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[Kronos] Pirate Faction Cruisers

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Sniper Smith
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#541 - 2014-04-08 17:48:53 UTC
Medalyn Isis wrote:
I disagree with this. Of course there will be an outcry when you propose to nerf someones favourite toy, but that shouldn't prevent you from making the right balance decision.

I feel a bit annoyed that experienced players would make an outcry for selfish reasons without the general balance of the game being taken into consideration. Throwing their toys out the pram just because they wont be able to insta kill frigates with dreadnoughts is quite pathetic.

Personally, webs are very strong, I think they should be bought down to a maximum of 50% strength for the T2 web. And it is simply bad mechanics that a single ship can effectively take the whole speed/transveral/positioning aspect of pvp out of the picture, and makes for a very boring experience.

Could say the same thing about you people.. OMG OP Serpentis Web ships that are for the most part RARELY seen in combat, and still only have an effective range of ~25km Overheated.. Bring something that can dictate range. Bring something with Ranged Weapons. Bring something with neuts. Bring Blood ships with Neuts and long range webs to dictate range.

There are many many counters to the 3 Serpentis ships. And this is above the fact that they aren't cheap, and are most always primary when seen on grid.

Maybe after this we can cry because Arty ships sometimes alpha us, so it's OP. Or now Angel ships will be able to outrun us so we can't catch em.. OP. OMG it Neuted me.. OP. I'm jammed.. OP..

It's not OP, it's you've had a bad experience, and don't know how/can't be bothered to think up/adjust tactics accordingly. That's not CCP's problem. That's yours. And as CCP has been nice enough to say several times now, including in this thread, it's not changing.

HTFU, or go make (yet another) thread to whine about the evil webs.
scorchlikeshiswhiskey
Totally Abstract
O X I D E
#542 - 2014-04-08 17:49:09 UTC
Overall I am, again, underwhelmed. They look like they'll be fun to fly but I don't see anything that really strikes my fancy. As such if the BS changes are in line with these I will be disappointed yet again.
No pirate faction gets a bonus to your fancy rapid missiles. It doesn't even look like your "missile" ships are even missile ships, instead you seem to be following a pattern of pushing missiles into a drone support role with pirate ships and that's just screwy.

Overall- Meh
Mehashi 'Kho
New Eden Motion Pictures
#543 - 2014-04-08 17:50:54 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
The Serpentis web bonus is extremely strong. We went into this balance pass thinking it was probably too strong and that we may need to tune it down. In the first Pirate Faction thread (the Frigates) I asked specifically for feedback on this bonus and how players felt about it. We also brought it up with the CSM during the summit.

The vast majority of feedback from all angles pointed towards an agreement that in certain environments this bonus was extremely powerful but that it wasn't having a negative effect on the game overall and we should leave it alone. I'm not sure if anyone remembers by now but when I casually mentioned changing this bonus during a Reddit AMA there was an outcry to prevent us from doing that at all costs.

Internally we are a bit divided even though we all agree it's one of the game's most powerful bonuses. I want to try and leave it because unique points of power like this one, as long as they aren't oppressive, are more interesting than moving everything towards a middle ground.


basically reddit and the council of nullsec are all awful. pls fix webs.
you should know how people are in this game - JF owners will tell you JFs aren't broken, people who use ASBs will tell you that ASBs are fine.

What is wrong with webs?

Almost every pvp ship has one, and outside of this thread I have never heard them referred to as overpowered.
Sniper Smith
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#544 - 2014-04-08 17:52:08 UTC
scorchlikeshiswhiskey wrote:
Overall I am, again, underwhelmed. They look like they'll be fun to fly but I don't see anything that really strikes my fancy. As such if the BS changes are in line with these I will be disappointed yet again.
No pirate faction gets a bonus to your fancy rapid missiles. It doesn't even look like your "missile" ships are even missile ships, instead you seem to be following a pattern of pushing missiles into a drone support role with pirate ships and that's just screwy.

Overall- Meh

The missile pirate faction doesn't exist yet.

There's Lasers, Projectiles, Drones x2, and Hybrids. Missile faction coming soon.. maybe. Minm+Caldari faction.
dexter xio
Dead Game.
#545 - 2014-04-08 17:52:49 UTC
Cannibal Kane wrote:
I would much prefer them to remove the web bonus then take 150PG away.


wat

Dead Game.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#546 - 2014-04-08 17:55:20 UTC
Mehashi 'Kho wrote:

What is wrong with webs?

Almost every pvp ship has one, and outside of this thread I have never heard them referred to as overpowered.


they're too good, and kind of wreck the sig and speed vs tank thing that's supposed to be a big deal in eve. 90% webs allow anything to hit anything. with regular webs, you need to put in a bit more effort and use a few of them, possibly with painters as well. it should be obvious - the reason every ship has one is because they're really really good.
Invisusira
Escalated.
OnlyFleets.
#547 - 2014-04-08 17:56:40 UTC
What do you mean I can't fit the largest size guns AND dual prop AND the biggest tank options on my fastest ship in class anymore??? THIS IS UNFAIR CCP

*unsubs*

EVE Music
King Fu Hostile
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#548 - 2014-04-08 17:57:58 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
The Serpentis web bonus is extremely strong. We went into this balance pass thinking it was probably too strong and that we may need to tune it down. In the first Pirate Faction thread (the Frigates) I asked specifically for feedback on this bonus and how players felt about it. We also brought it up with the CSM during the summit.

The vast majority of feedback from all angles pointed towards an agreement that in certain environments this bonus was extremely powerful but that it wasn't having a negative effect on the game overall and we should leave it alone. I'm not sure if anyone remembers by now but when I casually mentioned changing this bonus during a Reddit AMA there was an outcry to prevent us from doing that at all costs.

Internally we are a bit divided even though we all agree it's one of the game's most powerful bonuses. I want to try and leave it because unique points of power like this one, as long as they aren't oppressive, are more interesting than moving everything towards a middle ground.


75% or 80% webs would still be unique and powerful, without being 500% as strong as normal webs. And it would take more than 2 webs to get an effect that cannot be matched by any number of normal webs.

Edit: For the same reason, web resistance will be incredibly difficult to balance.

10% web resist (so like 2%/level) gives you 65% more velocity against 4 webs, and 25% more speed against a single web.

With strength bonused webs, 10% web resist gives you double the velocity against 1 web.

If you go with a more normal "size" bonus, and give 25% web resist, you get 62% against a single normal web, and 350% velocity against 1 90% web. The bonus against multiple webs becomes even larger.


Now that you've done the math, perhaps you could try to explain what is the actual problem these 90% webs create.

In what ways do the Serpentis tip the balance of PVP on Tranquility? Please also explain the fact that almost nobody ever flies any of them.
Arthur Aihaken
Kenshin Academia.
Kenshin Shogunate.
#549 - 2014-04-08 17:58:59 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
It will be 50% increase for all of them so 4.5 for the Cynabal.

So 7.5 AU/s for the Dramiel and 3.0 AU/s for the Machariel?

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Major Trant
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#550 - 2014-04-08 17:59:06 UTC
A year ago the Cynabal could have done with a nerf, but since then you have buffed just about everything up and it is finally in a decent balanced position... and now you hit it with the nerf bat?

Your summary of the changes is ridiculous, did someone else write the detailed section:
. Warp speed multiplier increased (moves through space more like a frigate now)
. Slight fitting tweaks

The actual changes:
Nerf
. -120 PG
. -15 CPU
. -25 Armor
. +200,000 Mass
. -33 Scan Res
. +5 Sig radius

Buff
. -1250ms Recharge
. +6 Velocity
. -.0045 Agility
. +2 Sensor Strength
. Some sort of warp speed improvements

You are hitting it right in the balls, with nerfs to it's kiting ability and that PG hit will crucify all current fits. It is a bigger target, with a slower lock time. The buffs to Velocity and Agility will be offset by the increased mass, the recharge and warp speed improvements are just window dressing, no use to anyone.
Spugg Galdon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#551 - 2014-04-08 18:04:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Spugg Galdon
I've been doing some theory crafting and number crunching on a web resistance bonus for the Cynabal.

The results are interesting:

Currently a Cynabal under AB does 865 m/s

with standard webs speed reduction looks like this:

865 -> 345 -> 165 with one and two 60% webs respectfully
865 -> 86 with one 90% web


with a 6% per level (30% lvl 5) web resistance bonus this looks like:

865 -> 501 -> 316 with one and two 60% webs respectfully
865 -> 406 with one 90% web

If we look at MWD speeds:

2500 -> 998 -> 478 with one and two 60% webs
2500 -> 250 with one 90% web

with a 6% per level (30% lvl 5) web resistance bonus this looks like:

2500 -> 1450 -> 914 with one and two 60% webs
2500 -> 1175 with one 90% web

I don't think these changes would be ground breaking and would give the Angel ships a certain "Buzz". The effectiveness of this bonus would be felt the most on the Dramiel of course and the Macharial would get the least. I don't have a problem with this so I would propose:

CYNABAL

Gallente Cruiser Bonus:
10% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret falloff

Minmatar Cruiser Bonus:
6% resistance to effectiveness of incoming stasis webifiers per level
or 20% medium projectile damage

Role Bonus:
100% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret Damage (this leaves the ship with the same effective turrets as the RoF and damage bonuses combined)
or 30% Web Resistance
note: This ship has increased warp speed and acceleration


Slot layout: 5H, 5M, 5L; 4 turrets, 0 launchers
Fittings: 980 PWG(-120), 335 CPU(-15)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 2330 / 2300(-25) / 2065
Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 1415 / 490000(-1250) / 2.88
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 263(+6) / .45(-.0045) / 9047000(+200000) / 5.64s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50 / 50
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 47km(+2km) / 390(-33) / 7
Sensor strength: 18(+2)
Signature radius: 115(+5)
Carmen Electra
AlcoDOTTE
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#552 - 2014-04-08 18:05:57 UTC
Koizumi Atsuchi wrote:
Longdrinks wrote:
Carmen Electra wrote:

Also, I'm a little unclear on where the Cynabal stands now. Giving it a warp speed bonus feels a big gimmicky. Gimmicky is fine as long as this token bonus isn't being used to justify a nerf elsewhere. If you're doing fleet warps, it'll be a moot point point 90% of the time. I can't say that warp speed comes up too often in our PvP postmortems. Ugh

That creates a oppertunity for more skilled players who can warp individually without handholding from a fc to excel. Sounds good to me.


Whats the point giving a cruiser higher warp speed and nerfing its fitting capabilities. So it becomes a big interceptor. What you gonna use it for, to tackle carriers equiping small guns to fight off drones? Ridiculous. Whats good of your warping speed when your fighting abilities are highly crippled?


Pretty much this. First off, warping separately from your FC is not really an indicator of anything besides lack of coordination unless you're tackle, ecm, links, or logi. The recent warp speed changes were sensible changes. There's something intuitive about an interceptor getting from A to B faster than a battleship. However, that's more for travel than PvP.

CCP Rise, do you rig any of your PvP cruisers with warp speed rigs? If the answer is no, then perhaps you can understand why I'd feel it's silly to nerf an already outclassed ship to justify a warp speed bump that won't amount to much, if anything, at the end of the day.

Make it 20 AU/s like the Leopard, then we would have something interesting on our hands. A 50% warp speed bump however would not really warrant special Cynabal squads or anything else where people would go out of their way to exploit a ship's role. (This is the whole point of this, right?)

Bacon makes us stronger
Arthur Aihaken
Kenshin Academia.
Kenshin Shogunate.
#553 - 2014-04-08 18:07:08 UTC
Sniper Smith wrote:
The missile pirate faction doesn't exist yet. There's Lasers, Projectiles, Drones x2, and Hybrids. Missile faction coming soon.. maybe. Minm+Caldari faction.

I was hoping it might be released to coincide with the Pirate rebalance...

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
scorchlikeshiswhiskey
Totally Abstract
O X I D E
#554 - 2014-04-08 18:11:02 UTC
Arthur Aihaken wrote:
Sniper Smith wrote:
The missile pirate faction doesn't exist yet. There's Lasers, Projectiles, Drones x2, and Hybrids. Missile faction coming soon.. maybe. Minm+Caldari faction.

I was hoping it might be released to coincide with the Pirate rebalance...

So was I. That way I could be underwhelmed all at once instead of several times.
I think it's safe to say that a pirate missile BS will probably have less launchers (effective or otherwise) than a Navy Raven as 8 appears to be the upper limit for launchers, this means that it will have a more niche role that will probably be nifty for all of 5 minutes before being too expensive for PVE and too slow on damage for PVP.
But that's a whole 'nother nest of issues that we can save for that roll-out in a few days.

Redjon Gilead Aerten
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#555 - 2014-04-08 18:11:40 UTC
I'd be okay with the powergrid nerf as from playing with EFT decent fits still seem possible, The real kick in the balls that renders even the warp speed pointless is the increase in Mass and decrease in agility, Which as I said earlier seems utterly at odds with the whole point of Angel ships.

Fast and Agile..... Now its a space pig that can .....i guess show up faster to die?

drop the power grid by 120 if you must, But just leave the rest alone at least and buff warp? .
Kmelx
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#556 - 2014-04-08 18:14:37 UTC
Sniper Smith wrote:
And as CCP has been nice enough to say several times now, including in this thread, it's not changing.


Actually no they haven't, Rise, Fozzie and Ytrrebium have all put forward or stated their agreement to the idea of nerfing 90% webs before, however, as Rise noted in his post, the last time it was mentioned in passing it spawned a forum threadnought full of ship toasting from people who wanted to continue abusing this OP bonus.
christmascaveman
State War Academy
Caldari State
#557 - 2014-04-08 18:14:38 UTC  |  Edited by: christmascaveman
One option for the cynabal is to take it in a different direction and have it be a faction logistics ship


  • 1) lack of tech II resists means it would use speed to negate dmg, a role it already does.
  • 2) A warp speed bonus would allow it to keep up with frig gangs. Logistics frigs do not rep enough, and cruiser hulls just don't warp fast enough to keep up
  • 3) Because of its ability to kite, limit its rep range to around 50km
  • 4) Other bonus options are to negate the penalties of fitting plates and let it be used with fast armor frigs
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#558 - 2014-04-08 18:16:05 UTC
Chris Winter wrote:
Catherine Laartii wrote:
3. I'm still sort of scratching my head over this one. While I'm pleased that the Gila is no longer stupidly OP with big drones, I can see issues with it being vulnerable against frigates, although that could be mitigated somewhat with mounting rapid launchers. Aside from that, I see it being unnaturally effective in shield fleets as it will be far and away the best ship at high-end long-range damage projection in the entire faction cruiser line, navy vexor included. Now, I can only hope that a moa remodel comes along with this so I can fly the Gila without throwing up over the model...

Uh...what? Did you miss the part where the Gila's drone bonus is only to medium drones? Those are hardly a "long range" weapon system.


No I did not in fact, miss the part where they're only to medium drones, hence my concern with them being vulnerable to frigates. 50+km effective range with potentially full damage qualifies it as a 'long-range' weapon to me.
Arthur Aihaken
Kenshin Academia.
Kenshin Shogunate.
#559 - 2014-04-08 18:22:41 UTC
christmascaveman wrote:
One option for the cynabal is to take it in a different direction and have it be a faction logistics ship

Yes, let's turn it into the Nestor "light". No, no and no - dumbest idea proposed yet.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Naomi Anthar
#560 - 2014-04-08 18:23:37 UTC
Wow thanks for keeping quiet substantial pwg nerf on vigilant while you save Cyna/Ashimmu !!! Gj Rise. Cynas should stay as good as they are and Ashimmu won't suffer with pwg since it won't fit one more med neut/nos at all.