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Dev blog: Building better Worlds

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Drailen
Doomheim
#441 - 2014-04-15 19:52:53 UTC
In all this industry development work, is there any chance of finally getting some form of API to provide us with the ME, PE and runs of all our blueprints?

The S&I window can provide this information so it seems like a good candidate for the API (or CREST).
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#442 - 2014-04-15 19:53:13 UTC
gifter Penken wrote:
Amber Solaire wrote:
theman428 wrote:
Amber Solaire wrote:
Correct me if I`m wrong

If more people decide to use stations for safety, won`t this slow down overall production,
thus making a lot of CCP`s great ideas the reverse of an improvement to Industry?



no it will just make it more expensive for those seeking slots



More expense=less people can afford to do it=reduction of profits=no point trying to produce any more (by newer players)

That is not any improvement at all




I suspect you will see a near equilibrium established where the high sec station slot prices increase to the point that the hassle of running a high sec alt corp with a POS to do research become profitable enough for people to do it.


What you are NOT going to see is the intended "people putting expensive BPOs into low/null sec POS then losing them to attack".


And what happens when some griefer corp, who is always looking for industrial corps to attack. spends a couple billion on small POS's, anchors them, then deadzones a few systems, and says "come at us". When there are very few moons available to put up POS's at in high sec, that is going to create a massive demand for station mfg, and then this huge cost is incurred by the majority of the player base, while those that work with the griefing corps, well, they get a POS available , and a massive cost advantage over those forced to use the station mfg.

Brilliant system.
Null sec game mechanics come en masse to high sec.
I was right, the PoCo's were just the first of many steps to ruin high sec industry.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#443 - 2014-04-15 19:53:38 UTC
Dersen Lowery wrote:
Bad Bobby wrote:
Amber Solaire wrote:
More expense=less people can afford to do it=reduction of profits=no point trying to produce any more (by newer players)

That is not any improvement at all

Given how many stations there are out there, I doubt that any pricing problem couldn't be solved by moving a few jumps further away from the busy systems.


"The freighting I do is free" is just a variant of "the minerals I mine are free."

What this will do is change the system so that instead of there being one variable to consider--how close am I to a market hub?--there are two. As of this change, there will be a tension between the added cost of manufacturing close to market and the added cost of manufacturing far away from market.

The result will be rings of manufacturing around market hubs consisting of people who account for their logistics costs, and a bunch of essentially random noise consisting of people who don't and people who are serving local niche markets.

Bear in mind the difference between spending 5 days mining your own materials, and 5 minutes ferrying your BPC's in a shuttle a few jumps.

However, human nature being what it is, this could well promote the emergence of new local trade hubs... which would be a plus.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
gifter Penken
State War Academy
Caldari State
#444 - 2014-04-15 19:56:14 UTC
Bad Bobby wrote:
Amber Solaire wrote:
theman428 wrote:
Amber Solaire wrote:
Correct me if I`m wrong

If more people decide to use stations for safety, won`t this slow down overall production,
thus making a lot of CCP`s great ideas the reverse of an improvement to Industry?



no it will just make it more expensive for those seeking slots



More expense=less people can afford to do it=reduction of profits=no point trying to produce any more (by newer players)

That is not any improvement at all

Given how many stations there are out there, I doubt that any pricing problem couldn't be solved by moving a few jumps further away from the busy systems.



research and copy slots are booked months in advance. It can be very difficult finding a high sec station that is within 10-20 jumps of a trade hub, with available office and available manufacturing slots. Remember, the office slots are still limited.

Alt corp with super hardened high sec large POS will be the way to go.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#445 - 2014-04-15 19:56:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
And what happens when some griefer corp, who is always looking for industrial corps to attack. spends a couple billion on small POS's, anchors them, then deadzones a few systems, and says "come at us".
What happens is that they get wardecced and lose their billion-ISK investment in a matter of hours.

Quote:
Null sec game mechanics come en masse to high sec.
I was right, the PoCo's were just the first of many steps to ruin high sec industry.
POCOs did not in any way ruin highsec industry, nor do these changes. So you weren't so much “right” as “predictable”.
Also, how is it a bad thing that mechanics become more consistent across all space?
Chanina
ASGARD HEAVY INDUSTRIES
#446 - 2014-04-15 19:57:12 UTC
theman428 wrote:

my apologies i mis read it. i posted something similar to someone else and i thought u had quoted that one


accepted.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#447 - 2014-04-15 19:57:31 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
gifter Penken wrote:
Amber Solaire wrote:
theman428 wrote:
Amber Solaire wrote:
Correct me if I`m wrong

If more people decide to use stations for safety, won`t this slow down overall production,
thus making a lot of CCP`s great ideas the reverse of an improvement to Industry?



no it will just make it more expensive for those seeking slots



More expense=less people can afford to do it=reduction of profits=no point trying to produce any more (by newer players)

That is not any improvement at all




I suspect you will see a near equilibrium established where the high sec station slot prices increase to the point that the hassle of running a high sec alt corp with a POS to do research become profitable enough for people to do it.


What you are NOT going to see is the intended "people putting expensive BPOs into low/null sec POS then losing them to attack".


And what happens when some griefer corp, who is always looking for industrial corps to attack. spends a couple billion on small POS's, anchors them, then deadzones a few systems, and says "come at us". When there are very few moons available to put up POS's at in high sec, that is going to create a massive demand for station mfg, and then this huge cost is incurred by the majority of the player base, while those that work with the griefing corps, well, they get a POS available , and a massive cost advantage over those forced to use the station mfg.

Brilliant system.
Null sec game mechanics come en masse to high sec.
I was right, the PoCo's were just the first of many steps to ruin high sec industry.

Considering how quick and easy it will be to move BPC's via shuttle several jumps in any direction from a market hub this would be completely impractical. Do you have any concept of what it would cost, or more importantly the time that would be involved in set up and maintenance, trying to blanket every moon in every system within a 5 or 10 jump radius of Jita? We are talking a mere 5 or 10 minutes of travel time.

Not really a cause for concern.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
oohthey ioh
Doomheim
#448 - 2014-04-15 19:57:35 UTC
Tetania wrote:
Ok. I'm intrigued and I'll wait patiently for the rest of the plan to be unveiled.

As someone who builds Titans I'd just like to get another voice behind considerations for POS building.

Reducing copy time would certainly be viable for Hull Building after a brief delay to get copies started after the first post patch build that will be fine.

Components tho. Assuming a 1man corp which is going to be a must without lockdown. You still need to keep either 30Bil of BPOs in a POS anc choose betwen gambling on a successful defense or destroying around 20Bil in minerals to retrieve the BPOs while the POS is being reinforced. Or drastically increase your hauling from Refine minerals in station and haul to POS in system. To Refine minerals in Station and haul through a stargate to an Amarr station and then haul components from station to POS to build the ship off a BPC.

I already use 8 freighters multiboxed and consider the existing movement excessive. This would be hundreds of trips.

Upping the copies on a component BPC to 45-50 would be start as long as copy time is <= build time.

Otherwise allowing mineral recovery when jobs are cancelled would be an option but it forces a very very high attention level on POSes and makes eve a literal job to avoid catastrophic loss of assets.

I know supercap builders are the 1% but please don't make the extreme edge cases of ****** mechanics worse for us.



then copy in station??????? and put bpcs in the pos??
Rekkr Nordgard
Steelforge Heavy Industries
#449 - 2014-04-15 19:58:24 UTC
You know, CCP could have just banned the use of BPOs worth more than 100 mil in low/null POSes starting with the summer expansion and the resulting gameplay would have been identical, but with less debate.
Gamer4liff
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#450 - 2014-04-15 19:58:52 UTC
I am overjoyed to see CCP addressing Manufacturing issues after all these years. I can't wait to see how much more efficient POS manufacturing is made. I dabbled in it previously with 2 of the 4 things I make, but if it's made even more viable, that's even better.

With the implied increased potency of POS Labs/Manufacturing it only makes sense to require more risk in using them. I'm not really sure what the argument is for removing standings requirements, but whatever, as long as clutter does not become too much of an issue, and there are still a reasonable amount of spots to take within reasonable distance from hubs. I'll be interested to see the new statistics on the POS modules, also this "Team" stuff. UI looks busy but still much better than what we have now.

For what it's worth, as a long-time manufacturer, I support CCP in this endeavor.

A comprehensive proposal for balancing T2 Production: here
Bill Lane
Strategic Insanity
FUBAR.
#451 - 2014-04-15 19:59:31 UTC
I have nothing of value to add, other than I'm so excited about FINALLY getting a major indy expansion that as a 29 year old man I kinda want to jump around like a 12 year old girl getting a pony.....go ahead and run that through your mind. Now you may laugh or cry, your choice.

Military Gamers gaming community

FUBAR's Website
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#452 - 2014-04-15 20:00:02 UTC
gifter Penken wrote:
Bad Bobby wrote:
Amber Solaire wrote:
theman428 wrote:
Amber Solaire wrote:
Correct me if I`m wrong

If more people decide to use stations for safety, won`t this slow down overall production,
thus making a lot of CCP`s great ideas the reverse of an improvement to Industry?



no it will just make it more expensive for those seeking slots



More expense=less people can afford to do it=reduction of profits=no point trying to produce any more (by newer players)

That is not any improvement at all

Given how many stations there are out there, I doubt that any pricing problem couldn't be solved by moving a few jumps further away from the busy systems.



research and copy slots are booked months in advance. It can be very difficult finding a high sec station that is within 10-20 jumps of a trade hub, with available office and available manufacturing slots. Remember, the office slots are still limited.

Alt corp with super hardened high sec large POS will be the way to go.

That waiting time will be non-existent, and you certainly don't need an office to manufacture or research... it simply makes it easier for multiple people to be involved. For researching especially there will be little to no need for anyone else to be involved now anyway, considering the new interface.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#453 - 2014-04-15 20:01:25 UTC
theman428 wrote:
Remove the ability for players to use stations to safely store their blueprints without putting them at risk in Starbase structures. Players will still be able to start their jobs remotely (via the use of Supply Chain Management and Scientific Networking skills), but will now have to move their blueprints directly into the starbase structures that require it, like other materials.

Worst change in this feature.


another Super capital nerf... thanks CCP.... with this change if you want to produce a supercapital ship you know have to risk all of your assets whcih can be hundreds of billions of isk. or spend months copying your blueprints to build 1 ship...


this has now given eve online 50% of the work for Supercap Proliferation... this changes coupled with the change to compression... expect price increases of 50%-100% of current hull values. of supercarriers and titans if they are produced at all...



Because supercap proliferation isn't a problem. amirite? Make your copies in station. Build in POS using copies. Why are so many people not getting this?

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
oohthey ioh
Doomheim
#454 - 2014-04-15 20:04:09 UTC
everyone shut the **** up, you lock down your ****** BPO's in station, and make copes in the station then use you BPC in the pos
oohthey ioh
Doomheim
#455 - 2014-04-15 20:04:57 UTC
Rekkr Nordgard wrote:
You know, CCP could have just banned the use of BPOs worth more than 100 mil in low/null POSes starting with the summer expansion and the resulting gameplay would have been identical, but with less debate.


use BPC
Rekkr Nordgard
Steelforge Heavy Industries
#456 - 2014-04-15 20:05:35 UTC
oohthey ioh wrote:
everyone shut the **** up, you lock down your ****** BPO's in station, and make copes in the station then use you BPC in the pos


Because adding valueless steps and making industry more complicated is what we wanted in an indy expansion.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#457 - 2014-04-15 20:07:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Rekkr Nordgard wrote:
Because adding valueless steps and making industry more complicated is what we wanted in an indy expansion.

They're not valueless, and adding in some meaningful complexity doesn't hurt at all.

It's a choice that you can make — play it slow and safe or do a quick gamble.
oohthey ioh
Doomheim
#458 - 2014-04-15 20:07:47 UTC
Rekkr Nordgard wrote:
oohthey ioh wrote:
everyone shut the **** up, you lock down your ****** BPO's in station, and make copes in the station then use you BPC in the pos


Because adding valueless steps and making industry more complicated is what we wanted in an indy expansion.



then take the risk of using the bpo in the pos? the whole piont of the copys is for safe movement + inventing
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#459 - 2014-04-15 20:08:13 UTC
This is amazing.
While it comes across as overwhelmingly positive, I still can't help but echo the sentiment of killing/weakening secondary player professions. I can't help but want to ask if CCP considered these and thought the loss worth the gains or maybe they don't see the loss as being as significant as we naysayers see it.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#460 - 2014-04-15 20:09:12 UTC
Okay, here is something oblique that may also have some relevance to these changes.

I think this means plans will be progressing for ship painting.

Kind of a stretch, I admit. However when you consider that if ship painting via a BPC goes into full swing the strain on manufacturing slots (and associated wait times) goes up.

Now many people might not be concerned about having their new BS and it's paint BPC tied up waiting for a slot to open up in a week, but a lot of people simply won't wait. They want their painted ship now, especially since the decision to paint a ship is often an impulse purchase (even more so if they decide to make paint bpc's even more affordable, as has been suggested).

With this change waiting would no longer be a factor, and makes it much more likely that people will actually take that extra step due to the wonder of that miracle called instant gratification.

It also gives me hope that CCP will even more firmly embrace the concept of making ship painting affordable (and now convenient) enough that just about everyone will regularly take that extra step.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.