These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Kronos] Pirate Faction Cruisers

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Mr Floydy
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#621 - 2014-04-08 20:10:47 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
]With 5 drone ships doing anything to a single drone is a loss of 20% of my drone DPS and on a hull with weapons fitted probably around 15% overall DPS loss. Reducing the drones to 2 increases that number to 50% of my drone DPS being affected and probably 30-40% of my overall DPS. I'm not opposed to the implementation, I'm just pointing out that it creates it's own weaknesses. That and it exasperates the failings of drone AI.


On the other hand, the new drones are far more resilient against smartbombs. Yes losing 1 will be a bigger dps different. However you are much less likely to lose one as they are much tougher.
It'll balance out in most scenarios.

Gila pilots, if you are worried about losing your drones due to them taking ages to get back to you. Try sitting up close to your target and brawling ;) - you're not going to lose drones this way unless you're in idiot or in a fight you were never going to win anyway.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#622 - 2014-04-08 20:12:17 UTC
Bertrand Butler wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
With 5 drone ships doing anything to a single drone is a loss of 20% of my drone DPS and on a hull with weapons fitted probably around 15% overall DPS loss. Reducing the drones to 2 increases that number to 50% of my drone DPS being affected and probably 30-40% of my overall DPS. I'm not opposed to the implementation, I'm just pointing out that it creates it's own weaknesses. That and it exasperates the failings of drone AI.


The derp factor of drone AI is understandable, but the whole damage reduction via drone popping is a little off.

As we argued in the Worm thread, having less drones with more EHP means that your enemy will be less able to remove damage from the field. Even accounting for the extra targeting time (which favors 5 drones), until you are able to kill one of the 6x boosted ones you get 100% damage thrown against you. Also, the higher EHP gives you the opportunity to exchange drones on the fly in a close range PvP enviroment, thus keeping the pressure on without having your drones popped.

This is also why the EWAR argument is not that important. If the enemy has to web one of your drones to kill it then that web is off your ship, instantly giving you the "weather gauge" in the engagement.

Also, have in mind that you have another 8 drones like that in your bay, ready for launching.
On a non-sentry platform every web keeping your DPS from being where you want it is a web you want off the field. Yes the HP increase helps prevent it from being removed, but not marginalized. Keeping the drones from doing their job becomes more effective on a ship with fewer drones fielded but isn't only accomplished through destruction. Especially keeping in mind you only have one true target.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#623 - 2014-04-08 20:13:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Mr Floydy wrote:
Gila pilots, if you are worried about losing your drones due to them taking ages to get back to you. Try sitting up close to your target and brawling ;) - you're not going to lose drones this way unless you're in idiot or in a fight you were never going to win anyway.
This is kinda the crux of my whole point. The gila was once a 2nd best at a few tricks, now it's just really good at one.

Edit: And I'm not saying that this is bad or a failed design, just don't expect everyone to share the enthusiasm about the more limited ideal usage cases here.
Mr Floydy
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#624 - 2014-04-08 20:21:01 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
This is kinda the crux of my whole point. The gila was once a 2nd best at a few tricks, now it's just really good at one.

Edit: And I'm not saying that this is bad or a failed design, just don't expect everyone to share the enthusiasm about the more limited ideal usage cases here.


Really good at one rather than 2nd best at a few things? That's an improvement then. There are now situations where this ship is the best, rather than every situation basically being "should have used an ishtar or Rattlesnake"

Really think this needs to hit Sisi nice and soon so everyone can go try them.
Nash MacAllister
Air
The Initiative.
#625 - 2014-04-08 20:22:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Nash MacAllister
Jenn aSide wrote:

You mean like the Ogre IIs i already use in pve? with my Gila and Domi?

Prepare to be amazed then lol. How can so many pve jocks be so clueless about pve? Isn't that what a PVE player is supposed to know about?


Then you, my ignorant (or possibly just trolling/dumb) friend, are probably the slowest PVE'er in the game. Targets at zero, yep, Ogre's tear them up. Everything else, which is most of PVE targets? Yeah, Ogre's are not going to make it.

Fighting at zero = most of w-space PVP. Certainly I'll take some bonuses to heavies thanks. Who said the Gila had to solely be a PVE ship?

Yes, if you have to ask yourself the question, just assume we are watching you...
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#626 - 2014-04-08 20:25:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Mr Floydy wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
This is kinda the crux of my whole point. The gila was once a 2nd best at a few tricks, now it's just really good at one.

Edit: And I'm not saying that this is bad or a failed design, just don't expect everyone to share the enthusiasm about the more limited ideal usage cases here.


Really good at one rather than 2nd best at a few things? That's an improvement then. There are now situations where this ship is the best, rather than every situation basically being "should have used an ishtar or Rattlesnake"

Really think this needs to hit Sisi nice and soon so everyone can go try them.
To each their own I suppose, I just don't see a pirate cruiser being a terribly good highly situational investment worth making sure you always have around.

To add to that, isn't that a strange thing to ask of a "generalist" hull, as Rise stated these should be?
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#627 - 2014-04-08 20:26:47 UTC
Nash MacAllister wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:

You mean like the Ogre IIs i already use in pve? with my Gila and Domi?

Prepare to be amazed then lol. How can so many pve jocks be so clueless about pve? Isn't that what a PVE player is supposed to know about?


Then you, my ignorant (or possibly just trolling/dumb) friend, are probably the slowest PVE'er in the game. Targets at zero, yep, Ogre's tear them up. Everything else, which is most of PVE targets? Yeah, Ogre's are not going to make it.

Fighting at zero = most of w-space PVP. Certainly I'll take some bonuses to heavies thanks. Who said the Gila had to solely be a PVE ship?


I'm pretty sure that the Gila will output more drone DPS against T3s than an Ishtar with Ogres. Even with a tracking bonus, Ogres will not apply full DPS to cruisers.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#628 - 2014-04-08 20:28:32 UTC
i just remembered: shield ishtar. disregard; i'm withdrawing from the gila discussion.

Help, I can't download EVE

President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub

PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
scorchlikeshiswhiskey
Totally Abstract
O X I D E
#629 - 2014-04-08 20:34:21 UTC
When do we get a look at the rumored missile faction?
Lisa Sophie d'Elancourt
Empusa.
#630 - 2014-04-08 20:37:59 UTC
What's the reason CCP decided neutrons can't be fitted in vigilant? Give up pg penalty.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#631 - 2014-04-08 20:41:37 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
I'm not saying sentry use is the end of all things, just that having the option is nice, and now the gila doesn't. All around I see it as losing flexibility, and not much of a max DPS boost, or any major boost, in exchange. for people willing to maintain a fleet and use the absolute best tool for the job on an individual basis that's great. For more generalist use cases other drone ships will be better. I don't see that as doing the gila any favors in a game of hardwire optimizations.


The problem is the ishtar, meaning less use of the current Gila. It becomes the "Domi vs Rattlesnake" just with cruisers, unless you need a bunch of passive shield tank, why use a 'Sanke for pve when a Domi can get almost as much dps with just drones (and more with guns) for 1/4th the cost.

The ishtar isn't that expensive, but after a pilot can fly an ishtar, there just isn't much need for the Gila which is why you see Ishtars doing PVE stuff in Guristas space rather than the actual Gurista's Cruiser. With the kin/therm bonus, extra launcher and bonused to hell hammerheads that are better against small targets close in the Gila actually has something of an edge over the ishtar for the 1st time i can remember.

I'm not kidding, I'm going to fly that sucker till the armor shakes off in Serp/guristas pve..

what missions or PVE are you running, because I can't think of many lucrative ones that plant you close to your targets, close enough that mediums are the best option.


I get Buzz kill and gone berserk a lot, and pirate invasion. Forsaken Hubs , Forsaken Rally Points and Havens (pirate gate version) all spawn ships at a central point. And I use ogres not mediums, but after this change it will be mediums. Remember that drones will also be faster. And unlike the people who use Gilas for sentries, I actually have a prop mod on mine and am flying after my heavies.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#632 - 2014-04-08 20:52:02 UTC
Nash MacAllister wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:

You mean like the Ogre IIs i already use in pve? with my Gila and Domi?

Prepare to be amazed then lol. How can so many pve jocks be so clueless about pve? Isn't that what a PVE player is supposed to know about?


Then you, my ignorant (or possibly just trolling/dumb) friend, are probably the slowest PVE'er in the game. Targets at zero, yep, Ogre's tear them up. Everything else, which is most of PVE targets? Yeah, Ogre's are not going to make it.


Which is why they make these thigns called Drone nav comps, which I use on my Domi (not the gila).

And how can I be the wrost PVEr in the game when several of you have demonstrated that you either don't know how to keep arrgo off drones or don't want to take the effort to do so lol?

Quote:

Fighting at zero = most of w-space PVP. Certainly I'll take some bonuses to heavies thanks. Who said the Gila had to solely be a PVE ship?


Absolutly no one. I am a pve player, I am addressing the ridiculas notion that the new Gila is somehow going to suck at pve because it no long has the sentry crutch people have been relying on since the NPC AI change instead of learning how to actually play. A Gila PVPr can address the pvp concerns if they wish.


This discussion is exactly like the Faction Battleship discussion. When CCP announced the changes, people who couldn't see how much the changes to the Navy Raven were gonna rock (aka EFT warriors) cried foul and predicted that no one would use the new Navy Raven for pve because "you can get just as much dps from a regular raven or navy scorp and more from the Fleet Typhooon!!!!1". They called those of us who tried to explain why the new Navy Raven was going to rock "delusional".

They predicted that Navy Ravens would, by now, cost less than Rattlesnakes because no one would fly it because it sucks.

Here, many months later, the Navy Raven is a very well regarded pve ship and even after the markets settled down is STILL way more expensive to by than the Fleet Typhoon (don't get me wrong, the Fleet phoon is great and I fly it, but the Navy Raven is something special....which we tried to explain way back then lol).
Shepard Wong Ogeko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#633 - 2014-04-08 20:52:25 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Rain6637 wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
I'm not saying sentry use is the end of all things, just that having the option is nice, and now the gila doesn't. All around I see it as losing flexibility, and not much of a max DPS boost, or any major boost, in exchange. for people willing to maintain a fleet and use the absolute best tool for the job on an individual basis that's great. For more generalist use cases other drone ships will be better. I don't see that as doing the gila any favors in a game of hardwire optimizations.


The problem is the ishtar, meaning less use of the current Gila. It becomes the "Domi vs Rattlesnake" just with cruisers, unless you need a bunch of passive shield tank, why use a 'Sanke for pve when a Domi can get almost as much dps with just drones (and more with guns) for 1/4th the cost.

The ishtar isn't that expensive, but after a pilot can fly an ishtar, there just isn't much need for the Gila which is why you see Ishtars doing PVE stuff in Guristas space rather than the actual Gurista's Cruiser. With the kin/therm bonus, extra launcher and bonused to hell hammerheads that are better against small targets close in the Gila actually has something of an edge over the ishtar for the 1st time i can remember.

I'm not kidding, I'm going to fly that sucker till the armor shakes off in Serp/guristas pve..

what missions or PVE are you running, because I can't think of many lucrative ones that plant you close to your targets, close enough that mediums are the best option.


I get Buzz kill and gone berserk a lot, and pirate invasion. Forsaken Hubs , Forsaken Rally Points and Havens (pirate gate version) all spawn ships at a central point. And I use ogres not mediums, but after this change it will be mediums. Remember that drones will also be faster. And unlike the people who use Gilas for sentries, I actually have a prop mod on mine and am flying after my heavies.


Eve tells me my drone boat pilot can get 750 dps with Wasp II's in a Gila. I doubt it will get that much using 2 super buffed Vespas. I could make it up with adding missiles, but if I was going to kill rats with missiles I would just go with a Tengu and be able to run much more profitable sites.
Lugia3
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#634 - 2014-04-08 20:53:49 UTC
Xequecal wrote:
Nash MacAllister wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:

You mean like the Ogre IIs i already use in pve? with my Gila and Domi?

Prepare to be amazed then lol. How can so many pve jocks be so clueless about pve? Isn't that what a PVE player is supposed to know about?


Then you, my ignorant (or possibly just trolling/dumb) friend, are probably the slowest PVE'er in the game. Targets at zero, yep, Ogre's tear them up. Everything else, which is most of PVE targets? Yeah, Ogre's are not going to make it.

Fighting at zero = most of w-space PVP. Certainly I'll take some bonuses to heavies thanks. Who said the Gila had to solely be a PVE ship?


I'm pretty sure that the Gila will output more drone DPS against T3s than an Ishtar with Ogres. Even with a tracking bonus, Ogres will not apply full DPS to cruisers.


Ogres have a sig res of 125.

"CCP Dolan is full of shit." - CCP Bettik
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#635 - 2014-04-08 20:53:55 UTC
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:


Eve tells me my drone boat pilot can get 750 dps with Wasp II's in a Gila. I doubt it will get that much using 2 super buffed Vespas. I could make it up with adding missiles, but if I was going to kill rats with missiles I would just go with a Tengu and be able to run much more profitable sites.



If you aren't using missiles with a Gila right now, you're already much better off with an Ishtar.
Torei Dutalis
IceBox Inc.
Rogue Caldari Union
#636 - 2014-04-08 20:59:07 UTC
Good to see that the cynabal is now going to be sitting at an appropriate power grid. To be honest I'd still like to see the ship not having changes to its mass/speed/agility. Tweaking the ship's iconic speed and agility seems unnecessary. I'd also parrot the opinion that the warp speed bonus is extremely lackluster. Sure it's better than no bonus, but the point about how often do you put warp speed rigs on your cruisers still rings true.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#637 - 2014-04-08 21:00:03 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Nash MacAllister wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:

You mean like the Ogre IIs i already use in pve? with my Gila and Domi?

Prepare to be amazed then lol. How can so many pve jocks be so clueless about pve? Isn't that what a PVE player is supposed to know about?


Then you, my ignorant (or possibly just trolling/dumb) friend, are probably the slowest PVE'er in the game. Targets at zero, yep, Ogre's tear them up. Everything else, which is most of PVE targets? Yeah, Ogre's are not going to make it.


Which is why they make these thigns called Drone nav comps, which I use on my Domi (not the gila).

And how can I be the wrost PVEr in the game when several of you have demonstrated that you either don't know how to keep arrgo off drones or don't want to take the effort to do so lol?
...
Absolutly no one. I am a pve player, I am addressing the ridiculas notion that the new Gila is somehow going to suck at pve because it no long has the sentry crutch people have been relying on since the NPC AI change instead of learning how to actually play. A Gila PVPr can address the pvp concerns if they wish.
You stated it requires RR+ewar, which means reconfiguring my boat to sustain that when one of them, if the strategy works, I won't need since all the damage will come in to my local tank. That isn't really a worthwhile effort when I can just use sentries in most cases. You call it a crutch, I think it's using the right tool for the job.

It undoubtedly did lose PvE flexibility.
Waktaku Aek
Alternate Intention
OnlyFleets.
#638 - 2014-04-08 21:06:16 UTC
Thanks for having an ear to the community and reconsidering the heavy nerf on the Cynabal and picking one of the suggested specific trait in this thread.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#639 - 2014-04-08 21:13:46 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
You stated it requires RR+ewar, which means reconfiguring my boat to sustain that when one of them, if the strategy works, I won't need since all the damage will come in to my local tank.


The point is that you use the RR to keep aggro off your drones and perhaps fleet mates in the site/mission with you.

This solves the problem of not being able to bring newbs in weaker ships to observe ( a concern voiced by many at the time of the NPC AI change), allows you to being in a high dps/low tank alt to help clear or allows you to bring an alt in a noctis (or a new bro in a salvage frig) to sweep up even faster than bookmarking and coming back .

Quote:

That isn't really a worthwhile effort when I can just use sentries in most cases. You call it a crutch, I think it's using the right tool for the job.

It undoubtedly did lose PvE flexibility.



Even if so, the thing will actually be more fun to fly. I use mine as a mobile heavy drone brawler already, this is just making it that much better. And how much flexibility does a ship that doesn't get much current use need?
Shepard Wong Ogeko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#640 - 2014-04-08 21:13:59 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:


Eve tells me my drone boat pilot can get 750 dps with Wasp II's in a Gila. I doubt it will get that much using 2 super buffed Vespas. I could make it up with adding missiles, but if I was going to kill rats with missiles I would just go with a Tengu and be able to run much more profitable sites.



If you aren't using missiles with a Gila right now, you're already much better off with an Ishtar.



The missiles on the Gila currently don't have any damage bonus. I'd make more isk/hr dropping and orbiting an MTU and putting salvagers in the highs. Overall, why pick a drone boat and then bother with locking rats and stocking ammo?

Ishtar is hands down better at pure drone ratting because it gets velocity and tracking bonuses, so it applies damage faster/better. I think that is something missing from a lot of the discussion of the changes to the Guristas ships. The Gallente ships get damage and velocity/tracking bonuses. While high dps numbers look awesome, the other bonuses mean that the damage is better applied.