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[Kronos] Pirate Faction Cruisers

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Unezka Turigahl
Det Som Engang Var
#661 - 2014-04-08 23:13:30 UTC
Hmm need these changes along with drone changes on the test server. I sometimes switch from the Ishtar to the Gila when I run hisec exploration sites. Just to have a different looking hull really, since they're functionally the same. At least the way I fly them. It will be interesting to see how the Gila performs now. I'm almost certain it will clear sites much slower than it did with Garde IIs. Not good for competitive hisec sites.

With the Ishtar and current Gila, I sit at the warp in and insta-blap 5 frigs at a time, then take out cruisers in 2 or 3 volleys. Then MWD to the next gate. With the new Gila moving around staying close to your 2 drones... I don't see it being very efficient. I doubt the addition of missiles can make up for it. I also wonder what the total DPS will look like. With the Ishtar and Cerberus dishing out 800+ DPS, the new Gila may never win the tower bash in Guristas 4/10. Gotta rely on being a quick thief.
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#662 - 2014-04-08 23:16:01 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
The Serpentis web bonus is extremely strong. We went into this balance pass thinking it was probably too strong and that we may need to tune it down. In the first Pirate Faction thread (the Frigates) I asked specifically for feedback on this bonus and how players felt about it. We also brought it up with the CSM during the summit.

The vast majority of feedback from all angles pointed towards an agreement that in certain environments this bonus was extremely powerful but that it wasn't having a negative effect on the game overall and we should leave it alone. I'm not sure if anyone remembers by now but when I casually mentioned changing this bonus during a Reddit AMA there was an outcry to prevent us from doing that at all costs.

Internally we are a bit divided even though we all agree it's one of the game's most powerful bonuses. I want to try and leave it because unique points of power like this one, as long as they aren't oppressive, are more interesting than moving everything towards a middle ground.



The maths on it breaks it and IMO it should go (in its present form) so that you can produce web effects that exceed 60% baseline. As long as this bonus exists, even a 64% web is utterly, horribly gamebreaking and IMO 62% would be too strong even for an officer module.

50% better than normal intuitively implies "As good as using 1.5 of these modules", which for 60% Webs would mean a strength of (1-0.4^1.5), which is basically a 75% web. If the Serpentis bonus turned 60% webs into 75% ones, it would be powerful but would not impose the same design constraints upon modules.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Julian DeCroix
Socialist Death Panel
#663 - 2014-04-08 23:34:45 UTC
Where exactly do these hull bonuses come from? Caldari ships are generally slow, clumsy balls of sig radius, relying on massive shields for survivability - why would the Phantasm gain an AB bonus from Caldari skill? Likewise, I can count the number of Gallente ships with more than a single, token launcher hardpoint on one hand - why would the Gila gain a missile bonus from Gallente skill? It just doesn't seem very consistent with racial philosophies.

I can't say I like seeing one of the few by-design shield sentry boats go away, but I'm not space-rich enough spend the money on faction ships anyway. It certainly does appear to be further effort in removing things from the game that can be considered "versatile" or "all-purpose".

@Jenn aSide - I find that (elite NPCs notwithstanding) NPC aggro preference is generally mission specific. The NPCs in mission X will prefer to shoot at me, while those in mission Y will prefer to shoot at my drones. I can use light drones in X if I so choose; they'll hardly ever be molested. By the same token, I can play logi for my sentries in Y with dual large armor RRs and a large hull RR, and I'll never need to turn on the Domi's tank. The elites are the only NPCs that seem inclined to assess actual threat-levels. I admit, I would never have thought to try damping some random piece of scenery to create additional aggro; it certainly doesn't seem to follow any logical progression. What made you think to try that?
Sniper Smith
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#664 - 2014-04-08 23:38:41 UTC
It makes perfect sense actually.

The Caldari are Capitalists.. So their ships are slow cause they sell all the good engines to the Sansha, and only leave the second rate stuff for capsuleres..
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#665 - 2014-04-08 23:40:58 UTC
Has anyone checked out the fittings for the Ashimmu now that it's only -120 grid instead of -200?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Jatok Reknar
The Legion of Spoon
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#666 - 2014-04-08 23:54:39 UTC
Overall, I like these changes. Makes me have to rethink how I use the Gila. But I think I can still figure out good setups with medium drones, especially with the drone changes coming this summer.

But please oh please, give us bonused Sentry drones on the Rattlesnake though. I hope we won't end up with just bonused Heavies on that hull which would make it too much of a niche utility ship. Would be unfair to do that to such a sweet looking ship :)
Naomi Anthar
#667 - 2014-04-08 23:58:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Naomi Anthar
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Has anyone checked out the fittings for the Ashimmu now that it's only -120 grid instead of -200?


Yeah which is actually pretty good. Removing one utility high (medium neut 175pwg) wasnt equal to 250 pwg nerf (you need to include skill ... lets not even mention implants)
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#668 - 2014-04-09 00:04:47 UTC
Naomi Anthar wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Has anyone checked out the fittings for the Ashimmu now that it's only -120 grid instead of -200?


Yeah which is actually pretty good. Removing one utility high (medium neut 175pwg) wasnt equal to 250 pwg nerf (you need to include skill ... lets not even mention implants)


That's about what I had figured myself. Napkin math for the win.

So now it just looks like the choice is up between 3 turrets and 2 Nos, or 3 Nos and 2 turrets. I halfway imagine that the addition of a dronebay will make up for the loss of the third turret in that eventuality. Ought to end up decently close to it's previous DPS rating with 3 turrets.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#669 - 2014-04-09 00:13:38 UTC
Jatok Reknar wrote:
Overall, I like these changes. Makes me have to rethink how I use the Gila. But I think I can still figure out good setups with medium drones, especially with the drone changes coming this summer.

But please oh please, give us bonused Sentry drones on the Rattlesnake though. I hope we won't end up with just bonused Heavies on that hull which would make it too much of a niche utility ship. Would be unfair to do that to such a sweet looking ship :)


niche utility? .. it will end up with maybe 1 utility high and the rest of its highs will be bonused torps or cruises

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#670 - 2014-04-09 00:39:00 UTC
I love what you have done with the Gila!

This is Just the sort of thinking that really gives some differentiation and interest.

I would suggest though you put in a bonus to counteract that fact, that there is now no sense in using light drones with the ship, to allow for very fast ships to be dealt with. Could be a problem even with the new Drone mechanics/Specs. Shocked

To prove my like, I bought a second tonight after seeing this before the market went berserk.

It will be a hell of a lot of fun.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#671 - 2014-04-09 00:45:14 UTC
There was an outcry against nerfing 90% webs because people are awful

Come on, do it!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NflTOYuVJ0E

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Arthur Aihaken
Kenshin Academia.
Kenshin Shogunate.
#672 - 2014-04-09 01:31:09 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Here, many months later, the Navy Raven is a very well regarded pve ship and even after the markets settled down is STILL way more expensive to by than the Fleet Typhoon (don't get me wrong, the Fleet phoon is great and I fly it, but the Navy Raven is something special....which we tried to explain way back then lol).

And then there was the Navy Drake...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Icewolf7
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#673 - 2014-04-09 01:43:39 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:


GILA

Gallente Cruiser Bonus:
10% bonus to kinetic and thermal missile damage (was 10% drone damage and hitpoints)

Caldari Cruiser Bonus:
4% bonus to all shield resistances

Role Bonus:
500% bonus to medium drone damage and hitpoints (was 50% bonus to Light Missile and Rocket max velocity)


Slot layout: 5H, 6M, 4L; 0 turrets, 4 launchers(+1)
Fittings: 670 PWG(+40), 400 CPU(+50)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 3200(+12) / 2200(-125) / 2490
Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 1400(+25) / 530000 (-1250) / 2.85
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 195(+31) / .66 / 9600000 / 8.78s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 20(-105) / 100(-300)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 58km (+3km) / 285 / 7
Sensor strength: 22
Signature radius: 145(-5)


Do you even use drones?

The Gila in its current version is a versatile ship but a little underpowered(Fitting wise), these changes however will effectively cut it out of all the Role's it currently can fill and add none that are practical.

So your going to turn the gila into a 2 medium drone boat with some extra missile damage? please find me 1 person who flies the Gila Now in pvp or pve that will continue to use it after these changes.

No more sentries? cant tower bash or snipe, no more heavies? No more close quarters brawling or structure grinding.

No drone boat exclusively uses Medium drones unless that's the best it can field, they use lights, heavy's, sentries and sometimes ECM.


The only thing these changes will accomplish is no one will continuously fly the Gila anymore past the 1st one they lose.


Need an alternative?
First leave the drone's alone or maybe a slight nerf if needed to compensate for missile dmg buff (100 bandwidth from 125)

Imagine a Gila that had 4 Heavy's and 4 Heavy assault Missile launchers OR 4 sentries with 4 Heavy missile launcher

Fix the fittings to allow a decent missile SND tank load out.

Add some maneuverability to it, like the phantasm AB changes.
Warmonger Murderalt
Shady Business Inc.
#674 - 2014-04-09 01:51:45 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:

The option we do feel good about is warp speed. It supports the hit and run playstyle that Angels are already best at without forcing us to make changes to the combat performance. So, we are looking at roughly a 50% increase in warp speed and acceleration for all three, putting the Cynabal at warp speed multiplier of 4.5, which is basically destroyer speed. I've also updated the OP with a new powergrid number.

We spent time playing with the Vigilant in a lot of different configurations and feel completely confident in the current fitting numbers.

Hope this makes you Angel fans more excited


I'd like to see these fittings. The only way the Vigilant isn't starved and power limited by being short on powergrid *right now* is with a full lower rack full of gank and a a mediocre shield tank. Pulling the currently listed amount of powergrid out is alright for that one fit. Anything tanked for the kind of ehp needed to brawl has 40-50 spare powergrid after implants and 4-9 powergrid without implants. No matter how I cut it this translates to about a 4-5k drop in ehp with my far from perfect skills.

But maybe I'm just not trying to fly this thing as dev's intended, because there's always oodles of CPU leftover. So post up the fits.

Cause I suspect what we'll see is silly pure gank no survival ships that are good for nothing real but baiting. When I looked at the Cynabal fits I use that are gank fit and meant to literally be bait in small gang pvp, I found that post changes, everything just barely fits, as if all the changes were made with autocannon gank fits in mind. The changes make perfect sense for the fits I have saved that are for small gang pvp. Artillery is still possible post changes but does require a little less durability which these fits were already light on but since it speed based anyway that's fine.


What I wish was there was a testing process where the devs would fit their ships with their proposed changes and then use the ships with/against players using current setups, and if the players wipe the floor with the devs the devs go back to the drawing board or agree to leave them alone.
Aramis Rosicrux
Ordo Rosa Crux Templaris
#675 - 2014-04-09 01:57:43 UTC
As a fan of the Ashimmu, I am flabbergasted at how weakened it now is. The ship was always indefendable, cutting its web bonus and the nost/neut nerfs together will make this a collector's item.

They should have just taken it behind the barn and put a bullet in its pointy little head.

Still the best looking ship in Eve though, or do you think they would screw that too?

Vigilant is now the ship to beat far and away the best cruiser in the game now. Gila with support will be a challenge to defeat as well.

If I owned a Cynbabal or a Phantasm I would be OMG rage quitting about now, but they always sucked this just cements their doom.

CCP Rise, why you such a hater???

BOO, I SAY. BOO!

Twisted

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Cordo Draken
ABOS Industrial Enterprises
#676 - 2014-04-09 02:42:45 UTC
Hmmm... Some very nice changes and some very blah changes. Will have to think about these some. Gilas will flat suck while Phantasms will become FOTM. Ashimmu changes I'm still on the fence with... I think I would prefer current web bonus and hve the Neut/Nos range get extended out.

Overall though, Fittings are going to remain super tight if not worse. This part is fail CCP.

Whomever said, "You only get one shot to make a good impression," was utterly wrong. I've made plenty of great impressions with my Autocannons 
King Rothgar
Deadly Solutions
#677 - 2014-04-09 02:47:09 UTC
The Phantasm and Gila changes look very interesting, I can't wait to see just how they handle as they will be fairly unique. The Cynabal's new role bonus also matches it well, further putting it into "best frigate in the game" role. The Ashimmu I'm still not sold on (I did a lot of arguing against in the faction frigate thread).

The changes will allow substantially more dps, probably around 500 dps total with max skills and implants. This is on the low side for a faction cruiser. Tank will not be changing much, which is also reasonably average for a faction cruiser. The web range bonus is of questionable value. If you need more than 23km range, you're simply doing it wrong with this type of ship. Trading a high slot for a low does offer the greater dps but it comes at the expense of neuting. It's hard to say how that will balance out with the NOS changes without actually testing it. I'm not totally opposed to this change, but I have serious doubts about it.

[u]Fireworks and snowballs are great, but what I really want is a corpse launcher.[/u]
Bertrand Butler
Cras es Noster
#678 - 2014-04-09 02:52:48 UTC
Martin Kato
Dark Rift Industrial
#679 - 2014-04-09 03:28:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Martin Kato
Noo.. Not the PG on the Vigilant. It's gona mess up my fit lol
Martin Kato
Dark Rift Industrial
#680 - 2014-04-09 03:36:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Martin Kato
the speed boost is nice though.