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Dev Blog: Giving Drones an Assist

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Author
Dierdra Vaal
Interstellar Stargate Syndicate
#481 - 2014-04-02 16:56:43 UTC
My only concern is this:

The goal of the (regular) drone changes is to make Amarr and Caldari drones a better alternative, as currently only Gallente drones (when you want max damage) or Minmatar drones (when you want speed/tracking) are used. However, Gallente will still provide the best damage, and Minmatar still the best speed/tracking. Even if the Amarr and Caldari drones are better than they currently are, won't players still simply choose Gallente when they want to go for damage and Minmatar when they need to shoot fast things? In which realistic circumstances would a player choose the Caldari drones over Gallente ones?

I am worried that the change will not actually make the Amarr and Caldari drones more used, and that people will continue to focus on the drones that provide the best performance for a specific task, rather than a compromise.

Veto #205

Director Emeritus at EVE University

CSM1 delegate, CSM3 chairman and CSM5 vice-chairman

Evesterdam organiser and CSM Vote Match founder

Co-Author of the Galactic Party Planning Guide

GeeShizzle MacCloud
#482 - 2014-04-02 16:58:31 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
Sorry Fozzie this change sucks for anybody grinding structures, I'm 100% not 'doing it wrong', you're nerfing the supers DPS output and forcing them to tank less so putting them in more danger while increasing the weapon system risk because CCP refuses to do anything about ISBoxer since its feeding them subs, which amounts to every fight haviing 40+ bombers being ran by 6 guys (totally ok though right, i mean any kind of botting that feeds subs to our little icelandic company can't be all bad right?).

So try not to tell me I'm doing it wrong when you seem to have zero understanding of the current 0.0 meta.

Stop adjusting the things for how you think the game will be played and adjust it based on how its actually being played.

People are actually using ISboxer to death, and you are actually making the supercarriers more vulnerable to it. I guess the end result is supposed to be everybody grinding structures in bombers because you're seriously limiting the options on what people are willing to deal with as far as structure grinding goes.

Why can't you guys get that SOV sucks to deal with, you used to be players, how hard is it to just not screw with the things that allow us to limp through this terrible set of game mechanics without making it worse?


Wow grath, are you really this averse to having a subcap support fleet for supercap grinding? the HP in FB's are being doubled AND you're getting the Drone Durability Boost too, alongside an improved speed boost to FB's with Nav Computers too.

Can CCP coddle you more? how about a personal ship for you that flips sov and ihub ownership on your whim? tbh we're getting closer and closer to that.

you have literally zero areas to have issues. You moan about having to drop 2 lows in ur SC's to keep the damage levels when you're ships can still easily stay well above 30 million EHP. If you're having issues staying alive with 30m+ ehp then 2 more lows for tank is NOT going to help you.
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#483 - 2014-04-02 16:58:34 UTC
seriously though gonna be an unoriginal git here and also ask for the specific rank of racial drone skill you need for sentries

this is kinda important to know now so we can make sure our shit works post-patch
penifSMASH
ElitistOps
Snuffed Out
#484 - 2014-04-02 16:59:03 UTC
Suggestion:
Introduce a Slot 9 Drone Damage implant? Turret users have the option of an SS-90x implant. Considering that Supercarrier pilots have no useful 9th slot implant, this would actually see a lot of use!
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#485 - 2014-04-02 17:03:31 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

Because in a PvE environment, heavies can't be used because the AI implemented to enhance "the player experience" 2 years ago chews them to pieces in seconds.
So the next step, after people are forced to use sentries, is to wreck them, with the Omni demolition, and now this.

goons use heavies nearly exclusively for pve without problems

sounds like you're just bad at this game

To be fair, he's thinking about mission and — as always — incorrectly generalising those to mean all PvE.
Not that it changes anything, since back when he thought heavies were better for missions, they weren't. So the badness is pretty constant. P
penifSMASH
ElitistOps
Snuffed Out
#486 - 2014-04-02 17:10:18 UTC
GeeShizzle MacCloud wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
Sorry Fozzie this change sucks for anybody grinding structures, I'm 100% not 'doing it wrong', you're nerfing the supers DPS output and forcing them to tank less so putting them in more danger while increasing the weapon system risk because CCP refuses to do anything about ISBoxer since its feeding them subs, which amounts to every fight haviing 40+ bombers being ran by 6 guys (totally ok though right, i mean any kind of botting that feeds subs to our little icelandic company can't be all bad right?).

So try not to tell me I'm doing it wrong when you seem to have zero understanding of the current 0.0 meta.

Stop adjusting the things for how you think the game will be played and adjust it based on how its actually being played.

People are actually using ISboxer to death, and you are actually making the supercarriers more vulnerable to it. I guess the end result is supposed to be everybody grinding structures in bombers because you're seriously limiting the options on what people are willing to deal with as far as structure grinding goes.

Why can't you guys get that SOV sucks to deal with, you used to be players, how hard is it to just not screw with the things that allow us to limp through this terrible set of game mechanics without making it worse?


Wow grath, are you really this averse to having a subcap support fleet for supercap grinding? the HP in FB's are being doubled AND you're getting the Drone Durability Boost too, alongside an improved speed boost to FB's with Nav Computers too.

Can CCP coddle you more? how about a personal ship for you that flips sov and ihub ownership on your whim? tbh we're getting closer and closer to that.

you have literally zero areas to have issues. You moan about having to drop 2 lows in ur SC's to keep the damage levels when you're ships can still easily stay well above 30 million EHP. If you're having issues staying alive with 30m+ ehp then 2 more lows for tank is NOT going to help you.


Stop pulling numbers out of your ass. Nyxes with two fewer tank mods fit will have anywhere from 16-22m EHP, depending on available bonuses.

Also stopping bombers isn't as simple as having a support fleet on grid. You can't reliably hinder bombers unless you have a ton of bubbles up on your fighter bombers and a significant portion of your subcap fleet dedicated to instapopping ships like Legions or Muninns (and by virtue of stacking up on a niche ship like Muninns you weaken your fleet in other ways leaving you much more susceptible in other ways). Even then you can still successfully bomb a lot of drones if you're willing to sacrifice a few cheap stealth bombers. With that said, the fibo HP buff is good and I hope this will bring a better balance between stealth bombers and fighter bombers.
Sniper Smith
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#487 - 2014-04-02 17:10:19 UTC
Guys..

All you need to know for what levers of Racial Drone Spec for T2 Sentries is found right down with T2 Heavies. They are bringing the sentries in line with the heavies, so it'll be Drone Spec IV.

This only makes sense as both Heavies and Sentries are "Battleship" grade weapons, and will have the same requirements.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#488 - 2014-04-02 17:10:39 UTC
Barton Breau wrote:
So what you have talked yourself into:
800 dps (now) - OK
760 dps (after change+-) - OK, we need this because of the dda
930 dps (officer dda now) - OK
800-930 dps (faction dda) - SILLY, NERF
Nope. The 800 now is not ok; the 930 with oDDAs now is not ok; the 760 is not what we'll see after the change.

What I'm saying is that averages will go up as more effective and yet not hilariously rare DDAs will be available. To keep those averages from rising when what they want is for them to go down, they bring everything down a bit more than might be expected.

Quote:
You may want to explain where you see silly output
In the average 1200+ DPS that those drone boats can deliver.
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#489 - 2014-04-02 17:11:39 UTC
Sniper Smith wrote:
Guys..

All you need to know for what levers of Racial Drone Spec for T2 Sentries is found right down with T2 Heavies. They are bringing the sentries in line with the heavies, so it'll be Drone Spec IV.

This only makes sense as both Heavies and Sentries are "Battleship" grade weapons, and will have the same requirements.

this is a reasonable assumption but if it's all the same to you I'd like to hear it straight from the horse's mouth, so to speak
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#490 - 2014-04-02 17:12:32 UTC
GeeShizzle MacCloud wrote:


Wow grath, are you really this averse to having a subcap support fleet for supercap grinding? the HP in FB's are being doubled AND you're getting the Drone Durability Boost too, alongside an improved speed boost to FB's with Nav Computers too.


So it takes 2 squads of ISboxed bombers instead of one? Great, glad 2 guys can easily neuter a trillion isk without much effort, sure am glad ISboxer exists.

GeeShizzle MacCloud wrote:
Can CCP coddle you more? how about a personal ship for you that flips sov and ihub ownership on your whim? tbh we're getting closer and closer to that.


Sure, that would be infinitely better than the current sov system. Please, sit here and tell me that anything that makes the current sov system more of a grind or more effort is a good thing. Its not, it sucks, its the worst idea in game design in the history of game design, its more mind numbingly boring than mining and its a core 'feature' that players have been rage complaining about since its implementation. In fact, Fozzie used to complain right along with the rest of us in PL.

GeeShizzle MacCloud wrote:
you have literally zero areas to have issues. You moan about having to drop 2 lows in ur SC's to keep the damage levels when you're ships can still easily stay well above 30 million EHP. If you're having issues staying alive with 30m+ ehp then 2 more lows for tank is NOT going to help you.


Yea, Way to make it all about me. What about the little guy who's alliance has collectively 4 supers. I'm sure he's super excited about the idea of having to make himself more vulnerable just so he can reach his current DPS potentials on TQ. That sure is great for him, I mean my alliance can just stay full tank fit and not care really, whats a few seconds when you have 50 supers grinding a thing right, but to a lesser entity, this change is a swift kick in the nuts, here, have this craptasitc sov system, oh, and we're going to make you either take longer or tank less, both of which are likely to attract the attention of super hunters while you're working.

Sure am glad we're making it easier on the new guy to break into 0.0. Guess he should just use stealth bombers to grind sov like the rest of the game.


CCP Fozzie wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
increasing the weapon system risk


Fighter Bombers are getting double base HP, plus the effects of the Drone Durability skill. This makes them less vulnerable to bombs, not more vulnerable.


What does that matter to ISboxer?

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.

Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#491 - 2014-04-02 17:13:18 UTC
penifSMASH wrote:

Also stopping bombers isn't as simple as having a support fleet on grid. You can't reliably hinder bombers unless you have a ton of bubbles up on your fighter bombers and a significant portion of your subcap fleet dedicated to instapopping ships like Legions or Muninns (and by virtue of stacking up on a niche ship like Muninns you weaken your fleet in other ways leaving you much more susceptible in other ways). Even then you can still successfully bomb a lot of drones if you're willing to sacrifice a few cheap stealth bombers. With that said, the fibo HP buff is good and I hope this will bring a better balance between stealth bombers and fighter bombers.

so instead of having to tailor your fleet comp a bit and weigh the pros and cons of having one type of ship to the expense of others fleets should be uniformly composed of one ship type that is invulnerable to anything other than the same ship type
Ammzi
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#492 - 2014-04-02 17:14:16 UTC
At least you could be a painful little poop before with bombers against the supercap armada and the numerous hictors/dictors at the SBUs, but now you've buffed even that away. Thanks CCP Rise, taking more and more tools away from the little guys.

I will go sob in my corner quietly now.
Steph Livingston
Neko's Blanket
#493 - 2014-04-02 17:17:23 UTC
Another question:

It seems like this might be the first move to get drones to line up with the other weapon systems (ie. lvl3 small > medium, lvl3 medium > large). Do you intend to enforce that same progression for drones in the future?



Also, since I'm very concerned about one of the potential changes I'll repeat it again:

Is the skill requirement for Light/Med drones changing from Scout Drone Operation to Combat Drone operation skills?

Currently you need to train Scout Drone Operation (distance) to get the T2 drones, it sounds like that's getting changed to the new skills that combat drone operation is getting split into.
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#494 - 2014-04-02 17:17:27 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:

I mean my alliance can just stay full tank fit and not care really, whats a few seconds when you have 50 supers grinding a thing

if this is the case then why are you posting in this thread

you couldn't be concern trolling, that would never happen on eveo
CCP Fozzie
C C P
C C P Alliance
#495 - 2014-04-02 17:19:30 UTC
One more quick update before I go home. I'll do another more comprehensive pass on the thread tomorrow.

For the racial Drone Specialization skill requirements, we're going to be reducing the requirements for all T2 drones to level 1 of the skill.

That means for example Gallente Drone Spec level 1 will unlock Hobgoblin IIs, Hammerhead IIs, Ogre IIs, and Garde IIs (assuming you have the requisite T1 drone skills at level 5). This brings the drone spec skills more in line with the rest of our T2 weapon specialization skills. Training the skill beyond level 1 will still be advisable in order to get the extra damage boost, of course.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#496 - 2014-04-02 17:20:28 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
One more quick update before I go home. I'll do another more comprehensive pass on the thread tomorrow.

For the racial Drone Specialization skill requirements, we're going to be reducing the requirements for all T2 drones to level 1 of the skill.

That means for example Gallente Drone Spec level 1 will unlock Hobgoblin IIs, Hammerhead IIs, Ogre IIs, and Garde IIs (assuming you have the requisite T1 drone skills at level 5). This brings the drone spec skills more in line with the rest of our T2 weapon specialization skills. Training the skill beyond level 1 will still be advisable in order to get the extra damage boost, of course.

So, e.g., to unlock Garde IIs I'd need sentry drone op to 5 and gallente spec to 1?
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#497 - 2014-04-02 17:20:58 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:

I mean my alliance can just stay full tank fit and not care really, whats a few seconds when you have 50 supers grinding a thing

if this is the case then why are you posting in this thread



Because its a stupid change that hurts anybody who doesn't have an established supercapital force?

Because it helps to further stifle the 0.0 environment by further forcing new groups to rely on an existing umbrella?

Because any change that promotes the botting that is ISboxer is bad, and this does exactly that?

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.

Klng Star
Goobies Inc.
#498 - 2014-04-02 17:21:51 UTC
Not a fan of sentry drones needing the race skills to regain lost damage unless the multiplier wants to drop from a 5x to a 2x
Sniper Smith
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#499 - 2014-04-02 17:24:09 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
We're not going to be expanding the modifiers on drones any more than this for one expansion, as we need to make sure that we can keep track of how the changes we're making has affected behavior. All of those are options for the future, however.

Thanks for the reply.

I hope as time moves forwards you will reconsider adding some of it to the summer expansion, at least the inclusion of SOE faction mods [no real effect on anything, aside from keeping factions in line with the stuff use and sell], and sorting out the Rigs.

The Rigs issue has always bugged me. As it stands now with the Sentry rig it would be like having a Rig that ONLY affects Large Railguns, and no other Hybrids.. Just kinda off. Universal drone damage rig would be nice, but honestly given that there is already the sentry, either change the Sentry one to a Universal and call it a day, or add one's for the other sizes.. Personally I'd lean towards the more rigs, while a Universal would be sweet, making the Drone Damage rigs Specific to the drone size, would make things more.. interesting..
Besides.. Sentries have been the ones people have considered OP.. and now they still have a Damage Rig, Damage Lows, etc.. Bringing the heavies/mediums/lights in line with it now during the drone balance pass only makes sense to me.
Jatok Reknar
The Legion of Spoon
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#500 - 2014-04-02 17:24:57 UTC
[quote=Promiscuous Female
So, e.g., to unlock Garde IIs I'd need sentry drone op to 5 and gallente spec to 1?[/quote]
Yes, sounds like it. And this makes perfect sense to me.