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[Kronos] Pirate Faction Cruisers

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Sniper Smith
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#501 - 2014-04-08 16:40:47 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
Sniper Smith wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
Quick name 5 ships appreciably faster than a daredevil

Dramiel, Ares, Taranis, Crow, Raptor, Crusader, Malediction, Claw, Stiletto, Atron, Condor, Executioner, Slasher, Vigil, and I'm sure there are probably more.


Er, no.

Not only are many of those slower than the current daredevil, the rest are within a small margin of its speed.

All of them are 400m/s+.. Daredevil is 384m/s Currently. Unless I made a mistake on one or two, which is possible.

Simple fact is, you can still kite it, or you know, not engage it.

Which all these OP webs, I'm shocked that I never see roaming gangs of Daredevils, Vigilants, or VIndi's just all over lowsec killing everything without remorse.. Guess they must hide when I'm flying around.
Xavier Azabu
Half Empty
xqtywiznalamywmodxfhhopawzpqyjdwrpeptuaenabjawdzku
#502 - 2014-04-08 16:42:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Xavier Azabu
CCP Rise wrote:
...

...We spent time playing with the Vigilant in a lot of different configurations and feel completely confident in the current fitting numbers.


Post-nerf?

I just don't understand why anyone would buy it. Sure there are some other lackluster ships. Like we keep repeating - the Vigilant is overshadowed because of its price right now relative to other ships that do basically the same brawling or webbing duty. It's not worth the cost as is and it won't be with less powergrid. That's why this whole "nerf it or not" discussion regarding the Vigilant comes in. It's not a "generalist" ship either. It's mediocre for its price. It's a Thorax that has a little more tank or dps and a web bonus. There's not an incredible amount of options for fitting variety in the new version.

You've got me generally enthusiastic about some of the other changes and relieved that the Cynabal won't be as trashed... Thanks for trying.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#503 - 2014-04-08 16:42:14 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Alright, you guys are getting major real time updates here, I might as well start live tweeting our meetings!

With regards to the Cynabal - we are not going to try and add some kind of web/scram immunity/resistance. While this kind of bonus would certainly be fun, it would force us to make severe changes to all three Angel ships to compensate for the increased power, which would surely feel terrible for all the people enjoying them now. This would be especially true for PVE players who couldn't make use of the new bonus but would be stuck with a much worse ship than they are used to.

The option we do feel good about is warp speed. It supports the hit and run playstyle that Angels are already best at without forcing us to make changes to the combat performance. So, we are looking at roughly a 50% increase in warp speed and acceleration for all three, putting the Cynabal at warp speed multiplier of 5, which is basically destroyer speed. I've also updated the OP with a new powergrid number.

We've also adjusted powergrid on the Ashimmu to make some more room for those PG heavy energy war mods.

We spent time playing with the Vigilant in a lot of different configurations and feel completely confident in the current fitting numbers.

Hope this makes you Angel fans more excited


cool beans! a big step in the right direction

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#504 - 2014-04-08 16:43:49 UTC
Sniper Smith wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
Sniper Smith wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
Quick name 5 ships appreciably faster than a daredevil

Dramiel, Ares, Taranis, Crow, Raptor, Crusader, Malediction, Claw, Stiletto, Atron, Condor, Executioner, Slasher, Vigil, and I'm sure there are probably more.


Er, no.

Not only are many of those slower than the current daredevil, the rest are within a small margin of its speed.

All of them are 400m/s+.. Daredevil is 384m/s Currently. Unless I made a mistake on one or two, which is possible.

Simple fact is, you can still kite it, or you know, not engage it.

Which all these OP webs, I'm shocked that I never see roaming gangs of Daredevils, Vigilants, or VIndi's just all over lowsec killing everything without remorse.. Guess they must hide when I'm flying around.


More things affect speed than base speedt. Frigates often fit propulsion modules (such as afterburners and microwarpdrives).

You can not engage it? That sounds like something that is well balanced? Are you joking?
Callic Veratar
#505 - 2014-04-08 16:44:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Callic Veratar
I like the idea of suddenly a fleet of Cynabals landing on grid with only a few seconds of D-Scan time.

I can totally appreciate the concern with adding web resistance. It might be better to try that out with a new T3 (Loki propulsion) subsystem or a new hull, rather than one that's well established. Setting it at any degree that's worthwhile would be very powerful.

Maybe keep it in mind for a future Minmatar/Amarr (Ammatar?) Lasers/Armor based Rifter/Stabber/Typhoon set?
Sniper Smith
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#506 - 2014-04-08 16:46:39 UTC
Don't engage what you can't kill, it's really common sense. And in my experience, a tactic well known all over eve, to flee from anything that looks like it might actually kill them first. Which the bar is rarely set at "It would be an even match".. it's "I'll kill him without issue" or "Run!" .. With every now and then a mix of "Warp to me, he's starting to win".
Mehashi 'Kho
New Eden Motion Pictures
#507 - 2014-04-08 16:46:45 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
Sniper Smith wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
Sniper Smith wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
Quick name 5 ships appreciably faster than a daredevil

Dramiel, Ares, Taranis, Crow, Raptor, Crusader, Malediction, Claw, Stiletto, Atron, Condor, Executioner, Slasher, Vigil, and I'm sure there are probably more.


Er, no.

Not only are many of those slower than the current daredevil, the rest are within a small margin of its speed.

All of them are 400m/s+.. Daredevil is 384m/s Currently. Unless I made a mistake on one or two, which is possible.

Simple fact is, you can still kite it, or you know, not engage it.

Which all these OP webs, I'm shocked that I never see roaming gangs of Daredevils, Vigilants, or VIndi's just all over lowsec killing everything without remorse.. Guess they must hide when I'm flying around.


More things affect speed than base speedt. Frigates often fit propulsion modules (such as afterburners and microwarpdrives).

You can not engage it? That sounds like something that is well balanced? Are you joking?

Just engage it with any kity ship with a sensor damp in a mid slot, dd can barely lock the end of its own snout.
CCP Rise
C C P
C C P Alliance
#508 - 2014-04-08 16:47:52 UTC
The Serpentis web bonus is extremely strong. We went into this balance pass thinking it was probably too strong and that we may need to tune it down. In the first Pirate Faction thread (the Frigates) I asked specifically for feedback on this bonus and how players felt about it. We also brought it up with the CSM during the summit.

The vast majority of feedback from all angles pointed towards an agreement that in certain environments this bonus was extremely powerful but that it wasn't having a negative effect on the game overall and we should leave it alone. I'm not sure if anyone remembers by now but when I casually mentioned changing this bonus during a Reddit AMA there was an outcry to prevent us from doing that at all costs.

Internally we are a bit divided even though we all agree it's one of the game's most powerful bonuses. I want to try and leave it because unique points of power like this one, as long as they aren't oppressive, are more interesting than moving everything towards a middle ground.

@ccp_rise
Jon Joringer
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#509 - 2014-04-08 16:48:17 UTC
Warp speed bonus helps the Angel ships have at least some flavor and usefulness (better for roaming and guerrilla tactics). They still just seem 'meh' though. Not really sure why. Maybe it's because autocannons are 'meh.'
CCP Rise
C C P
C C P Alliance
#510 - 2014-04-08 16:48:34 UTC
Callic Veratar wrote:
I like the idea of suddenly a fleet of Cynabals landing on grid with only a few seconds of D-Scan time.

I can totally appreciate the concern with adding web resistance. It might be better to try that out with a new T3 (Loki propulsion) subsystem or a new hull, rather than one that's well established. Setting it at any degree that's worthwhile would be very powerful.

Maybe keep it in mind for a future Minmatar/Amarr (Ammatar?) Lasers/Armor based Rifter/Stabber/Typhoon set?


Yes, I think it's definitely an idea we can hang on to for the future Smile

@ccp_rise
Sniper Smith
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#511 - 2014-04-08 16:50:13 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
The Serpentis web bonus is extremely strong. We went into this balance pass thinking it was probably too strong and that we may need to tune it down. In the first Pirate Faction thread (the Frigates) I asked specifically for feedback on this bonus and how players felt about it. We also brought it up with the CSM during the summit.

The vast majority of feedback from all angles pointed towards an agreement that in certain environments this bonus was extremely powerful but that it wasn't having a negative effect on the game overall and we should leave it alone. I'm not sure if anyone remembers by now but when I casually mentioned changing this bonus during a Reddit AMA there was an outcry to prevent us from doing that at all costs.

Internally we are a bit divided even though we all agree it's one of the game's most powerful bonuses. I want to try and leave it because unique points of power like this one, as long as they aren't oppressive, are more interesting than moving everything towards a middle ground.

I love it.

This statement almost makes up for what you are doing to the GIla.
Almost.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#512 - 2014-04-08 16:50:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Michael Harari
CCP Rise wrote:
The Serpentis web bonus is extremely strong. We went into this balance pass thinking it was probably too strong and that we may need to tune it down. In the first Pirate Faction thread (the Frigates) I asked specifically for feedback on this bonus and how players felt about it. We also brought it up with the CSM during the summit.

The vast majority of feedback from all angles pointed towards an agreement that in certain environments this bonus was extremely powerful but that it wasn't having a negative effect on the game overall and we should leave it alone. I'm not sure if anyone remembers by now but when I casually mentioned changing this bonus during a Reddit AMA there was an outcry to prevent us from doing that at all costs.

Internally we are a bit divided even though we all agree it's one of the game's most powerful bonuses. I want to try and leave it because unique points of power like this one, as long as they aren't oppressive, are more interesting than moving everything towards a middle ground.


75% or 80% webs would still be unique and powerful, without being 500% as strong as normal webs. And it would take more than 2 webs to get an effect that cannot be matched by any number of normal webs.

Edit: For the same reason, web resistance will be incredibly difficult to balance.

10% web resist (so like 2%/level) gives you 65% more velocity against 4 webs, and 25% more speed against a single web.

With strength bonused webs, 10% web resist gives you double the velocity against 1 web.

If you go with a more normal "size" bonus, and give 25% web resist, you get 62% against a single normal web, and 350% velocity against 1 90% web. The bonus against multiple webs becomes even larger.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#513 - 2014-04-08 16:50:32 UTC
ok so the Angel theme is hit and run

- stronger emphasis on shield tank and projectile range
- warp speed changes makes sense
- low sig radius since its mwd'ing around would makes sense alongside a mwd sig bonus would be good

CYNABAL

Gallente Cruiser Bonus:
15% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret falloff

Minmatar Cruiser Bonus:
10% mwd sig penalty reduction .. was(10% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret damage)

Role Bonus:
50% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret rate of fire
note: This ship has increased warp speed and acceleration

Slot layout: 5H, 5M, 5L; 4 turrets, 0 launchers
Fittings: 980 PWG(-120), 335 CPU(-15)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 2330 / 1600(-725) / 2065
Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 1415 / 490000(-1250) / 2.88
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 263(+6) / .45(-.0045) / 9047000(+200000) / 5.64s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 20 / 20
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 47km(+2km) / 390(-33) / 7
Sensor strength: 18(+2)
Signature radius: 100 (-10)

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Randolph Sykes
Yukkuri Pharmaceuticals
#514 - 2014-04-08 16:51:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Randolph Sykes
CCP Rise wrote:

CYNABAL

//...

Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 263(+6) / .45(-.0045) / 9047000(+200000) / 5.64s

Is that a typo? Cynabal has 0.42 agility modifier now.

I hope it's a typo.Straight
Arthur Aihaken
CODE.d
#515 - 2014-04-08 16:53:43 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
The option we do feel good about is warp speed. It supports the hit and run playstyle that Angels are already best at without forcing us to make changes to the combat performance. So, we are looking at roughly a 50% increase in warp speed and acceleration for all three, putting the Cynabal at warp speed multiplier of 5, which is basically destroyer speed. I've also updated the OP with a new powergrid number.

A warp speed of 5 for the Cynabal and 3 for the Machariel is something I can get behind (and something that's actually useful for PvE). Can something finally be done with the abhorrent and unsightly turret layout on the Machariel? The 7 turrets are effectively 11.66 turrets (7 / 0.75 x 1.25), so what about dropping the Machariel to 6 turrets, swapping a high slot out for another low (so it has more options for an armor tank) and increasing the rate of fire role bonus from 25% to 37.5%? It's a slight buff (+2.8%) to 12 effective turrets (6 / 0.625 x 1.25) but the extra low slot really opens up a lot of possibilities.

And the Nestor… This needs to be included in the Pirate rebalance if only to have a dialog on what can be done to improve it. It's not well-suited to either the logistics or scanning role.

I am currently away, traveling through time and will be returning last week.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#516 - 2014-04-08 16:54:10 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
The Serpentis web bonus is extremely strong. We went into this balance pass thinking it was probably too strong and that we may need to tune it down. In the first Pirate Faction thread (the Frigates) I asked specifically for feedback on this bonus and how players felt about it. We also brought it up with the CSM during the summit.

The vast majority of feedback from all angles pointed towards an agreement that in certain environments this bonus was extremely powerful but that it wasn't having a negative effect on the game overall and we should leave it alone. I'm not sure if anyone remembers by now but when I casually mentioned changing this bonus during a Reddit AMA there was an outcry to prevent us from doing that at all costs.

Internally we are a bit divided even though we all agree it's one of the game's most powerful bonuses. I want to try and leave it because unique points of power like this one, as long as they aren't oppressive, are more interesting than moving everything towards a middle ground.


so how about nerfing webs? maybe 40 -45% at T2
maybe add a web strength skill so it takes some time investment to be able to use such strong e-war and tie T2 webs to it at lv5
so with T2 web and lv5 web strength skill you could get maybe 50% max

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Cannibal Kane
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#517 - 2014-04-08 16:54:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Cannibal Kane
CCP Rise wrote:
The Serpentis web bonus is extremely strong. We went into this balance pass thinking it was probably too strong and that we may need to tune it down. In the first Pirate Faction thread (the Frigates) I asked specifically for feedback on this bonus and how players felt about it. We also brought it up with the CSM during the summit.

The vast majority of feedback from all angles pointed towards an agreement that in certain environments this bonus was extremely powerful but that it wasn't having a negative effect on the game overall and we should leave it alone. I'm not sure if anyone remembers by now but when I casually mentioned changing this bonus during a Reddit AMA there was an outcry to prevent us from doing that at all costs.

Internally we are a bit divided even though we all agree it's one of the game's most powerful bonuses. I want to try and leave it because unique points of power like this one, as long as they aren't oppressive, are more interesting than moving everything towards a middle ground.


Well it will be used a lot less now that the Vigi is being nerfed a bit. It is already an extremely niche ship flown by people that like it. And it is a ship you rarely see... Now made even less desirable.

I though the reason for these so called balancing was to make ship more appealing to fly? I have seen some good changes with the other stuff (Still dislike the fact that you removed the Web Bonus from the Kronos), here though it seems you guys are sitting the bloody pot miss with the pirate cruisers bar the Phantasm.

"Kane is the End Boss of Highsec." -Psychotic Monk
NinjaTurtle
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#518 - 2014-04-08 16:59:05 UTC
Changes look pretty interesting all in all but really, Cynabal needs a role.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#519 - 2014-04-08 16:59:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Michael Harari
Imagine if a drake with 2 invulns had better tank than any other ship in the game could get with any number of slots devoted to tank. Would that be a well balanced ship?

If serpentis had what the bonus intended (50% stronger webs) it wouldnt be an issue. But what they actually have is 500% web power.
Silivar Karkun
Doomheim
#520 - 2014-04-08 17:00:37 UTC
so, the Gila now has the same idiotic bonus as the worm, and its bandwidth is nerfed so in case of getting attacked by frigates it has only the backup of 4 unbonused light drones.....pfffff....