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[Kronos] Mining Barges and Exhumers

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Atum
Eclipse Industrials
Quantum Forge
#381 - 2014-04-11 13:42:40 UTC
Guth'Alak wrote:
give exhumers a slot for cov ops cloak so miners feel more encouraged to leave high sec and use of those empty asteroid fields in low and null sec.

CovOps cloak? No. *Maybe* just a general utility high, but cloaky warping barges? Please Roll
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#382 - 2014-04-11 13:46:21 UTC
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:

20% better agility for the Hulk and Covetor



I'm not sure why the Hulk and Covetor need such a powerful defensive bonus. Their entire design is that they are the glass cannons of mining.


Warping off is basically the Hulk's only defence. Currently, a Hulk takes 16.7s to get into warp. Taking that down to 13.4 seconds will, I am confident, not leave the Hulk threatening too many HACs.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#383 - 2014-04-11 13:55:13 UTC
Atum wrote:
Guth'Alak wrote:
give exhumers a slot for cov ops cloak so miners feel more encouraged to leave high sec and use of those empty asteroid fields in low and null sec.

CovOps cloak? No. *Maybe* just a general utility high, but cloaky warping barges? Please Roll

No... wait... this is actually the right kind of crazy.

Give them a special cloak which allows use of mining lasers, (each needing a special targeting prompt to engage passively while cloaked).
For the targeting, just click on the laser with nothing locked, it already does this by default.

The hostile, warping to the belt, looks for the tell tale of lasers hitting rocks, and heads over to get closer.

This is the good part, follow carefully here.

The miner, KNOWING they are cloaked and cannot be targeted, has no reason to run.
The hunter, seeing the laser, gets closer to the miner.

The hunter needs to decloak, in order to do ANYTHING offensive.
By decloaking, they immediately alert the miner, who kills the mining laser, effectively removing the only clue to their whereabouts.

Now, IF the hostile is decloaked and has smart bombs, they can set them off, and hope their target is in range.
The mining ship should be trying to back away, out of such range.
(Time to call friends, if applicable)

It kind of reminds me of the old grid and peg game, battleship, where players try to guess each others location for combat.

I would love to test out encounters using these details.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#384 - 2014-04-11 14:14:28 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Any chance of including a mining drone enhancement for the skiff and procurer with the damage and HP bonus?


We considered that, but to make it balanced we'd need to nerf the strip miner yield on those ships, which isn't ideal.


its weird you will give a mining drone bonus to a combat ship like the vexor but not to a actual mining ship...
consider removing a turret/high and adding it to their mid slots/low slots...
also look at making harvester mining drones worth using 200mil a pop is crazy..

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#385 - 2014-04-11 14:20:54 UTC
Atum wrote:
Guth'Alak wrote:
give exhumers a slot for cov ops cloak so miners feel more encouraged to leave high sec and use of those empty asteroid fields in low and null sec.

CovOps cloak? No. *Maybe* just a general utility high, but cloaky warping barges? Please Roll

A utility high would be interesting. I'd love to see more mining in lowsec and that would certainly help. Not covops of course.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Atum
Eclipse Industrials
Quantum Forge
#386 - 2014-04-11 14:25:53 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
also look at making harvester mining drones worth using 200mil a pop is crazy..

They're collector's items, hence the cost. Sorta like Anaconda/Asp/Cobra/Python mines... relics from a time long ago
Thead Enco
Domheimed
#387 - 2014-04-11 14:38:20 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hello everyone. Thanks for the great discussion and feedback so far.

We're making some changes based on your feedback, mainly involving some buffs to the Hulk/Covetor line, the Procurer slot change being reversed, and some improvements to associated systems like mining crystal volume and survey scanner range (through gang links).


We're upgrading Strip Miners and Ice Harvester duration bonus to -4% per level of Mining Barge skill for Covetor and Hulk, and -3% per level of Exhumer skill for Hulk.

Swapping the low back to a mid for the Procurer. As many of your correctly pointed out, watering down the Procurer's area of specialty to give it more yield just watered down its distinctiveness and value.

+5 PWG and +10 CPU for the Hulk

20% better agility for the Hulk and Covetor

-110 scan res for the Retriever and Mackinaw, -220 scan res for the Procurer and Skiff. This is being done partly to ensure that the Hulk has a small relative lock time advantage and partly to avoid making the Procurer and Skiff too powerful in combat. The lock time of all barges and exhumers is still obscenely good.

60% reduction in mining crystal volume.

The Mining Laser Field Enhancement gang link now increases Survey Scanner range as well as mining laser range.

The OP has been updated.


Great changes ahead, Continue doing God's work good sir......
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#388 - 2014-04-11 14:43:41 UTC
i still don't see why a drone damage bonus is on a mining ship???

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#389 - 2014-04-11 14:44:30 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
i still don't see why a drone damage bonus is on a mining ship???

sometimes the bad men come to explode the mining ship

the gimmick of the procurer/skiff is increased ability for defense in exchange for yield and cargohold

sometimes the best defense is a good cliche
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#390 - 2014-04-11 14:45:13 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
i still don't see why a drone damage bonus is on a mining ship???

It creates the beginning of an option besides evasion, in parts of the game where Concord does not exist.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Atum
Eclipse Industrials
Quantum Forge
#391 - 2014-04-11 15:07:12 UTC
Fozzie, when should we expect the revised stats to hit Sisi? Playing on TQ these days is crawling-little-one limited, but the 15-20 minute breathers are great for testing/breaking stuff.
Kuda Timberline
Alea Iacta Est Universal
Blades of Grass
#392 - 2014-04-11 15:31:22 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hello everyone. Thanks for the great discussion and feedback so far.

We're upgrading Strip Miners and Ice Harvester duration bonus to -4% per level of Mining Barge skill for Covetor and Hulk, and -3% per level of Exhumer skill for Hulk.


+5 PWG and +10 CPU for the Hulk

20% better agility for the Hulk and Covetor

-110 scan res for the Retriever and Mackinaw, -220 scan res for the Procurer and Skiff. This is being done partly to ensure that the Hulk has a small relative lock time advantage and partly to avoid making the Procurer and Skiff too powerful in combat. The lock time of all barges and exhumers is still obscenely good.

60% reduction in mining crystal volume.

The Mining Laser Field Enhancement gang link now increases Survey Scanner range as well as mining laser range.

The OP has been updated.


These changes look great! I'd love to see a bit more CPU added to the Mack in order to better fit T2 mods, but I'll take what I can get this pass!

Not sure how I feel about the Scan Res change, but I'll take your word that it is still good. But long waits to target belt rats and rocks would be frustrating. As long as the lock time is faster than an Orca I'll be happy. The 60% reduction in mining crystal volume is a godsend! Thank you!

Keep up the good work!

Kuda Timberline

Co-host Capstable Podcast
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#393 - 2014-04-11 16:06:44 UTC
mmm.. the lock time on them is now between cruisers and frigates ... 660 is crazy high for a cruiser hull ... is it higher than the venture??? ... 660 is still too high for sure.. 440 is high for a cruiser..

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#394 - 2014-04-11 16:35:27 UTC
how about reducing the mass on the hulk and coveter ? is 30mil mass really necessary? .. surely the RET/MAC would be the biggest and heaviest with their massive ore holds ..

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Atum
Eclipse Industrials
Quantum Forge
#395 - 2014-04-11 16:41:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Atum
Harvey James wrote:
how about reducing the mass on the hulk and coveter ? is 30mil mass really necessary? .. surely the RET/MAC would be the biggest and heaviest with their massive ore holds ..

Well, mass was just reduced to 30M, and the cov/hulk are the physically largest of the three pairs, but you do bring up an interesting question... does the mass of what's in your cargohold affect ship maneuverability? Right now, I'm guessing not, but that is something CCP ought to look into long-term.
Dave Stark
#396 - 2014-04-11 17:16:53 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Any chance of including a mining drone enhancement for the skiff and procurer with the damage and HP bonus?


We considered that, but to make it balanced we'd need to nerf the strip miner yield on those ships, which isn't ideal.


but you did, by reversing the slot lay out.


And the yield on the Mack is still too damned high.


the yield on the mack isn't massively an issue. the gap between the mack and hulk was the issue. it was too narrow, that has now been addressed.
Atum
Eclipse Industrials
Quantum Forge
#397 - 2014-04-11 17:32:25 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
the gap between the mack and hulk was the issue. it was too narrow, that has now been addressed.

Well, that and the crystals (which has also been addressed). Hulks look like they'll again reward those who stay at the keyboard and micromanage, which is right and proper.

An interesting philosophical discussion would be whether the ProcSkiff or the RetMack should have the higher yield... personally I think they should be roughly the same, since the PS gives up m3/min for tank, while the RM gives it up for the ability to be afk for long periods of time.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#398 - 2014-04-11 17:38:55 UTC
Atum wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
the gap between the mack and hulk was the issue. it was too narrow, that has now been addressed.

Well, that and the crystals (which has also been addressed). Hulks look like they'll again reward those who stay at the keyboard and micromanage, which is right and proper.

An interesting philosophical discussion would be whether the ProcSkiff or the RetMack should have the higher yield... personally I think they should be roughly the same, since the PS gives up m3/min for tank, while the RM gives it up for the ability to be afk for long periods of time.

I would keep their yield identical, but for completely different reasons.

I would give the RM good yield, to give them more reason to be attentive.

I would give the PS good yield, because it's use is being paid for with expectation of greater risk.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#399 - 2014-04-11 17:40:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Promiscuous Female
e: the below statement is completely wrong, they are actually identical

ee: oh cool this forum actually does have strikethrough, it wasn't listed in the docs

unless i'm doing the math wrong in my head, with a -60%, -10%, -10% cycle time on one harvester, the skiff should actually have slightly better yield than -20%, -10%, -10% on two harvesters on the mackinaw, now that they have the same number of low slots

it'll be a pretty small difference though
Kellaen
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#400 - 2014-04-11 18:16:53 UTC
Has any thought been given to allowing the Orca a compression ability like it's sibling the Rorqual?