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Dev Blog: Giving Drones an Assist

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Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#141 - 2014-04-01 19:34:33 UTC
So looking at the Vexor, now needs Medium hybrid Turrets, Light Drone Operation, Medium Drone Operation, and Heavy Drone Operation to use efficiently.

The most skill intensive T1 cruiser in the game now.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Dramaticus
State War Academy
Caldari State
#142 - 2014-04-01 19:35:09 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Anhenka wrote:
Dev Blog was really quite hazy about the some of the important bit of the Sentry Drone alterations.


With the base increase of T1 Sentries, and the 2% increase per level, will a char with say Racial Drone spec IV and all the other drone skills maxed deal equal or less damage with a set of T2 Sentries (Say Gardes) than they did previously with the same skills?[


You spelled the damage changes out quite clearly for everything else, but left the effects on T2 sentries quite hazy.


This was mainly because the spelling out the details a bit more long winded for sentries since they're not changing by uniform percentages. I decided to pass along the basics and let the spreadsheet at the end provide the specifics.

In practice, damage with T2 Gardes and Bouncers will be going down a bit (but with Bouncers gaining a lot of tracking and Gardes gaining a fair amount of falloff) while damage with T2 Curators and Wardens goes up a bit.


So let me get this straight.
You trash the AI a couple years ago, because you hated anyone who used heavies in missions.
Then you trashed the Omnidirectional, because we "adapted:" (read as do less effective damage than heavies), and started using Sentries.

But , no, that is not enough. Every single person who kills themselves to get the skills to get T2 sentries just got screwed even further since Garde II's just took another huge hit in damage. Because Garde's were used on 3 of the 4 NPC's.

Man, you just can't help yourself, wrecking the PvE game, can you?
My Stratios in low sec Amarr space, or low sec Gallente space just got creamed even more after the Omni wipeout.

BTW , I retired my Proteus mission runner when you wiped out Omni's.
Now, I can retire any of the other PvE drone boats I have.


I would reprocess that stuff sooner than later.

The 'do-nothing' member of the GoonSwarm Economic Warfare Cabal

The edge is REALLY hard to see at times but it DOES exist and in this case we were looking at a situation where a new feature created for all of our customers was being virtually curbstomped by five of them
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#143 - 2014-04-01 19:35:14 UTC
Marcel Devereux wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Looking forward to all your feedback. CCP Rise and I have been working hard on these changes and we think they'll be great for the drone ecosystem as a whole.


If this is a troll I will pod you!

Quote:
We are also splitting the current Combat Drone Operation skill into two new skills, Light Drone Operation and Medium Drone Operation. This means that all light combat drones will now be unlocked and bonused from the Light Drone Operation skill, and medium combat drones will be unlocked and bonused from the Medium Drone Operation skill. During the patch downtime, existing players with the Combat Drone Operation skill trained will receive both new skills trained to the same level that their Combat Drone Operation skill was trained to.


Be aware of the side effect this is going to have on new players wanting to fly the Algos. To reach its full potential you will need to train both light and medium drones. This previously was done with one skill but now will require two. Same thing goes for the Vexor. In both cases you will need to train for three weapon system to fully use the ship. This is not new player friendly.

Are you going to change the bandwidth/bonus on these ships?



Do you seriously think that he EVER considers new players when wrecking a system in game?
Really? Just look at his track record.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#144 - 2014-04-01 19:36:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
since you're making the weapons more realistic to their races .. ... how about doing the same with their HP on armour/shields ??

too many drones are just structure and not much else .. considering structure has no resists it makes the HP a lot weaker than it should be..

also sig radius needs sorting out ... many have the sig of a cruisers despite being infinitely smaller than one

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Degalo
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#145 - 2014-04-01 19:36:51 UTC
Aerozzz wrote:
Regarding the Fighters Fighter bomber changes:

1) The Fighter Bombers are getting their damage output nerfed. Two FB currently do 6k damage, 1 FB after the changes will do 1400 (base damage) * 1.5 (drone interfacing V) * 2 (100% supercarrier bonus) = 4200, 70% down from 6k. Are my calculations correct (assuming no DDAs are fit)?

Thanks!


They are getting nerfed heavily.

Right now, a single FB does 6000 volley on a non-nyx.

3000 base x 2 for FB 5.

After patch, a single FB will need to do 12000 volley to be equal, but it won't:

1400 (base) x 2 (SC Role) x 2 (FB 5) x 1.5 (DI 5) = 8400

8400/12000 = 70% of current damage.

This is a 30% nerf if you don't cripple your tank - so while the post said they will do the same damage, it a ******* lie. You can only do the same damage by giving up tank.

**** this change.
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#146 - 2014-04-01 19:38:21 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

Do you seriously think that he EVER considers new players when wrecking a system in game?
Really? Just look at his track record.

in addition to your habit of always using the currently overpowered pve thing every single time it is also strange that you have been a new player for years

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#147 - 2014-04-01 19:38:22 UTC
Querns wrote:
Moneta Curran wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
boohoo

Must you consistently whine about everything?

It is a little strange that in every single game adjustment thread, he just happens to be performing the PvE activity that gets hit the most by the changes.

It's also strange how every thing he complains about shows that he's doing whatever he's doing in the most inefficient way (cf. the above whine about having to ditch heavies in favour of sentries, even though sentries were always better). P
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#148 - 2014-04-01 19:39:38 UTC
so if you're buffing base drone damage .. im guessing the other non drone ships will have their bandwidth reduced somewhat??

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#149 - 2014-04-01 19:40:26 UTC
Querns wrote:
Moneta Curran wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
boohoo


Must you consistently whine about everything?


It is a little strange that in every single game adjustment thread, he just happens to be performing the PvE activity that gets hit the most by the changes.


Isn't it?
I try to adapt to whatever PvE system is left over that is the most functional, at which point Fozzie then focuses on it.
Because it is part of a never-ending campaign to destroy high sec income, (and now it appears low sec income), that is a logical outcome.

BTW Fozzie, just to let you know, I figure using supercaps in low sec belt ratting is now the most optimal PvE activity outside of null sec, so you can now focus on wrecking supercarriers and titans.
PinkKnife
The Cuddlefish
Ethereal Dawn
#150 - 2014-04-01 19:40:39 UTC  |  Edited by: PinkKnife
The Warfish wrote:


The fact you keep ignoring the issue and mumbling "not that hard" shows a clear and unquestionable lack of understanding.

yes, there is still two "best in class" Drones. Gall will outdamge Caldari in every circumstance where speed is not a factor. Minny will out hit (and hence our damage) Amarr in every circumstance where speed is a factor.

Again, and be specific please, detail a circumstance where you, as a pilot, would choose Amarr over Minny and then show us (with the maths) how the Amarr Drones will out-perform Minny in that scenario.

If you can't do that, I guess it IS "that hard", because as I and most have said, best-in-class will still be best in class.



Where speed is not a factor? You mean 0 percent of engagements using drones? If your target speed is 0 why would you use light drones over medium or heavy's. In that one specific scenario, yes, Gal is the best choice.

Le sigh. Before skills/modules.
Tracking MWD Speed DPS
A:2.988 4620 1.68
C:2.448 3780 1.8
G:2.178 3360 1.92
M:3.24 5040 1.56


You're problem is that you're viewing only two possible best of scenarios rather than a spectrum. Which is false. Any event in which Minmatar drones are engaging something slower than their tracking ability, is a loss in opportunity DPS that could have been gained with Amarr drones hitting the same target. Likewise, any engagement that has hobgoblins missing the target due to speed, is lost DPS that would have been gained by using Caldari drones. So while on paper Gallente is "best in role" for DPS, if you're fighting anything faster than they can track, they aren't.

So, the logical thing to do is using something in the middle of the road unless you know specifically what, exactly, you're going to be fighting, in which case you can fit to suit your specific application. You don't need math, just plain logic and an understand that you can't pick every engagement. As I said, it isn't nearly as hard as people want to make it out to be.

Fast frigates, pick minmatar, regular pick cal/amarr, heavier, pick gal. Unsure, pick cal/amarr for a mix of speed and dps.
Aerozzz
Afragoi Ltd
#151 - 2014-04-01 19:40:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Aerozzz
Degalo wrote:
Aerozzz wrote:
Regarding the Fighters Fighter bomber changes:

1) The Fighter Bombers are getting their damage output nerfed. Two FB currently do 6k damage, 1 FB after the changes will do 1400 (base damage) * 1.5 (drone interfacing V) * 2 (100% supercarrier bonus) = 4200, 70% down from 6k. Are my calculations correct (assuming no DDAs are fit)?

Thanks!


They are getting nerfed heavily.

Right now, a single FB does 6000 volley on a non-nyx.

3000 base x 2 for FB 5.

After patch, a single FB will need to do 12000 volley to be equal, but it won't:

1400 (base) x 2 (SC Role) x 2 (FB 5) x 1.5 (DI 5) = 8400

8400/12000 = 70% of current damage.

This is a 30% nerf if you don't cripple your tank - so while the post said they will do the same damage, it a ******* lie. You can only do the same damage by giving up tank.

**** this change.


Totally agree with the calculations. I'll refrain from any comment on the actual consequences of the change. :P

Regarding the support drone skills, do Fighters / FB get a buff? (HP, speed, tracking for fighters)?
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#152 - 2014-04-01 19:43:43 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:

Do you seriously think that he EVER considers new players when wrecking a system in game?
Really? Just look at his track record.

in addition to your habit of always using the currently overpowered pve thing every single time it is also strange that you have been a new player for years


That is one of many differences between us.
Yes, I consider the NPE when looking at changes to it, because I care about the future of the game.

You and your kind only look at new players as cattle to exploit.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#153 - 2014-04-01 19:44:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
PinkKnife wrote:
So, the logical thing to do is using something in the middle of the road unless you know specifically what, exactly, you're going to be fighting, in which case you can fit to suit your specific application. You don't need math, just plain logic and an understand that you can't pick every engagement. As I said, it isn't nearly as hard as people want to make it out to be.

Fast frigates, pick minmatar, regular pick cal/amarr, heavier, pick gal. Unsure, pick cal/amarr for a mix of speed and dps.

…but the problem is that you never know what, exactly, you're going after so picking a middle-of-the-road option is never the best idea.

If you expect fast ships, you want fast drones. You don't want to gamble that your higher-damage drone will be fast enough, because if you're wrong you lose all your damage. So you pick the highest-speed drone and, at worst, you lose a little damage. The same for the other end of the spectrum: do you gamble a guaranteed loss of damage output against the potential loss of damage if they accidentally have the wrong resists (because at that end of the spectrum, speed won't be a factor no matter what).

If you're unsure, you pick the fast option because you know you will be prepared no matter what.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#154 - 2014-04-01 19:46:42 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:


BTW Fozzie, just to let you know, I figure using supercaps in low sec belt ratting is now the most optimal PvE activity outside of null sec, so you can now focus on wrecking supercarriers and titans.


Shush! Don't encourage CFC to do that even more often. They already lost one ratting Nyx in low sec. Can you imagine the tears if they lose more? Lol

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#155 - 2014-04-01 19:49:47 UTC
we also need more drones skills

- tracking
- orbit speed
- sig reduction maybe?
- falloff range

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Crazy KSK
Tsunami Cartel
#156 - 2014-04-01 19:50:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Crazy KSK
so I just ran the numbers on sentries and I am not happy
661dps @72km on an dominix with t2 curators requires a new word to be invented to describe its unbalance it needs a 4 faction mag stab vindi with a t2 ROF rig using caldari navy lead to be able to beat its dps, even that is not enough to beat an dominix using t2 wardens that do 578dps @179 I doubt anything subcap can beat that bar a isthar
oh yeah wardens do already 563dps on live o.o
(numbers all using 3xt2 DDA no range increasing modules)

so yeah sentries need to brought in line with Large long range guns of all types with their tracking taken into consideration
right now sentries track way better then large guns

yes sentry drones have all their limitations and should be somewhat better in general but this is just too much

I too see the changes to normal drones very pessimistic and don't think that caldari and amarr drones will be used more
stats that could be used for more flavor are orbit range in conjunction to optimal range allowing caldari drones to orbit out of range of their respective type of smart bomb (small drones orbit @ 4km etc)


Edit: also please take look at drone HP and hp distribution
more hp could be a trait of amarr drones

PS: and I thought I could take the buff to curators as compensation for having to probably switch from the gila to the ishtar as my plex boat, sigh

Quote CCP Fozzie: ... The days of balance and forget are over.
Ransu Asanari
Perkone
Caldari State
#157 - 2014-04-01 19:51:43 UTC
I hope Team Five-0 puts the same amount of effort in when fixing and rebalancing missiles.

Some good changes here, some that others won't be pleased about.

I think it's been said before, but there was no changes/rebalances for EWAR drones in this update. Is this something that is being held off on, until EWAR is fixed/rebalanced?

I think a lot of us are still waiting on updates and improvements to the Drone UI, Drone AI, and assist mechanics, especially considering the recent cap on drone assist to 50. Referring back to a previous post I made:

Ransu Asanari wrote:
When you assist drones to another player currently, there's no way to tell who has drones assisted to you, and how many, other than that the drones cluster around that pilot's ship. It wasn't as important, since there was no limit. However now, this raises some concerns now that we have to micromanage the assists to fit the limit, and need some tools and UI tweaks to be able to do that.

How will a "drone bunny" know who has drones assisted to them, and how many?

a. Will there be an indication in the fleet window, such as a drone icon, that will show members who have drones assisted to them? This would be helpful for quick reference, if the intention in fleet is to only have drones assisted to one person per squad.

b. Will there be an expanded group in the Drone UI for the "drone bunny" to show a summary of the number of currently Assisted Drones so they will easily know once they've reached their limit of 50?

c. Will the "drone bunny" have the ability to force unassist of drones from a player who assigned them incorrectly, or will lazy/incompetent fleet members DDOS the assist cap, requiring further micromanagement?

How will the drone owner know what is going on with their assisted drones?

a. If a fleet member attempts to assist their drones to a "drone bunny" who has already reached the 50 drone cap, will they get an error message?

b. Can the successful assist be verified by having the Drone UI show "Assisted to X" as the current Drone status, as well as showing if it is Idle, Returning, Engaging, etc? If only some of the drones are assigned, will the player be able to tell which are assigned and which aren't?


At least the confirmation of Drone Assist not working in lowsec has been confirmed as "no plans to fix", despite being brought up multiple times. Maybe we can get an answer on the rest of these?
Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#158 - 2014-04-01 19:51:54 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Marcel Devereux wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Looking forward to all your feedback. CCP Rise and I have been working hard on these changes and we think they'll be great for the drone ecosystem as a whole.


If this is a troll I will pod you!

Quote:
We are also splitting the current Combat Drone Operation skill into two new skills, Light Drone Operation and Medium Drone Operation. This means that all light combat drones will now be unlocked and bonused from the Light Drone Operation skill, and medium combat drones will be unlocked and bonused from the Medium Drone Operation skill. During the patch downtime, existing players with the Combat Drone Operation skill trained will receive both new skills trained to the same level that their Combat Drone Operation skill was trained to.


Be aware of the side effect this is going to have on new players wanting to fly the Algos. To reach its full potential you will need to train both light and medium drones. This previously was done with one skill but now will require two. Same thing goes for the Vexor. In both cases you will need to train for three weapon system to fully use the ship. This is not new player friendly.

Are you going to change the bandwidth/bonus on these ships?



Do you seriously think that he EVER considers new players when wrecking a system in game?
Really? Just look at his track record.


"The result is that drones have earned a reputation as a weapon system that is not suitable for new players."

I think right there is thought of new players. He just needs to think of the Gallente new players now ;-p
Denuo Secus
#159 - 2014-04-01 19:52:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Denuo Secus
Very cool changes \o/

A few detail questions:

(1) Are any changes to the base drone mechanic included? Such as the issue with overshooting of fast drones (MWD->stop->shoot->MWD)?
(2) Any changes to the drone UI?
(3) About capitals: will the Thanatos keep its fighter bonus after carrier rebalance and is there any chance it gets an overall drone bonus so that combat drones and sentries are included?
(4) Do you have plans to improve the weapon effect of drones? It's are barely visible at the moment.

Thanks!

EDIT: added a fourth question
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#160 - 2014-04-01 19:53:14 UTC
My thanny thanks you fozzie. Its no longer the ugly step brother of carriers. Now if only you fixed the nid I would be super happy

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.