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Dev blog: Building better Worlds

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Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#901 - 2014-04-16 14:07:21 UTC
Antihrist Pripravnik wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Antihrist Pripravnik wrote:
Do they use same ME levels as default invention other BPOs - yes.
Do you have a chance based mechanic to get the copy - no, same as other BPOs.
Can you obtain them through gameplay - no, same as other BPOs.
If you can not obtain them through gameplay, are they seeded by NPCs on the market - no, but they are still available on the market if you want to buy one.
Looks very similar to me.


T2 BPOs do not have the -4/-4 level of T2 BPCs and you know that I was referring to it.
T2 BPOs are copied with 100% success rate, unlike inventing a T2 BPC to get a T2 copy.
T2 BPOs are not available on the NPC market, with a fixed price that serves as a ISK sink, available in unlimited quantities and at all times like T1 BPOs are.

You are overrating T2 BPOs way too much.
There is a T2 Large Armor repairer BPO for sale right now, asking 40b.
A T2 LAR sells for 1.3m. With that in mind assuming 0 waste and assuming all isk is profit it would take about 30770 units to make 40b ad 30770 units would take 8 years to make.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Halia Thorak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#902 - 2014-04-16 14:07:34 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Antihrist Pripravnik wrote:
Do they use same ME levels as default invention other BPOs - yes.
Do you have a chance based mechanic to get the copy - no, same as other BPOs.
Can you obtain them through gameplay - no, same as other BPOs.
If you can not obtain them through gameplay, are they seeded by NPCs on the market - no, but they are still available on the market if you want to buy one.
Looks very similar to me.

The biggest difference is that they're a horrible investment, unlike most other BPOs.


So the real question that everyone is wondering, how many BPO's do you have?

I really only see two camps in this post those who control the market with a granfathered mechanic that should have been removed ages ago. And those that invent as part of CCP's bandied fix to to make sure PVP prices stay relatively constant.

No where else in eve did CCP allow a mechanic to be totally changed but leave the old mechanic in place and i think that this "rebalancing" is a perfect time to finally do away with them. The profits T2 BPO owners make overtop of anyone inventing is already enormous, not even including the amount of extra time and money we have to sink to make these T2 BPC's. The talk of buying a BPO is also silly, I sold some during the years of the lottery they were expensive but reasonable back then. Now it would take at least 5 years of running that BPO 24/7 to start seeing green on your investment.

TLDR:

Remove T2 BPO's there is already a system in the game for replacing them. They're a sunk cost and should of been long ago.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#903 - 2014-04-16 14:07:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Antihrist Pripravnik wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Antihrist Pripravnik wrote:
Do they use same ME levels as default invention other BPOs - yes.
Do you have a chance based mechanic to get the copy - no, same as other BPOs.
Can you obtain them through gameplay - no, same as other BPOs.
If you can not obtain them through gameplay, are they seeded by NPCs on the market - no, but they are still available on the market if you want to buy one.
Looks very similar to me.


T2 BPOs do not have the -4/-4 level of T2 BPCs and you know that I was referring to it.
T2 BPOs are copied with 100% success rate, unlike inventing a T2 BPC to get a T2 copy.
T2 BPOs are not available on the NPC market, with a fixed price that serves as a ISK sink, available in unlimited quantities and at all times like T1 BPOs are.


1) Correct, in this regard they are the same as every other BPO in the game however.

2) They also have the slowest copy rate (by far) of any BPO in the game.

3) T2 BPO's are, however, bought and sold all the time between players and help drive the EVE economy.

Currently T2 BPO's are simply another BPO, and confer no huge advantage to the owner due to slow production rates and inability to make copies to sell in anything close to a timely fashion. They have a reasonable profit margin, but produce only enough to supply a small fraction of the demand for the items they create.

T2 BPO = higher profit, lower volume
Invention= lower profit, higher volume

I'll also remind you that originally T2 BPO acquisition was indeed tied to a game mechanic (research agents), and was chance based with player decisions/actions affecting the chance of success/acquisition (JUST AS INVENTION JOBS ARE CURRENTLY).

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Juwi Kotch
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#904 - 2014-04-16 14:10:07 UTC
My cap ship and cap ship component BPCs just became a whole lot more precious. I'll bunker them till after the summer expansion.

"Our lives are not our own. We are bound to others, past and present. And by each crime, and every kindness, we birth our future." Sonmi-451
Perkin Warbeck
Higher Than Everest
#905 - 2014-04-16 14:11:34 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Perkin Warbeck wrote:
I will wait for further blogs but I'm actually with DInsdale on this one [quietly stabs himself in eye].

Unless you have some serious firepower then queuing up a job that lasts more than 24 hours (the time it takes a war dec to come into effect) presents a bit of a risk in low sec. Even if you get the notification of the war dec in time to take your POS down you will have to abandon the job to get your BPO out with a consequential loss of minerals as a result.

Then keep using station services.

Right now, POS-based manufacturing is all kinds of stupid unless the POS (or, more accurately, some special assembly array) is required in the process; after the patch, it actually has a purpose (and some of the stupidity might even be removed depending on how some of the future devblogs turn out). So that is no reason to suddenly abandon everything POS related that you planned on doing before the changes were announced. If you thought it worth-while doing before, it'll be worth-while doing afterwards as well.

Kaius Fero wrote:
Yet.. you still have time to post on forums all day long.
Just further proof that staying competitive is not a second job.


Just reread my post and was actually baffled by my own lack of logic. The risk I mention is there now and the new changes don't actually affect that at all.

Sorry Dinsdale you are on your own. It's late in Australia.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#906 - 2014-04-16 14:14:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Valterra Craven wrote:
Tippa the issue was never about market share, the volume of the market doesn't matter to a single seller. What matters to the single seller is MARGIN.
…and the changes in T2 BPO copying speed won't affect that margin. You're still competing against other inventors since invention is still what will set the market price.

Quote:
T2 BPO have margin advantages that no one else has in game. IF seller A can produce item 1 for 250k and seller B can produce 1 item for 150k he can sell out of his entire stock below the production cost of Seller A and STILL be profitable. That's the problem here.

It's only a problem if it leaves Seller A without customers. The thing about the BPO portion of production is that it doesn't have the volume to do so, so A still sells his goods at a useful margin. Seller B would also be pretty stupid to undercut A that much since that just means he earns far less than he otherwise could.

Halia Thorak wrote:
So the real question that everyone is wondering, how many BPO's do you have?
Zero, because they're a waste of money and offer me no useful advantage over the invention I do.
As a rough guesstimate, to cover the array of stuff I invent, I would have to sink some 2–3 trillion ISK into BPOs. If I had 2–3 trillion ISK, I would do something far more entertaining with them than let them sit around and not be paid off until 2038.
Caldari 5
D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F. S.A.S
Affirmative.
#907 - 2014-04-16 14:17:16 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
you're all idiots if you think that the pos congestion fees are going to be anything but zero until you do something like try to stuff an alliance's worth of battleship production into a small pos with a single assembly array

wait to start wigging the **** out until you see the cost devblog

I just think that the sliding scale of number of jobs trying to be Put through vs the number of labs/arrays on the tower vs the Fuel Cost will be an interesting equation once we have the Figures Devblog so that we can start Crunching actual numbers.

Small POS -> Medium POS -> Large POS
2 Arrays -> 6 Arrays -> 12 Arrays(or what ever is currently normal for a POS)
With a constant of 40 Jobs per Week? = what is the Congestion %?
80 Jobs per Week? Congestion %?
160 Jobs per Week? Congestion %?
320 Jobs per Week? Congestion %?
640 Jobs per Week? Congestion %?

(Fuel Cost based on the POS size divided by the number of jobs) + the Congestion Fees

Like I said for a small or one man Corp and his alts, perhaps a small POS with only a couple of Labs/arrays overloaded to 60 Jobs per week is only 1% and is cheaper than running the Larger Tower/s at 0%

Again all speculation until we see the figures blog
Salpad
Carebears with Attitude
#908 - 2014-04-16 14:17:16 UTC
So Blueprints need to be stored in the POS to use them there?

What constitutes use? Are we talking ME/PE/copy work only, or also manufacturing?

If it's the later, forcing me to store my potentially high-value BPO in the POS, then I can see some benefits in making a lot of BPCs somewhere down in a station, and then store those in the POS instead, and produce from them, thus not risking losing my precious BPO.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#909 - 2014-04-16 14:18:24 UTC
Kaius Fero wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Sizeof Void wrote:

CCP has repeatedly tried, and failed, to entice high-sec players to take more risks and engage in PVP. But, the highest priority of high-sec players has always been "safety" - this is why they stay in high-sec. No reason to expect this player behavior to change.

I've been watching a similar safety-vs-efficiency trade-off with high-sec mining. Retrievers/Mackinaws and Covetors/Hulks are still the most commonly used mining ships, but Procurer/Skiff usage has definitely been on a steady rise, as ganking continues to spread.


Sadly you are quite right and these players will be the first to flock over SC once it's out.

Also is the main reason why we keep throwing money at SC at an insane rate, the beauty of industry and science in EVE is already vanished.. EVE now is more about being the biggest badass and villan including the excesive ussage of mayo. Not to mention the fact that for being competitive you have to take EVE as a secondary job, not a game.


Premise: I pay subs for EvE, in my personal (that is, I don't want to convince anyone else I am "right", it's just me) opinion if a game it's worth playing, then it's worth paying. Else, I won't play it even for free.

Said that: it's two different games. I have paid many subs per month to CCP since my beginning years ago and don't feel any "remorse" for having done so. EvE has it's distinctive personality well beyond "bullies" or "griefers" or whatever funny name people give to others. EvE - to me, again - missed a dogfight mode. Inexcusable to even propose WiS when your spaceships are just mouse clicker submarines physics based. Not saying WiS is bad - it's probably nice to have, but a spaceships game without nice spaceships duels imo misses the target. Still good for trading, manufacturing and other though.

SC has its own very different personality and I deeply wait to be able and pew pew on those juicy ships I have preodered.
I have preodered a number of ships and hangars (RL money currently is not an issue) including the one featured in the awesome display they held at PAX.
I am not convinced by its manufacturing model, to me it seems shallow and too little market oriented, but we'll see.
In the mean time I'll trade goods on my massive merchant ship (it even includes a dogfight ship in its bay!) and pew pew mostly with the Hornet. If industry and markets will be good, then I'll just be happier!

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Dast Aldurald
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#910 - 2014-04-16 14:18:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Dast Aldurald
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
Dast Aldurald wrote:
ok, all this is interesting but: 1) no standing needed for pos? really


I have a suggestion that would let CCP reward those who (like me too) grinded standings or have standings-raise professions and so on:

Idea Have the new POS slots fees depend (in a minor way) also from standings. Idea

So, everyone can put up a POS but those with standings get a discount.


Voilà, two birds with one stone! P


i have a better suggestion: let the pos lines fees not be at all, cause we already paying for fuel, starbase charters, and we all are at risk of ofwars cause we'll have bpo's on poses.

smb wrote about the game is becoming second work. i agree, now you cant just fuel you pos and leave for a week you'll also need to take your bpos away cause if you forget to, smb can come and you'll lose both bpos and pos place
Halia Thorak
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#911 - 2014-04-16 14:20:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Halia Thorak
Tippia wrote:
It's only a problem if it leaves Seller A without customers. The thing about the BPO portion of production is that it doesn't have the volume to do so, so A still sells his goods at a useful margin. Seller B would also be pretty stupid to undercut A that much since that just means he earns far less than he otherwise could..


This happens alot more often in trade hubs outside of Jita, someone who want to put more product up just undercuts the crazy out of the inventors to clear his stock and put up more. He then puts his next batch at a once again competitive price. If everyone could only invent this would be fine because he would now be losing isk, but he doesn't.

Tippia wrote:
Halia Thorak wrote:
So the real question that everyone is wondering, how many BPO's do you have?
Zero, because they're a waste of money and offer me no useful advantage over the invention I do.


Wait so you're arguing for the side of keeping T2 BPO's in just for the sake of arguing?
Valterra Craven
#912 - 2014-04-16 14:23:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Valterra Craven
Tippia wrote:
and the changes in T2 BPO copying speed won't affect that margin. You're still competing against other inventors since invention is still what will set the market price.


The point is that T2 BPOs confer a significant advantage in terms of margin when produced off them. The question then becomes is why this mechanic still exists given the state of the market today and the fact that t2 BPO's are no longer being given out. I still have seen nothing to suggest that CCP has curtailed the favoritism of certain groups of players since the BoB t2 BPO scandal. (I lived through that era being part of BoB)

Tippia wrote:

It's only a problem if it leaves Seller A without customers. The thing about the BPO portion of production is that it doesn't have the volume to do so, so A still sells his goods at a useful margin. Seller B would also be pretty stupid to undercut A that much since that just means he earns far less than he otherwise could.


I'm not suggesting that Seller B is going to immediately sell his goods 10-20% bellow seller A. The point is that seller B will ALWAYS be able to undercut Seller A by a significant margin and will always "win" the .01 isk price wars.

Therefore Seller B will always have customers, and always have margin. The same can not be said of inventors.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#913 - 2014-04-16 14:25:35 UTC
Halia Thorak wrote:
This happens alot more often in trade hubs outside of Jita, someone who want to put more product up just undercuts the crazy out of the inventors to clear his stock and put up more. He then puts his next batch at a once again competitive price. If everyone could only invent this would be fine because he would now be losing isk, but he doesn't.
Sure, if you trade in a low-volume market, you run into low-volume issues. The solution to that is to not trade in low-volume markets.

Quote:
Wait so you're arguing for the side of keeping T2 BPO's in just for the sake of arguing?
No, I'm arguing for keeping them because there is no reason to remove them from the game; no way to remove them that is equitable to those who have invested in them; and because looking at the T2 products that lack BPOs suggests that removing them will actually hurt my business.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#914 - 2014-04-16 14:26:05 UTC
Querns wrote:
Hint: Star Citizen is a scam. They are walking away with your money.


They are making modules and show them in public and then make them available for everyone to download and toy with.

In the end if it turns into a scam but entertrained people for 10 hours it has just delivered AS MUCH AS a regular single player game.

EvE Online portal | EvE markets tutorials
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#915 - 2014-04-16 14:26:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Tippia wrote:
Valterra Craven wrote:
Tippa the issue was never about market share, the volume of the market doesn't matter to a single seller. What matters to the single seller is MARGIN.
…and the changes in T2 BPO copying speed won't affect that margin. You're still competing against other inventors since invention is still what will set the market price.

Quote:
T2 BPO have margin advantages that no one else has in game. IF seller A can produce item 1 for 250k and seller B can produce 1 item for 150k he can sell out of his entire stock below the production cost of Seller A and STILL be profitable. That's the problem here.

It's only a problem if it leaves Seller A without customers. The thing about the BPO portion of production is that it doesn't have the volume to do so, so A still sells his goods at a useful margin. Seller B would also be pretty stupid to undercut A that much since that just means he earns far less than he otherwise could.

Halia Thorak wrote:
So the real question that everyone is wondering, how many BPO's do you have?
Zero, because they're a waste of money and offer me no useful advantage over the invention I do.

On the flip side of the coin, I have 2 T2 BPO's, the Pilgrim and the Guardian.

At best, I can produce one ship a day (roughly) from each of these BPO's.

I could possibly (if I make all of my own materials, which is very time consuming and requires an alt devoted to the task and even then 1 alt can't produce it all) have an advantage over invention of 10 to 20% margin on the selling price.

Of course I don't. I sell at a competitive price because I'm not really into cutting off my nose to spite my face.

My 25 to 30 ships of each type produced each month don't cover a fraction of the demand in Amarr, let alone Jita (or other trade hubs). I can bring prices in the area down slightly for a day or two if I stock pile the ships for a month and dump them en mass... but then again an inventor that has had good luck, made good decisions, and supplies his own materials could easily do the same.

Bottom line, when I devote my attention to it, I can make far more money through invention. The T2 BPO is just handy when I'm being too lazy to focus on production, and provides a nice supplement to my invention activities.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#916 - 2014-04-16 14:27:23 UTC
why is this stupid t2 bpo discussion here

these changes are entirely irrelevant unless the copy time for a t2 bpo is significantly lower than the current build time; even if it is slightly faster unless there's queueing coming in another devblog the slightly increased potential supply will be counteracted by the increased need to install new jobs, leaving the thing idle

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Antisocial Malkavian
Antisocial Malkavians
#917 - 2014-04-16 14:29:27 UTC
Quote:

This is a good death. There's no
shame in this, in a man's death. A
man who's done fine works. We're
making a better world. All of them,
better worlds.


seems appropriate

And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit.

Christopher Mabata
Northern Accounts and Systems
#918 - 2014-04-16 14:32:30 UTC
I haven't read through all the comments yet so i'm not sure if someone already suggested this but if your going to remove the slot layout and replace it with multiplicative values per job running at said location one thing you could do to give Null / Low sec the advantage is drastically cut down on the costs so they don't multiply to nearly as much with more jobs running.

Theoretically if you gave Null Stations a 70-80% Reduction in costs than even with more jobs running the percent reduction means that there is still a profit margin despite the multiplications, it also avoids possible imbalance through free or non multiplicative runs so one person with dozens of alts can't have 100 jobs going at the cost it would be if that was the only Job running in the station at all.

And Maybe for low sec a 25-40% Reduction, makes it worth risking if you want the profit margin but also more dangerous for you to move your goods in most circumstances.

Unrelated sidenote - Thanks for implementing these changes I used to be an industrialist so i know how bad the shoe needed shinning in this case, keep up the good work CCP.

♣ Small Gang PVP, Large Fleet PVP, Black Ops, Incursions, Trade, and Industry ♣ 70% Lethal / 30% Super-Snuggly / 110% No idea what im doing ♣

This Message Brought to you by a sweet and sour bittervet
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#919 - 2014-04-16 14:35:29 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
why is this stupid t2 bpo discussion here
We have insufficient details on the actual changes for any reasonable discussion.

So an unreasonable discussion broke out instead.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#920 - 2014-04-16 14:35:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Valterra Craven wrote:
The point is that T2 BPOs confer a significant advantage in terms of margin when produced off them.
…and the counterpoint is that this margin is eaten up almost completely by the cost of the BPO, to the point where it's a very efficient way of not getting any ROI at all.

Quote:
The question then becomes is why this mechanic still exists given the state of the market today and the fact that t2 BPO's are no longer being given out.
They exist because, as mentioned, there's no reason to remove them and no way to do so equitably, and because they are just BPOs — there is no special mechanic that still exists. This mechanic exists for the same reason as why the mechanics of a Raven BPO exists.

Quote:
I'm not suggesting that Seller B is going to immediately sell his goods 10-20% bellow seller A. The point is that seller B will ALWAYS be able to undercut Seller A by a significant margin and will always "win" the .01 isk price wars.
…and then he will run out of stock and A will get his sales, so he will also always have customers and margin, because it is the inventors that actually control the market.

Ranger 1 wrote:
On the flip side of the coin, I have 2 T2 BPO's, the Pilgrim and the Guardian.

At best, I can produce one ship a day (roughly) from each of these BPO's.
As a point of comparison, I invent Guardians. By pure accident, I managed to queue up 38 of them this month alongside the 10 other T2 ships I was going for (note to self: check which BPOs have already been copied before tossing a new run into the mixer). My biggest problem is not making money, but having all my slots clogged with these #"/&% CPU and armour plate components because I'm too stubborn to outsource that part. P