and you can have a true test of the advantages of the new superdrone methodology, i believe that without this issue players will find they like it.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Ashley Animus
7th Temporal Lounge
#1069 - 2014-04-18 15:00:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Ashley Animus
Flyinghotpocket wrote:
so literally how about a response to the gila

web one medium drone and kite it, half the dps of it is gone?


Whats so wrong with having the Ewar on your drones instead of yourself? All drones in bay will most likely have more HP than the ship.

Edit: Did some quick math.

Shield: 1005 = Eff HP: 1436
Armor: 2160 = Eff Hp: 3323
Structure: 5325

Total Eff Hp: 10084

You can fit 10 medium drones in the bay so,

10084 x 10 = 100840 Effective hp inside your drone bay if you carry only Hammerheads

Edit 2: Augmented hammers are pretty cheap and they have numbers that will scare you.
Cannibal Kane
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1070 - 2014-04-18 16:21:30 UTC
And No response from CCP yet?

Vigilant. The -150 PG Nerf.

The ship is already rarely used ship don't make it used even less CCP.

"Kane is the End Boss of Highsec." -Psychotic Monk
Flyinghotpocket
Small Focused Memes
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#1071 - 2014-04-18 16:56:04 UTC
Ashley Animus wrote:
Flyinghotpocket wrote:
so literally how about a response to the gila

web one medium drone and kite it, half the dps of it is gone?


Whats so wrong with having the Ewar on your drones instead of yourself? All drones in bay will most likely have more HP than the ship.

Edit: Did some quick math.

Shield: 1005 = Eff HP: 1436
Armor: 2160 = Eff Hp: 3323
Structure: 5325

Total Eff Hp: 10084

You can fit 10 medium drones in the bay so,

10084 x 10 = 100840 Effective hp inside your drone bay if you carry only Hammerheads

Edit 2: Augmented hammers are pretty cheap and they have numbers that will scare you.

pointless information is pointless. has nothing to do with my question.

Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro
Ashley Animus
7th Temporal Lounge
#1072 - 2014-04-18 18:23:44 UTC
Flyinghotpocket wrote:
Ashley Animus wrote:
Flyinghotpocket wrote:
so literally how about a response to the gila

web one medium drone and kite it, half the dps of it is gone?


Whats so wrong with having the Ewar on your drones instead of yourself? All drones in bay will most likely have more HP than the ship.

Edit: Did some quick math.

Shield: 1005 = Eff HP: 1436
Armor: 2160 = Eff Hp: 3323
Structure: 5325

Total Eff Hp: 10084

You can fit 10 medium drones in the bay so,

10084 x 10 = 100840 Effective hp inside your drone bay if you carry only Hammerheads

Edit 2: Augmented hammers are pretty cheap and they have numbers that will scare you.

pointless information is pointless. has nothing to do with my question.


The more Ewar is off your back the better. And the drones can take it with ease.
Flyinghotpocket
Small Focused Memes
Ragequit Cancel Sub
#1073 - 2014-04-18 18:28:17 UTC
Ashley Animus wrote:


The more Ewar is off your back the better. And the drones can take it with ease.

english do you speak it?

Amarr Militia Representative - A jar of nitro
Ashley Animus
7th Temporal Lounge
#1074 - 2014-04-18 19:02:18 UTC
Speak, do you english it?
Rab See
Stellar Dynamics
#1075 - 2014-04-18 19:08:38 UTC
Cannibal Kane wrote:
And No response from CCP yet?

Vigilant. The -150 PG Nerf.

The ship is already rarely used ship don't make it used even less CCP.


The ships value increases a LOT now that its unique in its webbing cruiser role. Essential for WH and Gate work.

The Ashimuu uses will have to 'change' to make it effective, but its still unique.

The Gila is a pocket battleship of delight, I love it, as noted - augmented hammerheads = killer drones. See the prices rocket?

Cynabal - yawn all over, yawn again. Its nerfed, then as if by magic, a totally unwanted bonus appears - nothing unique there. Prices falling like the old Phantasm.

Thanks Rise, it seems that you want the Machariel to be equally yawn.
KaDa en Bauldry
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1076 - 2014-04-18 20:23:38 UTC
Cannibal Kane wrote:
And No response from CCP yet?
Since there is no response from CCP yet, anyone else taking up the task, and explaining to me
CCP Rise wrote:
The Gila will still have plenty of PVE application and I think you'd be hard-pressed to find examples of lost capability for the rest of these ships resulting from the proposed changes.

what exactly these PVE applications are, that I shouldn't rather do in an Ishtar (or another ship), save for maybe when I'm facing Angel rats? (And even then, shield Ishtar with the new low-slot omnis sounds intriguing.)

Don't forget about ship insurance before undocking. Don't forget about copy-paste saving before posting.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1077 - 2014-04-18 23:26:45 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
KaDa en Bauldry wrote:
Cannibal Kane wrote:
And No response from CCP yet?
Since there is no response from CCP yet, anyone else taking up the task, and explaining to me
CCP Rise wrote:
The Gila will still have plenty of PVE application and I think you'd be hard-pressed to find examples of lost capability for the rest of these ships resulting from the proposed changes.

what exactly these PVE applications are, that I shouldn't rather do in an Ishtar (or another ship), save for maybe when I'm facing Angel rats? (And even then, shield Ishtar with the new low-slot omnis sounds intriguing.)



If the issue of light missiles is resolved, to enable frigate management, then the new drone mechanic (superdrones) will allow the Gila to retain mobility without being tied to nursing sentries, it will roam the battlefield dealing destruction rather than trying to behave like a battleship.

If this works as I believe it can, we will see Ishtar and Stratios pilots looking at the ship with envy.

One small change needed to the way light drones are handled on this ship and you have a worldbeater.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#1078 - 2014-04-19 02:08:29 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
One small change needed to the way light drones are handled on this ship and you have a worldbeater.


Which is the exact reason why you will not - and should not - see that change happen.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#1079 - 2014-04-19 02:35:49 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
One small change needed to the way light drones are handled on this ship and you have a worldbeater.


Which is the exact reason why you will not - and should not - see that change happen.



Where is it decided that making all the ships and weapons indistinguishable from each other and all equally bland decided?

Who claims that role to decide for all?

Because it is totally clear that that is NOT CCP's intention.

Different and interesting and desirable does not mean wrong.

Different does not mean overpowered.

The ishtar will be as good or better but different, many will prefer this, is them having that choice an issue?

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#1080 - 2014-04-19 03:13:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
A "worldbeater" is bad and wrong. A ship that can handle anything you throw at it is bad and wrong. Having no significant drawbacks to go along with benefits is bad and wrong. If you have even a tiny bit of balancing sense, you should already understand this without having to be told.

The Guristas ships are gaining a significant strength. This strength requires a proportional weakness. For the Gila, that weakness includes four unbonused light drones.