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Dev Blog: Giving Drones an Assist

First post First post
Author
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#421 - 2014-04-02 15:25:16 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:

Yes this is a relative buff to the Wyvern, and yes that is intentional. However it's much less of a buff than you seem to think it is because the vast majority of Supercarrier use is in situations where they can refit at will, allowing clever pilots to switch between high tank and high damage fits as needed.

what about that a nyx is now strictly inferior to an aeon?

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.

Tarsas Phage
Freight Club
#422 - 2014-04-02 15:25:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Tarsas Phage
seth Hendar wrote:

htfu.

it is the same feeling than being blaped flying a 3-4B macha / vindi by a isboxer kevin boxing 10 nados, yet the only answer we have, from both CCP and plaers, is HTFU, so HTFU, why should it be different in this case? because you fly a giant carrier? you don't even loose the thing in your described scenario!


I've got a hunch here that you're no super pilot.

When there's a gaggle of supers in the process of booshing something, all their fibos are moving in synchronously, all bunched together and often over 30-50km distances to and from their target.

So when you have, say, 10 supers' worth of fibos running around bunched up (because that's just what they do), all it takes is 1 guy isbox'ing 6-7 bombers to wipe out 200 fibos. That's 90k-100k of DPS and roughly 7bn in fibos gone in a blink of an eye. When you see the bombers decloak, you can't make them move faster, you can't make them zig or zag or do something to get out of the bombs' AoE, all you are left to do is sit there and tab over to your indy alt to start scrounging up some replacements as you watch your current flight disappear into the ether.

Multiply occurrences like that by it happening 2-3 times a week during a burn+grind campaign and maybe, just maybe you might start to get a sense of how stupid that whole situation is.
Nira Meru
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#423 - 2014-04-02 15:25:26 UTC
Rikard Nomm wrote:
Nira Meru wrote:
Rikard Nomm wrote:
did i miss it completely, or has there been no mention of what Racial Drone Spec level will be required to use T2 sentries?
will it be Racial Spec IV like the heavies? That seems to make the most sense given they both use the same bandwidth therefore are the same "size" weapon system.

Some confirmation would be neat tho.


Sentries require no racial now i don't know why the would in the future, sentry drone interfacing skill is pretty high level skill to need.


quoted from dev blog, see text i put in bold:

Quote:
For quality levels, Tech Two sentry drones are currently massive upgrades over their Tech One equivalents since range, tracking and damage are all such important attributes for sentries. We will be keeping the 20% bonuses to hitpoints, tracking, optimal, and falloff that Tech Two enjoys over Tech One; but instead of the current 20% increase in damage over T1, we will be increasing the base damage multiplier of Tech One sentries and limiting the Tech Two advantage to the 2% per level gained from the racial Drone Specialization skills that will now be required to use T2 sentries.


So it's a massive F you to every sentry pilot who doesn't have heavies... no seriosuly why would i ever use sentries over heavies again?
Masao Kurata
Perkone
Caldari State
#424 - 2014-04-02 15:25:26 UTC
Mostly good stuff but I'm confused by you first stating that drones are too skill intensive a weapons system followed by an increase in the total SP required for that system by splitting the combat drone operation skill. Every time you do this you make new players less competent because of their age, this is not a good thing for the game. Unless of course you're turning it into two 1x skills, in which case good change.

Like most people I really have to agree that there's still no compelling reason to use caldari or amarr drones with the proposed changes. Maybe they could be given new classes to be best in, such as lowest signature radius, best tracking (leaving minmatar with best mwd speed) or best durability.
Erasmus Phoenix
Avalanche.
#425 - 2014-04-02 15:28:16 UTC
Fozzie, a couple of skill related questions;

- as someone else has asked, what level of the drone spec will be required for T2 sentries?

- the skill which is being split, Combat Drone Operations, is not currently the skill which gives you access to T1 and T2 light/medium drones, this is Scout Drone Operations. Does this mean it will be possible to lose access to T2 drones that you currently can use if you have Scout Drone Operations V, but not Combat Drone Operations V? As far as I can tell, this would lead to you getting the new prerequisites for the light/medium drones at a lower level, meaning you couldn't use the T2 drones any more.
This should perhaps be made clearer, as it is not immediately obvious going by your usual logic of "if you can fly it before, you can fly it after."
Janes Shield
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#426 - 2014-04-02 15:29:39 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Obil Que wrote:

Can you address the question of access to racial T2 sentries for those with Sentry Drone Interfacing trained to V. As it stands, those with that skill will lose access to existing weapons when the requirement for racial skills is implemented. Will those pilots receive the minimum level of racial skill to compensate?

Players will not be given racial drone spec skills. We're announcing this change early so that players have plenty of time to train the skills before the patch.


Well, you could at least tell what is the racial drone skill level requirement for operating T2 sentries instead of being all secretive about it :(
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#427 - 2014-04-02 15:30:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
CCP Fozzie wrote:
  • We are hearing the feedback from those of you who argue that this change doesn't go far enough to make the Caldari and Amarr drones competitive. It is too soon to announce anything else yet but we're taking this feedback to heart.

Wild guess: most ships have substantial kinetic resist. EM is useless on armor, and all shield tanks harden for that.

Thermal and explosive will remain dominant.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#428 - 2014-04-02 15:31:02 UTC
As an aside, I'd still like to have a drone option where the drones simply orbited your own ship, as a destructible but hard to hit weapons system.

Actually, it kind of sounds like a good fit for heavy drones, and travel time has always been the main drawback to them. Obviously it would mean they would need their effective ranges reworked.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

seth Hendar
I love you miners
#429 - 2014-04-02 15:33:29 UTC
Drak Fel wrote:


I'm not saying it should be impossible, but requiring more than one wave of bombs to do it seems reasonable.

it is just a matter of wave size, just put 2*more bomber.

in fact, since the HP will be buffed, and the volume doubled, you will have twice less bomber, for same DPS, with twice more HP, so it will require twice the number of bomb to destroy them

now, each bomb damage the next if too close, actually limiting the number of bombs / wave

if said limit is let's say 12 bombs / wave, and now it is required 10 to kill FB, after update it'll require 20....but 20 in one wave is not possible, require then 2 waves, wich is harder to sync, and give more time to recall FB.

from this POV, FB are now more likely to actually survive a bombing run (indeed depends max number of concurrent bombs, but at least, they won't be MORE vulnerable than actually)
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#430 - 2014-04-02 15:33:56 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
As an aside, I'd still like to have a drone option where the drones simply orbited your own ship, as a destructible but hard to hit weapons system.

Actually, it kind of sounds like a good fit for heavy drones, and travel time has always been the main drawback to them. Obviously it would mean they would need their effective ranges reworked.


even better fit for sentry drones
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#431 - 2014-04-02 15:39:01 UTC
Tarsas Phage wrote:
seth Hendar wrote:

htfu.

it is the same feeling than being blaped flying a 3-4B macha / vindi by a isboxer kevin boxing 10 nados, yet the only answer we have, from both CCP and plaers, is HTFU, so HTFU, why should it be different in this case? because you fly a giant carrier? you don't even loose the thing in your described scenario!


I've got a hunch here that you're no super pilot.

When there's a gaggle of supers in the process of booshing something, all their fibos are moving in synchronously, all bunched together and often over 30-50km distances to and from their target.

So when you have, say, 10 supers' worth of fibos running around bunched up (because that's just what they do), all it takes is 1 guy isbox'ing 6-7 bombers to wipe out 200 fibos. That's 90k-100k of DPS and roughly 7bn in fibos gone in a blink of an eye. When you see the bombers decloak, you can't make them move faster, you can't make them zig or zag or do something to get out of the bombs' AoE, all you are left to do is sit there and tab over to your indy alt to start scrounging up some replacements as you watch your current flight disappear into the ether.

Multiply occurrences like that by it happening 2-3 times a week during a burn+grind campaign and maybe, just maybe you might start to get a sense of how stupid that whole situation is.



again, how is this different?

if it is too expansive for you to loose several flight of fibos a week, then just stop flying your super, that's all......

i like how every super pilote bash ppl in very similar situations telling them to "fly only what you can afford", "htfu" and stuff, while they, in fact, whine exactly the same.

you are no special snowflake because you fly a 20B ship you know, same rule for everyone, deal with it

ps: nyx pilot here, just sayin, so i see exactly what you mean
tsiliadora
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#432 - 2014-04-02 15:41:09 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:

However it's much less of a buff than you seem to think it is because the vast majority of Supercarrier use is in situations where they can refit at will, allowing clever pilots to switch between high tank and high damage fits as needed.


ok now explain me how this is gonna work in heavy tidi or heavy bumb ???
and ok i accept that is a buff to wyvern, but why at the same time you make so heavy nerf to nyx???

after that it gonna be worst even that hel !!! (in statistics)

and dont make me talk sbout what is gonna happen to the prices of that ship ( imagine 300-400 ppl try to sell their nyx and buy an aeon /wyvern )

the only way to keep them in balance with these changes is also to change the bonus (from 5% to 10%)

and you have all the sc's in a line ( tank-dps) .


Ammzi
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#433 - 2014-04-02 15:42:54 UTC
penifSMASH wrote:
Ammzi wrote:
Drak Fel wrote:


It should take multiple waves. Do you know how frustrating it is to save up 30 billion isk for what is supposed to be one of the most powerful ships in the game just to have some guy with isboxer, or a handful of guys, come along in several 25 million isk ships, drop a few bombs and leave you with no way to apply any DPS whatsoever?


I might have 99 problems in EVE, but earning isk is not one of them. I'm sorry you feel that way. Here, let's have Rise solve that problem for you.

PS: Isn't that the same arguments freighters use? "It's not fair I spend over 1b on this ship, how come a handful of 10m isk ships can kill me?"


God forbid stealth bombers have to be a little coordinated after the patch in order to completely neuter a trillion isk fleet


Implying you could do the same with little to no effort.
God forbid supers have to be a little coordinated to avoid losing their fighter bombers.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#434 - 2014-04-02 15:44:44 UTC
Nira Meru wrote:
Rikard Nomm wrote:
Nira Meru wrote:
Rikard Nomm wrote:
did i miss it completely, or has there been no mention of what Racial Drone Spec level will be required to use T2 sentries?
will it be Racial Spec IV like the heavies? That seems to make the most sense given they both use the same bandwidth therefore are the same "size" weapon system.

Some confirmation would be neat tho.


Sentries require no racial now i don't know why the would in the future, sentry drone interfacing skill is pretty high level skill to need.


quoted from dev blog, see text i put in bold:

Quote:
For quality levels, Tech Two sentry drones are currently massive upgrades over their Tech One equivalents since range, tracking and damage are all such important attributes for sentries. We will be keeping the 20% bonuses to hitpoints, tracking, optimal, and falloff that Tech Two enjoys over Tech One; but instead of the current 20% increase in damage over T1, we will be increasing the base damage multiplier of Tech One sentries and limiting the Tech Two advantage to the 2% per level gained from the racial Drone Specialization skills that will now be required to use T2 sentries.


So it's a massive F you to every sentry pilot who doesn't have heavies... no seriosuly why would i ever use sentries over heavies again?


Because in a PvE environment, heavies can't be used because the AI implemented to enhance "the player experience" 2 years ago chews them to pieces in seconds.
So the next step, after people are forced to use sentries, is to wreck them, with the Omni demolition, and now this.
Drak Fel
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#435 - 2014-04-02 15:47:23 UTC
Ammzi wrote:
penifSMASH wrote:
Ammzi wrote:
Drak Fel wrote:


It should take multiple waves. Do you know how frustrating it is to save up 30 billion isk for what is supposed to be one of the most powerful ships in the game just to have some guy with isboxer, or a handful of guys, come along in several 25 million isk ships, drop a few bombs and leave you with no way to apply any DPS whatsoever?


I might have 99 problems in EVE, but earning isk is not one of them. I'm sorry you feel that way. Here, let's have Rise solve that problem for you.

PS: Isn't that the same arguments freighters use? "It's not fair I spend over 1b on this ship, how come a handful of 10m isk ships can kill me?"


God forbid stealth bombers have to be a little coordinated after the patch in order to completely neuter a trillion isk fleet


Implying you could do the same with little to no effort.
God forbid supers have to be a little coordinated to avoid losing their fighter bombers.


If they die to one wave of bombs (like they do now), there's literally nothing you can do. Making it take two waves means you have a chance to keep them alive if you actively try to save them.
GeeShizzle MacCloud
#436 - 2014-04-02 15:48:20 UTC
Drak Fel wrote:
seth Hendar wrote:
Drak Fel wrote:
Ammzi wrote:
Drak Fel wrote:


Seriously? You're mad because it will take one guy running several cheap bombers with isboxer more than one bombing run to make a 30 billion plus isk ship defenseless?


Implying it's easy to bomb fighterbombers in that short timeframe they MWD considering just 10 seconds is spent on bomb travel. And more than one run won't cut it, because they'll just be repped up now. There's only 10 fighter bombers, so you only have to top up those 10's armor in the 2 min. for the bomb launch timer cycle.

You don't need two runs, you need two waves and that just makes things 10 times as difficult and even if it succeeds only those fighter bombers in the overlap will die and that overlap is much smaller than the current 30 km radius.
And if they don't MWD it'll take 4 overlapping waves which is basically battleship durability.

(generic comment about not being mad, but wondering if Rise considered this, because it doesn't scale properly with bombs.)



It should take multiple waves. Do you know how frustrating it is to save up 30-35 billion isk for what is supposed to be one of the most powerful ships in the game just to have some guy with isboxer, or a handful of guys, come along in several 25 million isk ships, drop a few bombs and leave you with no way to apply any DPS whatsoever?

htfu.

it is the same feeling than being blaped flying a 3-4B macha / vindi by a isboxer kevin boxing 10 nados, yet the only answer we have, from both CCP and plaers, is HTFU, so HTFU, why should it be different in this case? because you fly a giant carrier? you don't even loose the thing in your described scenario!


I'm not saying it should be impossible, but requiring more than one wave of bombs to do it seems reasonable.


well dont pull in your FB's everytime you see bombs in the air. FB's are more durable taking the damage with their mwd's off then after the wave to pull them in to rep with your cap armor reppers etc...

currently it takes between 14 and 17 bombs to kill a FB dependent on skills. with the HP increase it puts that at 28-34 bombs, which to even an experienced bomber FC is a much harder task to do especially in a time constraint. its also much rarer to see a bomber fleet with more than 3 squads, meaning to kill FB's after the HP buff means it'll take upwards of 2+ minutes to do.

A Supercarrier pilot will have to literally be afk to loose FB's before pulling them in and/or repping them back to full health.
stoicfaux
#437 - 2014-04-02 15:48:35 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
  • We are hearing the feedback from those of you who argue that this change doesn't go far enough to make the Caldari and Amarr drones competitive. It is too soon to announce anything else yet but we're taking this feedback to heart.
  • [/list]

    What about letting the guinea pigs (players) figure it out by providing them with multiple versions of each racial drone? For example, provide artillery and autocannon versions of Minmatar drones, which would let players figure out whether longer ranged, lower tracking, high alpha drones are more useful than short-ranged, high tracking, fast cycling drones.

    I'm pretty sure that Wardens/Wasps that come in railgun and blaster variants would be interesting.


    Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

    DrunkenOne
    Original Sinners
    Pandemic Legion
    #438 - 2014-04-02 15:49:34 UTC
    Most of what I see seems reasonable but I have to ask for some love for Revenants. At this point the ship is at best the worst super carrier. The advantage of only have to use 10 fb's will be gone. The ship is the most expensive ship in game at this point and is nothing more than a rich mans toy with no reason to put it on the field.



    D1
    Tippia
    Sunshine and Lollipops
    #439 - 2014-04-02 15:51:41 UTC
    Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
    Because in a PvE environment, heavies can't be used because the AI implemented to enhance "the player experience" 2 years ago chews them to pieces in seconds.
    …except that the AI implementation had nothing to do with that (and it didn't happen two years ago either). Sentries were always the better choice for PvE due to their higher damage and far better damage projection.

    Nira Meru wrote:
    So it's a massive F you to every sentry pilot who doesn't have heavies... no seriosuly why would i ever use sentries over heavies again?
    For much the same reasons as before: damage projection and ease of use. They will no longer also have higher damage, but that is a good thing.
    Drak Fel
    School of Applied Knowledge
    Caldari State
    #440 - 2014-04-02 15:52:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Drak Fel
    GeeShizzle MacCloud wrote:

    well dont pull in your FB's everytime you see bombs in the air. FB's are more durable taking the damage with their mwd's off then after the wave to pull them in to rep with your cap armor reppers etc...

    currently it takes between 14 and 17 bombs to kill a FB dependent on skills. with the HP increase it puts that at 28-34 bombs, which to even an experienced bomber FC is a much harder task to do especially in a time constraint. its also much rarer to see a bomber fleet with more than 3 squads, meaning to kill FB's after the HP buff means it'll take upwards of 2+ minutes to do.

    A Supercarrier pilot will have to literally be afk to loose FB's before pulling them in and/or repping them back to full health.


    Halfway descent bomber pilots wait until the structure is reinforced/dead and supers start to pull bombers in to bomb (actually if it died they return whether or not you told them to) and it currently does not take that many bombs to kill them I assure you.

    Also, who doesn't AFK while grinding in their super? Do you know how boring that **** is? lol