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Dev Blog: Giving Drones an Assist

First post First post
Author
STush T
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#801 - 2014-04-07 02:33:31 UTC
The only way CCP/Fozzie pays attention to anything we say is to have a united front. Otherwise were just noise(ex. threadnoughts that accomplish nothing). Id like to see csm organize the complaints, then bring them to Fozzie and demand attention and accountability. This applies to all "feedback" since most of it is just ignored and we all are just wasting our time.

So with that in mind I wont be wasting my time here voicing my concerns, things like

-Once i had a maxed skilled sentry user, come summer i have to train more just to get back what i had. . . heres an idea for endgame mechanic, offer us a ship that would take 1 year to train into, 13 months later make the skill time 2 years and so on. This way there is always something to be training for. Fun right? And after you get bored of making us retrain, just change the role of the ship.
-The dominix (and other ships) were updated, now mods for that ship are changing, shouldnt it be updated again?
-know nothing about caps, but sounds like people have good reason to be pissed.
-There are more things terrible with drones then there are good, but this is what you choose to work on? Not the god awful ui?
-Advice to new players, train towards things that have just been updated, that way they might still be the same thing when you actually train into it.

So things like that arent worth the time to be mentioned.

Drones, pssht, who cares, how about CCP actively work on things to make EVE as a universe better. Dinsdale cloud/nebula, deep space, wormholes that are actually a mystery. Content, i believe its called. Although I feel for the guys stuck in SOV, maybe split CCP down the middle, half to new content, the other to actually make old content its prime.

. . .tangent just a bit. 40+ pages in i think its okay to though.
Georgiy Giggle
REFORD Division
REFORD
#802 - 2014-04-07 07:21:16 UTC
Finaly, CCP's bringing something good to EVE.

P.S. Ship painting sucks. Awesome idea, awful realisation.

Not mastering proprieties, won't become firmly established. - Confucius

Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#803 - 2014-04-07 07:23:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Tauranon
Tippia wrote:
Barton Breau wrote:
So what you have talked yourself into:
800 dps (now) - OK
760 dps (after change+-) - OK, we need this because of the dda
930 dps (officer dda now) - OK
800-930 dps (faction dda) - SILLY, NERF
Nope. The 800 now is not ok; the 930 with oDDAs now is not ok; the 760 is not what we'll see after the change.

What I'm saying is that averages will go up as more effective and yet not hilariously rare DDAs will be available. To keep those averages from rising when what they want is for them to go down, they bring everything down a bit more than might be expected.

Quote:
You may want to explain where you see silly output
In the average 1200+ DPS that those drone boats can deliver.


In all fairness a ~1195 dps dominix needed the following mods to be viable (as in tank the anomaly long enough to not have to warp out), and had no prop mod, and the fitting pattern was not generally applicable to missions, just to ratting and a couple of missions that don't require prop mods (or long range).

6x350mm railgun II (navy antimatter - which doesn't actually make sense to use economically when ratting).
pith b-type xl-shield booster, pith b-type kinetic hardener, pith b-type thermic hardener, cap recharger II, fed navy Omni
4x dda II, 2x fed navy magstab, 1x coprocessor II

2x large ccc II, 1x large drone control range rig.

gardes, wardens, lights, ecms
(hull ~185 jita, fit ~540m jita).
I'd presume post patch, that will be an extra 200m for 2 faction DDAs (I probably wouldn't bother with 4).

In any case I don't think it matters as the once this patch hits, I will have to try carriers (and I am not convinced that is good for various sec vs nullsec economic balance).
Andrea Keuvo
Rusty Pricks
#804 - 2014-04-07 12:31:38 UTC
STush T wrote:
The only way CCP/Fozzie pays attention to anything we say is to have a united front. Otherwise were just noise(ex. threadnoughts that accomplish nothing). Id like to see csm organize the complaints, then bring them to Fozzie and demand attention and accountability. This applies to all "feedback" since most of it is just ignored and we all are just wasting our time.

So with that in mind I wont be wasting my time here voicing my concerns, things like

-Once i had a maxed skilled sentry user, come summer i have to train more just to get back what i had. . . heres an idea for endgame mechanic, offer us a ship that would take 1 year to train into, 13 months later make the skill time 2 years and so on. This way there is always something to be training for. Fun right? And after you get bored of making us retrain, just change the role of the ship.
-The dominix (and other ships) were updated, now mods for that ship are changing, shouldnt it be updated again?
-know nothing about caps, but sounds like people have good reason to be pissed.
-There are more things terrible with drones then there are good, but this is what you choose to work on? Not the god awful ui?
-Advice to new players, train towards things that have just been updated, that way they might still be the same thing when you actually train into it.

So things like that arent worth the time to be mentioned.

Drones, pssht, who cares, how about CCP actively work on things to make EVE as a universe better. Dinsdale cloud/nebula, deep space, wormholes that are actually a mystery. Content, i believe its called. Although I feel for the guys stuck in SOV, maybe split CCP down the middle, half to new content, the other to actually make old content its prime.

. . .tangent just a bit. 40+ pages in i think its okay to though.




Here is the thing, the drone UI is legacy code. When you are dealing with legacy code that you don't understand there are easy changes (database value changes, variable/formula changes) which when accompanied by a long dev blog can look like a lot of work was done, and there are hard changes like learning/understanding the legacy code well enough to rewrite/improve it. Yes it makes no sense to make changes like these and leave the horrible UI/mechanics in place but you are talking about a few hours work vs. a few months work.

There is a reason why the last several expansions have been a lot of database/variable/formula changes and not much in the way of fixes to the core problems of some of the UI/mechanics in eve.
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#805 - 2014-04-07 13:16:38 UTC  |  Edited by: seth Hendar
Andrea Keuvo wrote:
STush T wrote:
The only way CCP/Fozzie pays attention to anything we say is to have a united front. Otherwise were just noise(ex. threadnoughts that accomplish nothing). Id like to see csm organize the complaints, then bring them to Fozzie and demand attention and accountability. This applies to all "feedback" since most of it is just ignored and we all are just wasting our time.

So with that in mind I wont be wasting my time here voicing my concerns, things like

-Once i had a maxed skilled sentry user, come summer i have to train more just to get back what i had. . . heres an idea for endgame mechanic, offer us a ship that would take 1 year to train into, 13 months later make the skill time 2 years and so on. This way there is always something to be training for. Fun right? And after you get bored of making us retrain, just change the role of the ship.
-The dominix (and other ships) were updated, now mods for that ship are changing, shouldnt it be updated again?
-know nothing about caps, but sounds like people have good reason to be pissed.
-There are more things terrible with drones then there are good, but this is what you choose to work on? Not the god awful ui?
-Advice to new players, train towards things that have just been updated, that way they might still be the same thing when you actually train into it.

So things like that arent worth the time to be mentioned.

Drones, pssht, who cares, how about CCP actively work on things to make EVE as a universe better. Dinsdale cloud/nebula, deep space, wormholes that are actually a mystery. Content, i believe its called. Although I feel for the guys stuck in SOV, maybe split CCP down the middle, half to new content, the other to actually make old content its prime.

. . .tangent just a bit. 40+ pages in i think its okay to though.




Here is the thing, the drone UI is legacy code. When you are dealing with legacy code that you don't understand there are easy changes (database value changes, variable/formula changes) which when accompanied by a long dev blog can look like a lot of work was done, and there are hard changes like learning/understanding the legacy code well enough to rewrite/improve it. Yes it makes no sense to make changes like these and leave the horrible UI/mechanics in place but you are talking about a few hours work vs. a few months work.

There is a reason why the last several expansions have been a lot of database/variable/formula changes and not much in the way of fixes to the core problems of some of the UI/mechanics in eve.


exactly, and this is not good at all when a company enters "minimal" mode on a game......

so what's the plan here? **** of as much as the player base as you can, so they leave, and in a year or two make a devblog stating "Sorry, not enought player anymore, we close the servers?"

this is what i'm feeling since +- 1 year judjing by the crap CCP pass to us as "expansions" and the falling number of players.....
Coyote Laughing
#806 - 2014-04-07 13:17:49 UTC
[quote=CCP Fozzie]Looking forward to all your feedback. CCP Rise and I have been working hard on these changes and we think they'll be great for the drone ecosystem as a whole.

I've thought about this for a couple of days and a few minor tweaks to range and tracking aren't really going to make me retrain for Amarr and Caldari drones.

Given how easily drones die, I'd give also them an armour and shield buff respectively.

That gives you a choice of fast Minmatar drones, hard hitting Gallente drones, or durable drones (of your respective tanks).

Also, do something about the training for sentry drones - if you got to the effort for training the T1, you might as well train for the T2 and get them all.

A few percentage points from racial drone specialization (if applicable) isn't really going to change my selection, especially for
Sentry drones now that bouncers don't have their broken ranges any more.

[Just as a niggling detail - how about adding the racial names to the inbuilt spelling dictionary for the forums, suggesting the correct spellings for common errors.]

l8r \o/

Alistair Cononach
The Legion of Spoon
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#807 - 2014-04-07 13:44:16 UTC
Suggestion for a more proper balance for racial Drones:

1. Matari Drones - Same as now, fastest, good tracking, for anti-tackle/frigate work. Reduce HP, should be fragile as hell.

2. Amarr Drones - Slightly slower than Matari, slightly less damage, great tracking tho, and vastly more (armor) hp. Durable as hell.

3. Caldari Drones - Much faster than Gallente Drones (close to Amarr), slightly less DPS than Gall, but far more (Shield) hp. Again, durable.

4. Gallente Drones - Same as now, top DPS drones, generally good for any slower-than-frigates ships. But low armor and shield hp, with hull tops (but still fragile).

This would provide a meaningful trade-off.

Amarr may do a little less dps vs. speedy things, but will remain on the field far longer if targeted.

Caldari may do less dps vs. heavier things, but get there far faster (earlier dps application) and stay on the field vs. those heay things far longer if targeted.

Just a thought.
DarthMopp
I.D.I.O.T.
Sev3rance
#808 - 2014-04-07 17:57:33 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:

way to describe what you don't like and instead spend 75% of your post denigrating the person who made it instead of the changes

you are truly a treasure to the posting community


Hey, stop it, i am married...noones calling me treasure except for my wife, honey.

Of course i am attacking him. He is the one responsible for this pile of crap which he is trying to sell us like the best invention since the self inflating rubber doll. Hes the one in charge, the guy with the hat on, El Cappo Primeiro! How could we forget the awesome changes and additions he gave us, like the nullified interceptor. Wohoo, that was truly a magic moment in the history of EvE. The "run back to gate" option was obviously way to difficult for some pilots so he had the close to brilliant idea to lighten the mechanic up that much my Labrador is able to fly interceptors through every gatecamp now. Know what, nullify everything cause being cought in bubbles may hurt the fragile players psyche and we cannot let this happen, aye?

I could adress the changes themselves, cause i bet the guy is a really nice dude in real life and he is just doing the best he can. Know what? I couldnĀ“t care less. He is the one that messes up the game, so i am attacking him for making EvE miserable. I would love to see him go. Not my decision though. And no, you cannot have my stuff, i will adapt to the changes and therefor i can adress any drawbacks in the game or the people responsible for it as much as i like.

**** me, we are all indirectly, paying his salary, so why not telling him when his work is shi...suboptimal?

Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#809 - 2014-04-07 18:21:58 UTC
DarthMopp wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:

way to describe what you don't like and instead spend 75% of your post denigrating the person who made it instead of the changes

you are truly a treasure to the posting community


Hey, stop it, i am married...noones calling me treasure except for my wife, honey.

Of course i am attacking him. He is the one responsible for this pile of crap which he is trying to sell us like the best invention since the self inflating rubber doll. Hes the one in charge, the guy with the hat on, El Cappo Primeiro! How could we forget the awesome changes and additions he gave us, like the nullified interceptor. Wohoo, that was truly a magic moment in the history of EvE. The "run back to gate" option was obviously way to difficult for some pilots so he had the close to brilliant idea to lighten the mechanic up that much my Labrador is able to fly interceptors through every gatecamp now. Know what, nullify everything cause being cought in bubbles may hurt the fragile players psyche and we cannot let this happen, aye?

I could adress the changes themselves, cause i bet the guy is a really nice dude in real life and he is just doing the best he can. Know what? I couldnĀ“t care less. He is the one that messes up the game, so i am attacking him for making EvE miserable. I would love to see him go. Not my decision though. And no, you cannot have my stuff, i will adapt to the changes and therefor i can adress any drawbacks in the game or the people responsible for it as much as i like.

**** me, we are all indirectly, paying his salary, so why not telling him when his work is shi...suboptimal?


what does this accomplish exactly

"oh man random proviblock poster #2398 thinks i'm an awful person, better revert the changes"
DarthMopp
I.D.I.O.T.
Sev3rance
#810 - 2014-04-07 18:28:45 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:


what does this accomplish exactly

"oh man random proviblock poster #2398 thinks i'm an awful person, better revert the changes"


At least venting accomplishes that my blood pressure stays at an healthy level :)

and i am not random! I am very special snowflake ffs!
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#811 - 2014-04-08 00:11:15 UTC
ergherhdfgh wrote:
You opened this blog by stating which drones are used most in PvP and used that as some type of justification for balance or lack there of. In Eve we have no damage meters or anything like that which I think is a good thing. But because of that we players have no way of knowing what drones do what in specific situations so I think most players just look and the easily quantifiable stats like damage and range and equate that to some theoretical dps which is not based in fact.

For example I have noticed that while Gallente drones may do the most damage on paper due to tracking and maybe speed they seem to miss a lot more than other drone types. I strongly suggest that you guys find a way to determine actual landed dps in real game situations and use that as a balancing factor instead of player's perceptions.

After all you guys are the devs you have access to information we players do not and any balancing should be done based on factual information that can be gained from server data logging versus what the largely ignorant player base thinks or feels.

The AI changes you guys made to empire NPCs a while back was a significant nerf to drone dps due to the constant need to continually recall drones. Because of that fact I don't think the MWD changes to large drones will even come close to making them viable versus sentries in most situations.


These guys give no crap at all about PvE. The AI nerf was a drone-killer, period. It was designed to hammer PvE income, especially high sec income, and it succeeded. Once people adapted as best they could with sentries, especially Gardes, it was decided to wreck them too in the PVE setting.

No one still will be using heavies or mediums in missions after these changes, because the AI will still chew them up in seconds. However, in PvP, the heavy drone speed buff is a big deal.

Remember where this dev and kil2 come from. They NEVER had to grind ISK, and so never even consider what havoc they wreak on people that grind for their ISK. That is , of course, they feel like nerfing that income, then they are just chock full of ideas.

Read the CSM minutes. If you think this is bad, just wait until they "improve the PvE experience" further by making missions much harder.
Hiryu Jin
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#812 - 2014-04-08 04:00:49 UTC
bah, I loved the shmoo's web strength bonus. :(
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#813 - 2014-04-08 04:25:30 UTC
So after a quick read of the blog, I see;
Quote:
we will be increasing the base damage multiplier of Tech One sentries and limiting the Tech Two advantage to the 2% per level gained from the racial Drone Specialization skills that will now be required to use T2 sentries.
An additional 80 days of training (4 races from 4 to 5) to get the same DPS from Sentries as now.

Quote:
we are expanding all universal drone bonuses from skills and modules to Fighters and Fighter Bombers.
Racial Drone Bonuses will affect Fighters and Fighter Bombers?
If so then;
Quote:
Fighters will find that with Drone Interfacing trained to five their basic damage returns to normal and all the other skills and bonuses from Drone Damage Amplifiers are pure additions.
Is not entirely correct. Or will the specialization skills add 2% per level above current damage?
Does this also mean the requirement of Drone Interfacing 5 is to be lowered for Fighters?

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#814 - 2014-04-08 04:46:45 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
ergherhdfgh wrote:
You opened this blog by stating which drones are used most in PvP and used that as some type of justification for balance or lack there of. In Eve we have no damage meters or anything like that which I think is a good thing. But because of that we players have no way of knowing what drones do what in specific situations so I think most players just look and the easily quantifiable stats like damage and range and equate that to some theoretical dps which is not based in fact.

For example I have noticed that while Gallente drones may do the most damage on paper due to tracking and maybe speed they seem to miss a lot more than other drone types. I strongly suggest that you guys find a way to determine actual landed dps in real game situations and use that as a balancing factor instead of player's perceptions.

After all you guys are the devs you have access to information we players do not and any balancing should be done based on factual information that can be gained from server data logging versus what the largely ignorant player base thinks or feels.

The AI changes you guys made to empire NPCs a while back was a significant nerf to drone dps due to the constant need to continually recall drones. Because of that fact I don't think the MWD changes to large drones will even come close to making them viable versus sentries in most situations.


These guys give no crap at all about PvE. The AI nerf was a drone-killer, period. It was designed to hammer PvE income, especially high sec income, and it succeeded. Once people adapted as best they could with sentries, especially Gardes, it was decided to wreck them too in the PVE setting.

No one still will be using heavies or mediums in missions after these changes, because the AI will still chew them up in seconds. However, in PvP, the heavy drone speed buff is a big deal.

Remember where this dev and kil2 come from. They NEVER had to grind ISK, and so never even consider what havoc they wreak on people that grind for their ISK. That is , of course, they feel like nerfing that income, then they are just chock full of ideas.

Read the CSM minutes. If you think this is bad, just wait until they "improve the PvE experience" further by making missions much harder.


God forbid you have to think a bit when running missions...
Cardano Firesnake
Fire Bullet Inc
#815 - 2014-04-08 09:11:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Cardano Firesnake
Don't you think that the drone navigation computer could upgrade the drones orbit speed also?
Perharps with a script to change between drone warp speed and orbit warp speed.....

Posted - 2010.07.01 11:24:00 - [4] Erase learning skills, remap all SP. That's all.

Domwav II
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#816 - 2014-04-08 10:17:19 UTC
What ever way you package or spin this it is obvious it is yet another nail in 0.0 activity, strange when you consider that all indications for the past four years have been that CCP wanted to increase Null sec activity yet as we have seen to date all actual changes have resulted in just the opposite effect with successive nerfs to all areas of income required for successful occupation in the very area CCP was promoting, the list is endless from mining through plexing and ratting onto tower reactions and even trying to force people to line up and get shot by nerfing jump bridges, We saw how well that one flew.... NOT!.

Now they have turned there attention to Drones, which from all indications so far published the only way to make this one work for you is either no EHP or no DPS for players skilled in Drone dependent ships used exclusively for PvE.

Add to this list that infernal internal strife promoter, (And thats not PvP by the way), The ESS and you almost have the complete package, vast areas of 0.0 space devoid of any players at all doing anything but occasional movements to service Moon mining towers, again odd that CCP would indicate there intentions to possibly increase system space available to players when such large areas are currently unused.

If someone in CCP would like to step up and explain to the players how this promotes greater content and interactive play in Null Sec or even enter into meaningful discussions on there train of thought in this area it would be appreciated, until then maybe you should hold off on your new ideas and concentrate more on what actually attracts players to the game in the first place because quite frankly this type of garbage shifting your currently engaged in is not quite doing it for us.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#817 - 2014-04-08 10:59:25 UTC
Reset Razor.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#818 - 2014-04-08 11:00:32 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Reset Razor.

the forums double posted, guess it agrees.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
Pandemic Horde
#819 - 2014-04-08 13:09:14 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
ergherhdfgh wrote:
You opened this blog by stating which drones are used most in PvP and used that as some type of justification for balance or lack there of. In Eve we have no damage meters or anything like that which I think is a good thing. But because of that we players have no way of knowing what drones do what in specific situations so I think most players just look and the easily quantifiable stats like damage and range and equate that to some theoretical dps which is not based in fact.

For example I have noticed that while Gallente drones may do the most damage on paper due to tracking and maybe speed they seem to miss a lot more than other drone types. I strongly suggest that you guys find a way to determine actual landed dps in real game situations and use that as a balancing factor instead of player's perceptions.

After all you guys are the devs you have access to information we players do not and any balancing should be done based on factual information that can be gained from server data logging versus what the largely ignorant player base thinks or feels.

The AI changes you guys made to empire NPCs a while back was a significant nerf to drone dps due to the constant need to continually recall drones. Because of that fact I don't think the MWD changes to large drones will even come close to making them viable versus sentries in most situations.


These guys give no crap at all about PvE. The AI nerf was a drone-killer, period. It was designed to hammer PvE income, especially high sec income, and it succeeded. Once people adapted as best they could with sentries, especially Gardes, it was decided to wreck them too in the PVE setting.

No one still will be using heavies or mediums in missions after these changes, because the AI will still chew them up in seconds. However, in PvP, the heavy drone speed buff is a big deal.

Remember where this dev and kil2 come from. They NEVER had to grind ISK, and so never even consider what havoc they wreak on people that grind for their ISK. That is , of course, they feel like nerfing that income, then they are just chock full of ideas.

Read the CSM minutes. If you think this is bad, just wait until they "improve the PvE experience" further by making missions much harder.


God forbid you have to think a bit when running missions...


Exactly. That guys problem is that he's so mentally inflexible that he hates to adapt to change (you can see it in every post, but the Omnilinks threads was the best example), thus viewing all change as bad and worse yet, a conspiracy.

Meanwhile, those of us who can adapt are doing just fine, like me and my cap stable afk heavy drone Domi. Ogre IIs supported by navcomsp, a damp (lock on to a structure and damp it, NPCs treat it as an attack on them) + a small armor rep repping a can I jettison. The combination of repping and using ECM makes the NPCs just HATE you and for the most part it keeps aggro off my ogres. It's almost as easy to afk now than it was before the AI change.

These new drone changes will make AFKing even easier. Well, easier for anyone who puts a little thought into the process. Harder for people stuck in 2005.
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#820 - 2014-04-08 14:55:15 UTC
seth Hendar wrote:
exactly, and this is not good at all when a company enters "minimal" mode on a game......

so what's the plan here? **** of as much as the player base as you can, so they leave, and in a year or two make a devblog stating "Sorry, not enought player anymore, we close the servers?"

this is what i'm feeling since +- 1 year judjing by the crap CCP pass to us as "expansions" and the falling number of players.....


They have the biggest team they've ever assigned to the problem working on the back end code. They have a team gearing up to either externally source or otherwise develop some robust content creation tools for a full PVE overhaul. When will the work be done? Who knows? Not you, not me, not CCP. It's done when it's done.

What would happen if CCP just announced that they were going heads down, dropping everything to retire their technical debt? RAEG, that's what would happen. So they have people doing work on the cleaner, easier, more public-facing parts of the code so the game can continue to improve while the gnomes in the back tackle the unglamorous and indeterminate work of fixing the foundation.

If you were in CCP's situation, what would you do differently?

On topic: I'm extremely curious about the language used concerning the Amarr and Caldari drones. If there are in fact changes coming that would allow them to shine as best in class at a yet-to-be-revealed capability, then I will hold my objection that there's still not much of a reason to use them.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!