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Dev blog: Building better Worlds

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Ruric Thyase
Star Frontiers
Brotherhood of Spacers
#381 - 2014-04-15 18:53:27 UTC
Build at a POS:

Pro: you do not have to pay scaling costs from building in stations
Con: The BPO/BPC has to now be at the POS, putting it at risk

Build at a station:
Pro: The BPO is safer from wardec's and corp thiefs
Con: You have to pay the scaling cost (if any) if you are in an active industrial zone

Can't speak for capital construction, but It really doesnt seem like the end of the world people are making out to be
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#382 - 2014-04-15 18:53:45 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
However the immense good that would come out of it is that there would be a huge number of BPC's being transported around. Big smile

Shuttle pilots beware. SmileSmileSmile

So what you're saying is that now would be a good time to really crank up the production of blockade runners? P
theman428
Order .66.
Brothers of Tangra
#383 - 2014-04-15 18:54:25 UTC  |  Edited by: theman428
theman428 wrote:
sorry using your quote here but tippia not all of it is good... this will utterly destroy the ability to make supers and titans. people will have to spend months of time copying BPOs to make these ships since they cannot be produced in a station or in high sec... so tell me how thats good for the economy.

It won't destroy anything. It will delay the production of certain items by introducing a copying step (unless you want to risk it by manufacturing stuff right this second). This is good for two reasons: it creates a greater uniformity between different types of production and puts some pressure on these new “infinite” slots — it makes the bottleneck dynamic and universal rather than static and selective. It also rewards planning and forethought more, and smooths out dips and peaks in the economy.[/quote]


as it stands right now... it takes 3 days 16 hours and 53 minutes to make a 5 run copy. to build an avatar with a ME lvl 1 BPC u need 525 of 1 type of componet. if you had 5 BPOs of that componet it would take you 78 days to copy enough for 1 run on the titan not including the titan BPO itself which takes 177 days 18 hours and 40 min to copy.. so tell me how thats viable to produce ttians?

Edit these times are NPC station times ofc
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#384 - 2014-04-15 18:54:42 UTC
Mai Khumm wrote:
Before my post got thoughtfully locked by ISD from asking questions. (And received answers from Devs.)

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=337284

I was directed here!

I'll ask what couldn't be answered here!

Was this new "I don't need standings anymore to dump POSs" tested in Nullsec to prevent Alliances from dumping a POS in another Alliances territory?

With abandoned POSs, what is currently in place to prevent alliances from dumping a POS on every moon in highsec/near large tradehubs then abandoning them?

As was suggest in said thread which I will repost here since it is a good idea.

Quote:

After X days (I say 7-10) after the POS has been without fuel. The POS in question model will change to make it look abandoned. At that point, you can use the Hacking minigame to hack and "Highjack" the POS in question..


-edit-

I hope to actually get an answer to this...

I can put up a POS anywhere I like in Null Sec, not that it's a good idea of course. Blink

They've already commented that they will need to come up with a revision as to how to handle abandoned POS's.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Kadl
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#385 - 2014-04-15 18:54:51 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Kadl wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Chanina wrote:
I like the overall attitude of this dev blog but improving use of T2 BPOs further isn't something I'm looking forward to. Not if there aren't improvements to Invented BPC quality.

Meh. They get slightly higher output on items where the market is already fully controlled by invention, and it lasts maybe one expansion cycle. I don't see inventors being particularly hurt by that one.


Slightly higher output for T2 BPOs => Slightly lower output for invention => Slightly lower profits for invention.

Your argument is that we should ignore the benefits reaped by T2 BPO owners because they are small. I think that is a move in the wrong direction, and should be avoided. I would like CCP to make a commitment to avoid improving the overall use of T2 BPO for their owners. I am uncertain whether the overall situation will improve for T2 BPO owners. For example, will they end up being required to place their T2 BPO in a POS in order to reach the old levels of production.


Before we get on the "OMG T2 BPO's must die" hype train, I think we should wait and see what other changes are in store for us.


I agree that we need to see the other changes. I am not on some hype train about killing T2 BPOs. I just don't want to see them push out any inventors. I think it is fair to note some concern about T2 BPOs pressuring inventors without being accused of hyping it.

Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
In general, T2 BPO's are a good thing for this game. They only control a small market fraction for most items in game, they have been in the game soo long that generally those who own them worked hard to collect them, and they provide cheaper products for the general population on the markets they do control.

Furthermore, this change makes it riskier to utilize a T2 BPO, as it must be in a POS to use it at a POS, or it suffers the same line markups as everyone else (which you can use to encourage a T2 BPO holder to "move" his asset).


If the T2 BPOs must be risked to actually improve their production then that is great. It will mean slow deaths for them as those POSes are attacked. It seems to me that there are many pieces to this puzzle we don't have. People are noting many good specific concerns, but unannounced changes can tip the balance.
gifter Penken
State War Academy
Caldari State
#386 - 2014-04-15 18:56:22 UTC
Myxx wrote:
Btw, as far as defending a pos goes in highsec: Ever heard of a dickstar? In highsec, those can be especially annoying to deal with. your goal with risking stuff in a starbase might not work the way you think it will.


Agreed that the change will not have the effect they are looking for. It would require people play stupid, which they tend to not do often.
Myxx
The Scope
#387 - 2014-04-15 18:57:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Myxx
Chanina wrote:
Myxx wrote:
Rapscallion Jones wrote:


And meanwhile inventors wait until October or December to be competitive with your buff while they work out what to do next.

um... no. This is actually liable to be more annoying for me than it is you.


Thou you are currently making profit by selling products you build cheaper than any inventor could dream off and it gets annoying for you that you may have to change your production from 24/7 one time production to a "I have to copy them first" and then put multiple productions in parallel. Which will most likely yield a higher net output of products ... and now you are the one who might get annoyed... for being able to make more profit?

Well sorry but I don't feel sorry for that.

It doesn't quite work like that. See, my current focus is more on making the scaling cost as irrelevant as I can and to avoid putting high value assets at needless risk at the same time.

Production output isn't going to go up for me... much, anyway. If it does, it probably won't last long.
Niko Lorenzio
United Eve Directorate
#388 - 2014-04-15 18:58:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Niko Lorenzio
TigerXtrm wrote:
So many 'omg my BPO won't be safe in a station anymore!' tears :D What part of risk vs reward don't you people understand? You want safety? Enjoy copying your BPO to keep it safe.

Also I'm loving the indirect effect on the production of super caps this is going to have.


You have no clue what you're talking about. Let's talk about Risk vs. Reward. The minimal EFFICIENCY of using a POS instead of a station requires for you to:
Get a POS
Set it up
Fuel/maintain it
Deal with a ton of logistics related to manufacturing out of the POS.

There's already a ton of risk involved and the benefits are marginal. You're not only putting the structures at risk but also all the materials you use for production! The RISK is there and it's enough. You don't need to add a nightmarish amount of logistics to POS production in addition to risking billions worth of BPOs. If your industry corporation is not a one man operation and knows what it's doing, you have your BPOs locked down. If you have your BPOs locked down, you're adding a whole new (insane ly broken and stir crazy) process to manufacturing. So the only sane option is.... abandon the POS, build in station, 100 jumps away in some dead hermit system.

The CSM XI Election are now open until March 25th, 2016. Consider Niko Lorenzio for CSM XI.

CSM matters, your voice matters, your vote matters!
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#389 - 2014-04-15 19:01:09 UTC
theman428 wrote:
as it stands right now...

Did you miss the part where creating the copies needed to produce N items will be faster than producing N items directly from the BPO? “As it stands right now” is irrelevant because that's not how it will stand after the change.

So the numbers you provided are meaningless. Instead, tell me how many blueprints you need to make use of and how long it takes to produce from those blueprints, because that's what matters for how it will work in the future.
Fantome
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#390 - 2014-04-15 19:01:35 UTC
To add some content to those nice change.. can we have a new item to be abble to scan which BPO are inside POS ?

Lol
Allison A'vani
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#391 - 2014-04-15 19:02:18 UTC
Tippia wrote:
theman428 wrote:
as it stands right now...

Did you miss the part where creating the copies needed to produce N items will be faster than producing N items directly from the BPO? “As it stands right now” is irrelevant because that's not how it will stand after the change.

So the numbers you provided are meaningless. Instead, tell me how many blueprints you need to make use of and how long it takes to produce from those blueprints, because that's what matters for how it will work in the future.


They never stated that it would be faster, only that after the change goes into effect, it would not be longer.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#392 - 2014-04-15 19:03:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
theman428 wrote:
theman428 wrote:
sorry using your quote here but tippia not all of it is good... this will utterly destroy the ability to make supers and titans. people will have to spend months of time copying BPOs to make these ships since they cannot be produced in a station or in high sec... so tell me how thats good for the economy.

It won't destroy anything. It will delay the production of certain items by introducing a copying step (unless you want to risk it by manufacturing stuff right this second). This is good for two reasons: it creates a greater uniformity between different types of production and puts some pressure on these new “infinite” slots — it makes the bottleneck dynamic and universal rather than static and selective. It also rewards planning and forethought more, and smooths out dips and peaks in the economy.



Quote:
as it stands right now... it takes 3 days 16 hours and 53 minutes to make a 5 run copy. to build an avatar with a ME lvl 1 BPC u need 525 of 1 type of componet. if you had 5 BPOs of that componet it would take you 78 days to copy enough for 1 run on the titan not including the titan BPO itself which takes 177 days 18 hours and 40 min to copy.. so tell me how thats viable to produce ttians?

Edit these times are NPC station times ofc

Keep in mind that copying times will be reduced ( in some cases probably dramatically), and the cap on Captial copys is on the "to fix" list.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#393 - 2014-04-15 19:03:50 UTC
Allison A'vani wrote:
They never stated that it would be faster, only that after the change goes into effect, it would not be longer.

“Reduce copy time on all blueprints to be less time consuming than manufacturing something out of it. This gives the option to use blueprint copies to build items at Starbases without risking the original.”

Yes they did.
Misty Higgins
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#394 - 2014-04-15 19:05:07 UTC
Am I reading this correct? I will have to pay the cost scaling to use my own POS even though I already pay to fuel it?
Oxide Ammar
#395 - 2014-04-15 19:06:00 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
Riela Tanal wrote:
You need take access in a corp array in order to build, if you have those roles you can simply steal the bpo. This can be solved by making copies but some bpo copes are still worth a lot of isk and can be still stolen.

what ones are worth more than like 20m isk besides supercaps


10 Run BPO BS, BPC, Dread/Carrier BPC, T2 BPC ... shall I continue?

under 10m, like 20-50m, under 10m except probably jf and blops and marauders which run at most like 100m

so yes, please continue proving bpcs are simply not a real theft target


This is not pissing contest....you know !!

Lady Areola Fappington:  Solo PVP isn't dead!  You just need to make sure you have your booster, remote rep, cyno, and emergency Falcon alts logged in and ready before you do any solo PVPing.
Little Dragon Khamez
Guardians of the Underworld
#396 - 2014-04-15 19:06:14 UTC
Overall I like these changes. Good work CCP!

Dumbing down of Eve Online will result in it's destruction...
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#397 - 2014-04-15 19:06:16 UTC
Misty Higgins wrote:
Am I reading this correct? I will have to pay the cost scaling to use my own POS even though I already pay to fuel it?

Details on POS will be in another blog, if I read correctly.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#398 - 2014-04-15 19:06:22 UTC
Misty Higgins wrote:
Am I reading this correct? I will have to pay the cost scaling to use my own POS even though I already pay to fuel it?

If you over-use your POS, yes.
Kadl
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#399 - 2014-04-15 19:06:53 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Kadl wrote:
Slightly higher output for T2 BPOs => Slightly lower output for invention => Slightly lower profits for invention.
No, the output of T2 BPOs does not affect the output of invention, and the market prices for most T2 stuff is determined by the invention so there's very little to suggest that their profits will go down by any appreciable amount anyway.

Something seems clearly wrong in your statements about supply and demand here. If as you say there is higher output for the T2 BPOs then either inventors will produce less or demand will increase. Demand increases when prices drop. Perhaps T2 inventors will merely have to accept a slightly smaller margin.

Tippia wrote:
No, my argument is that we should look at the change as a whole, not pick apart small portions of it before the entire edifice is ready. If BPO owners get some minor benefit for a single expansion cycle, then so what. Wait until you know what happens to invention before complaining about what happens to invention. Right now, the same copying speed increase that benefits BPO holders benefits inventors as well, as they can react more quickly to changing markets (which is the already huge benefit they enjoy).

I can agree that we need to see the other changes. At the same time I think it is fine to note that we don't want to see an general increase in production from the T2 BPOs (without an increase in risk). Since we do not have the other developments available we can merely note that the current situation looks concerning, and leave it at that.
theman428
Order .66.
Brothers of Tangra
#400 - 2014-04-15 19:07:06 UTC  |  Edited by: theman428
Allison A'vani wrote:
Tippia wrote:
theman428 wrote:
as it stands right now...

Did you miss the part where creating the copies needed to produce N items will be faster than producing N items directly from the BPO? “As it stands right now” is irrelevant because that's not how it will stand after the change.

So the numbers you provided are meaningless. Instead, tell me how many blueprints you need to make use of and how long it takes to produce from those blueprints, because that's what matters for how it will work in the future.


They never stated that it would be faster, only that after the change goes into effect, it would not be longer.



thy for helping me out here but they actually did say they were going to speed it up i just missed it cause i was in shuch shock that they were going to do this.

"Reduce copy time on all blueprints to be less time consuming than manufacturing something out of it. This gives the option to use blueprint copies to build items at Starbases without risking the original."

but to ber fair even if they gave a 100% bounes to copy time it would still leave u with 86 days coping a titan BPO