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[Kronos] Pirate Faction Cruisers

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Spugg Galdon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#481 - 2014-04-08 16:21:25 UTC
CYNABAL

Gallente Cruiser Bonus:
10% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret falloff

Minmatar Cruiser Bonus:
10% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret damage

Role Bonus:
25% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret rate of fire
note: This ship has increased warp speed and acceleration


Slot layout: 5H, 5M, 5L; 4 turrets, 0 launchers
Fittings: 980 PWG(-120), 335 CPU(-15)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 2330 / 2300(-25) / 2065
Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 1415 / 490000(-1250) / 2.88
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 263(+6) / .45(-.0045) / 9047000(+200000) / 5.64s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50 / 50
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 47km(+2km) / 390(-33) / 7
Sensor strength: 18(+2)
Signature radius: 115(+5)

I still feel that this isn't enough to make this ship "interesting". It's just a fast warping Fleet Stabber/Scythe. Nothing notably "Special" about the Angel line up.

Serpentis get OP webs (which I'm fine with)
Blood Raiders get crazy energy warfare AND long range webs
Sansha get bonkers afterburners
Guristas get obscene drones
Angels get speedStraight

I feel that giving the Angel ships a 7.5% resistance to stasis Webifiers Effect per minmatar ship skill level and changing the role bonus to 100% damage bonus (compensates for the lack of 50% damage bonus and RoF role bonus) would make these ships far more interesting.
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#482 - 2014-04-08 16:22:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Medalyn Isis
CCP Rise wrote:
Alright, you guys are getting major real time updates here, I might as well start live tweeting our meetings!

With regards to the Cynabal - we are not going to try and add some kind of web/scram immunity/resistance. While this kind of bonus would certainly be fun, it would force us to make severe changes to all three Angel ships to compensate for the increased power, which would surely feel terrible for all the people enjoying them now. This would be especially true for PVE players who couldn't make use of the new bonus but would be stuck with a much worse ship than they are used to.

The option we do feel good about is warp speed. It supports the hit and run playstyle that Angels are already best at without forcing us to make changes to the combat performance. So, we are looking at roughly a 50% increase in warp speed and acceleration for all three, putting the Cynabal at warp speed multiplier of 5, which is basically destroyer speed. I've also updated the OP with a new powergrid number.

We've also adjusted powergrid on the Ashimmu to make some more room for those PG heavy energy war mods.

We spent time playing with the Vigilant in a lot of different configurations and feel completely confident in the current fitting numbers.

Hope this makes you Angel fans more excited

Very nice. I'm happy with that plan for the angel ships, going to be a lot of fun with the extra warp speed. Great change there. And considering the fact that increased warp speed also decreases the time to get up to max warp speed, the angel ships are going to be quite a handful to be up against. Cynabel warping at destroyer speed is going to be lethal. Also is this going to be transferred to the dramiel, as that would be great.

Also, awesome that you are increasing the PG on Ashimmu, it should be possible to fit a full rack of nuets or there is little point in the ship imo. So hopefully that is possible.

Any chance for a comment on what you think of 90% webs though Rise? Are they here to stay? I wouldn't mind a decrease in web strength across the board to be honest.

Also thanks for the live updates, it is much appreciated.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#483 - 2014-04-08 16:23:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Michael Harari
Spugg Galdon wrote:
C
I still feel that this isn't enough to make this ship "interesting". It's just a fast warping Fleet Stabber/Scythe. Nothing notably "Special" about the Angel line up.


Considering neither of those ships gets a projection bonus, no, you are wrong.

The closest comparison is the vagabond, and trading hac bonuses for 5th mid makes for a different ship.
Phaade
LowKey Ops
Shadow Cartel
#484 - 2014-04-08 16:23:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Phaade
90% webs need to go away.

they have the effectiveness of 2.5 tech II webs........

Not cool.

EDIT: Rest of the changes are most epic.

Web resistance would be an interesting addition to Angel ships. They are still really effective but, don't do anything unusual like the other factions.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#485 - 2014-04-08 16:24:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Michael Harari
Phaade wrote:
90% webs need to go away.

they have the effectiveness of 2.5 tech II webs........

Not cool.

EDIT: Rest of the changes are most epic.


They have the effectiveness of 5 t2 webs actually.

Edit: Actually, 1 90% web has the effectiveness of 5 t2 webs, 2 90% webs have the effectiveness that cant be matched by any number of t2 webs. Not 10, not 100, not 10^10
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#486 - 2014-04-08 16:25:07 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Alright, you guys are getting major real time updates here, I might as well start live tweeting our meetings!

With regards to the Cynabal - we are not going to try and add some kind of web/scram immunity/resistance. While this kind of bonus would certainly be fun, it would force us to make severe changes to all three Angel ships to compensate for the increased power, which would surely feel terrible for all the people enjoying them now. This would be especially true for PVE players who couldn't make use of the new bonus but would be stuck with a much worse ship than they are used to.

The option we do feel good about is warp speed. It supports the hit and run playstyle that Angels are already best at without forcing us to make changes to the combat performance. So, we are looking at roughly a 50% increase in warp speed and acceleration for all three, putting the Cynabal at warp speed multiplier of 5, which is basically destroyer speed. I've also updated the OP with a new powergrid number.

We've also adjusted powergrid on the Ashimmu to make some more room for those PG heavy energy war mods.

We spent time playing with the Vigilant in a lot of different configurations and feel completely confident in the current fitting numbers.

Hope this makes you Angel fans more excited


its a start i guess .. it will need more specific differences from minnie ships though

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Phaade
LowKey Ops
Shadow Cartel
#487 - 2014-04-08 16:27:32 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
Phaade wrote:
90% webs need to go away.

they have the effectiveness of 2.5 tech II webs........

Not cool.

EDIT: Rest of the changes are most epic.


They have the effectiveness of 5 t2 webs actually.

Edit: Actually, 1 90% web has the effectiveness of 5 t2 webs, 2 90% webs have the effectiveness that cant be matched by any number of t2 webs. Not 10, not 100, not 10^10



No man, starting at 1km/s, 1 web brings you to 400m/s, 2nd brings you to 160m/s, third brings you to 64m/s.

90% web takes you from 1km/s to 100 m/s.

They have the effectiveness of roughly 2.5 t2 webs.
Sniper Smith
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#488 - 2014-04-08 16:28:07 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
There's some sentiment (as there often seems to be) that these changes somehow pigeonhole ships into roles that we have explicitly defined rather than allowing for more open or generalized ships. I would say that while some roles have shifted (no more Sentry Drones for the Gila being the best example), Pirate Faction ships remain a set of very good generalists. We have an opportunity, because of their flavor and cost, to give them some very interesting capabilities that go a bit outside the box, which is great, but we haven't tried to restrict them to a specific environment at all. The Gila will still have plenty of PVE application and I think you'd be hard-pressed to find examples of lost capability for the rest of these ships resulting from the proposed changes.



The whole POINT of Droneboats is Utility. They lose some RAW paper DPS, and some real world applied DPS when deploying/recalling/destroyed drones, in exchange for being highly versatile. They have been able to launch any kinds of drones they want, Damage type, and Size, providing it fits inside the bay and they have the bandwidth for. It's what makes a drone boat WORTH flying.

What you are doing to that Gila trashes all of that. It has NO versatilely now. It is tied to a SINGLE weapon system while all the other factions get to chose between at least two (DPS vs Range... Blasters vs Rails, etc.) We don't get that. We get Medium Drones. That's it. Even after the buff they will still be too slow to deal with frigates, and too weak to deal with BS's that have webs. Not only that they no longer have access to any of the Combat Utility Drones that are important. It can't ECM it's way out of a jam, or rep a damaged ally because it can't launch crap.

If you wanted to try this whole limited drones stuff, you should have done it on the Sisters of Eve lineup, a whole NEW lineup of ships. Rather than messing with an existing lineup that has ALREADY found it''s niche, and destroying it.

The way this lineup works would be like giving a Vindicator a bonus to Ion Cannons rather than to all Hybrids You are tying the hands around one weapon. And worst of all, with two out on a GIla, each time they kill one you lose almost half your DPS. I can't kill off Half of a Missile or Turret boats DPS. Until I can target and shoot a Vindi's gun, or a Caracial's launcher, this whole concept is broken.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#489 - 2014-04-08 16:28:08 UTC
Phaade wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
Phaade wrote:
90% webs need to go away.

they have the effectiveness of 2.5 tech II webs........

Not cool.

EDIT: Rest of the changes are most epic.


They have the effectiveness of 5 t2 webs actually.

Edit: Actually, 1 90% web has the effectiveness of 5 t2 webs, 2 90% webs have the effectiveness that cant be matched by any number of t2 webs. Not 10, not 100, not 10^10



No man, starting at 1km/s, 1 web brings you to 400m/s, 2nd brings you to 160m/s, third brings you to 64m/s.

90% web takes you from 1km/s to 100 m/s.

They have the effectiveness of roughly 2.5 t2 webs.



Stacking penalty
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#490 - 2014-04-08 16:29:00 UTC
warp speed change is a nice idea, the fast ceptors changed quite a few things and a chasing stuff with more stable ships is certainly a cool idea, especially with hulls that have a guerillaesque feeling like the pirate hulls
Cannibal Kane
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#491 - 2014-04-08 16:29:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Cannibal Kane
This is the VIGI fit I am currently using.

http://imgur.com/RVgfN3H

That leaves 0.5 PG

I don't have EFT so I am not sure how much I have to sacrifice to to keep 1600 plate and a 10mwd on that ship. Just by having a rough look it seems dropping the neutrons for ions. Since PG requirements for 1 neutron is 187 compared to the 139 of the 1 Ion gun.

Still though... 1 universal demerit for you.

"Kane is the End Boss of Highsec." -Psychotic Monk
Strata Maslav
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#492 - 2014-04-08 16:30:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Strata Maslav
CCP Rise wrote:
Alright, you guys are getting major real time updates here, I might as well start live tweeting our meetings!

With regards to the Cynabal - we are not going to try and add some kind of web/scram immunity/resistance. While this kind of bonus would certainly be fun, it would force us to make severe changes to all three Angel ships to compensate for the increased power, which would surely feel terrible for all the people enjoying them now. This would be especially true for PVE players who couldn't make use of the new bonus but would be stuck with a much worse ship than they are used to.

The option we do feel good about is warp speed. It supports the hit and run playstyle that Angels are already best at without forcing us to make changes to the combat performance. So, we are looking at roughly a 50% increase in warp speed and acceleration for all three, putting the Cynabal at warp speed multiplier of 5, which is basically destroyer speed. I've also updated the OP with a new powergrid number.

We've also adjusted powergrid on the Ashimmu to make some more room for those PG heavy energy war mods.

We spent time playing with the Vigilant in a lot of different configurations and feel completely confident in the current fitting numbers.

Hope this makes you Angel fans more excited


I like the "flavor" this adds, though I was never as concerned about giving the ship a unique bonus (like the Gila) as being concerned about the combat viability of the ship.

With the buffs to other T1/T2 ships with regards to active tanking it struggles to find a role in small scale brawls.

If you are looking for a flavor I would propose a bonus to signature reduction. It fits with the feel of the ship and should give it a much needed sustainability on the battlefield.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#493 - 2014-04-08 16:30:35 UTC
Cannibal Kane wrote:
This is the VIGI fit I am currently using.

http://imgur.com/RVgfN3H

That leaves 0.5 PG

I don't have EFT so I am not sure how much I have to sacrifice to to keep 1600 plate and a 10mwd on that ship.





Probably just a single trimark
Sniper Smith
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#494 - 2014-04-08 16:32:06 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
Quick name 5 ships appreciably faster than a daredevil

Dramiel, Ares, Taranis, Crow, Raptor, Crusader, Malediction, Claw, Stiletto, Atron, Condor, Executioner, Slasher, Vigil, and I'm sure there are probably more.
dexter xio
Dead Game.
#495 - 2014-04-08 16:33:09 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
The option we do feel good about is warp speed. It supports the hit and run playstyle that Angels are already best at without forcing us to make changes to the combat performance. So, we are looking at roughly a 50% increase in warp speed and acceleration for all three, putting the Cynabal at warp speed multiplier of 5, which is basically destroyer speed. I've also updated the OP with a new powergrid number.

Hope this makes you Angel fans more excited


Very much so, my only concern is the Machariel's incoming changes which I hope aren't too extreme, I think the Machariel as it is now is just perfect. Warp speed bonus is really neat thought +1.

Dead Game.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#496 - 2014-04-08 16:33:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Michael Harari
Sniper Smith wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
Quick name 5 ships appreciably faster than a daredevil

Dramiel, Ares, Taranis, Crow, Raptor, Crusader, Malediction, Claw, Stiletto, Atron, Condor, Executioner, Slasher, Vigil, and I'm sure there are probably more.


Er, no.

Not only are many of those slower than the current daredevil, the rest are within a small margin of its speed.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#497 - 2014-04-08 16:38:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:


And as for this ship as PvE, yeah, the NPC AI would like to have a word with you.


So you still don't know how to generate threat (via logistics and ewar) therefore keeping aggro off your drones? This is why you are a horrible example of this game's PVE community, the rest of us figured out how to use drones under the new AI a long time ago.


Oh, you mean last day when I had a web, and a NOS targeted on an elite frig and it STILL went after my light drones?
But hey, you keep pumping out those lies. It is what you are good at.


See what I mean, bad at pve.

Here's what you do. Go to the market. Go find the section NOS (and neuts, and cap transfers) are in. Come back and tell us all if that's ELECTRONIC WARFARE or ENGINEERING.

And then go back and read my post and notice how i said EWAR and Logi (the 2 things npcs hate). Then ask yourself if ENGINEERING is either ewar or logi.....

You have the problems you have because instead of looking inwards, seeing what's missing (like the ability to adapt to a changing game landscape) and fixing that, you take the lazyguy mental short cuts of blaming others (CCP, shadowy cartels, libertarians lol). This is a good example, you don't understand the threat generation aspect of modern EVE pve and rather than learn it, you crusade against ccp/fozzie/whoever.

People who are actually good at PVE know how to do it. This is one way i do it with a Gila:

[Gila, afk Sweeper]
Power Diagnostic System II
Power Diagnostic System II
Drone Damage Amplifier II
Drone Damage Amplifier II

Cap Recharger II
Phased Muon Sensor Disruptor I
Caldari Navy Thermic Dissipation Field
Kinetic Deflection Field II
Pithum C-Type Medium Shield Booster
10MN Afterburner II

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Auto-Targeting Heavy Missile I
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Auto-Targeting Heavy Missile I
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Scourge Auto-Targeting Heavy Missile I
Small 'Solace' Remote Armor Repairer
Small 'Atonement' Remote Shield Booster

Medium Capacitor Control Circuit II
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I

Ogre II x5
Ogre II x2
Hammerhead II x7
Hobgoblin II x7

Plus hardwirings for cap and a partial low grade crystal set , this set up is for guristas/serpentis lvl 4 missions. 750 dps so not the fastest, but semi afk so I'm doing something on another screen. Capstable with the armor rep off. I set approach on an ogre and in the missions where the rats are fairly close i don't even have to pay attention to them going out of rep range. In longer ranged missions i pop out a can and remote rep it while orbitting it, NPCs don't know the difference. That gila is skill intensive but i've done lvl 3s with a t1 vexor using the same principles. Damp goes on a structure (again, NPCs don't know the difference).

Edit: and the FoF missiles are there to say "screw yo ECMs/Damps and yo couch damn Sers/guristas"

In the 3 months i used it i lost 4 or 5 Ogre IIs.

The new Gila is going to be even better at semi-afking with its super tough medium drones.

TL;DR Learn2 Carebear Properly before complaining.
Cannibal Kane
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#498 - 2014-04-08 16:38:45 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
Cannibal Kane wrote:
This is the VIGI fit I am currently using.

http://imgur.com/RVgfN3H

That leaves 0.5 PG

I don't have EFT so I am not sure how much I have to sacrifice to to keep 1600 plate and a 10mwd on that ship.





Probably just a single trimark


Or cycle down from Neutrons to Ions.

"Kane is the End Boss of Highsec." -Psychotic Monk
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#499 - 2014-04-08 16:40:27 UTC
Sniper Smith wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
Quick name 5 ships appreciably faster than a daredevil

Dramiel, Ares, Taranis, Crow, Raptor, Crusader, Malediction, Claw, Stiletto, Atron, Condor, Executioner, Slasher, Vigil, and I'm sure there are probably more.

hint: the daredevil has four lows
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#500 - 2014-04-08 16:40:31 UTC
frigate have 5 warp speed , dessies 4.5

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using