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OUTLAW RIOT P0LICE
Doomheim
#6281 - 2014-03-27 20:56:03 UTC
DID ANYBODY NOTICE HOW MUCH THE GUY WHO GOT SCAMMED SOUNDS LIKE ERIC CARTMAN?
BeBopAReBop RhubarbPie
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#6282 - 2014-03-27 20:56:10 UTC
Ssieth wrote:
Now - there's been a lot of arguments in here to support the actions of E1 and I thought I'd adress the main ones:

1. This is a slippery slope to....
Slippery slope arguments are, well, a slippery slope. Everything is a slippery slope to everything else and you can always assert hyperbolic consequences to anything. Quite simply, slippery slope areguments are irrelvant.

True.

Ssieth wrote:

2. What was done was not a violation of the EULA
I think this is arguable either way and it's largely irrelevant. If CCP want to ban someone they can and they can stretch the EULA to fit where it's needed if they choose to do so. Comversely CCP can choose to ignore an obvious violation if they want to. Basically the ball is in their court and it's all about how they want the game to be and how they want it to be perceived.

Actually this is extremely relevant. Game companies should not be in the habit of banning players for any reason outside of explicitly stated game rules. Doing so erodes player trust in the company.
Ssieth wrote:

3. They didn't do this other stuff that would have been much worse
Er... yeah. They didn't and you can always level that argument no matter how abhorent someone's behaviour is. The fact here is that the behaviour was bad enough. Bad enough to knowingly cause someone a hell of a lot of distress outside ofthe game and bad enough to reflect very badly on EVE and its player-base.

I haven't seen this argument made except in hyperbole, but you are correct.
Ssieth wrote:
4. The vicitim had a choice not to be victimized
Yeah - this is one that gets levied at victims all the time. Often along with "they should have known better", "they shouldn't have looked like a victim", "they shouldn't have let themselves be bullied". Frankly, blaming the vicitim is something of a shameful act. It would be great if all players came into the game equipped to handle psychological abuse but that's not the case and it shouldn't be an entry requirement. Even if it were then it should certainly be made apparent.

I'm 95% in agreement with you here. My biggest issue with this argument is that the "victim" did lash out at Ero and the excrow agents involved. Honestly I need to listen to the full recording (haven't found the time), but I'm very unwilling to say that he was completely blameless in this case.
Ssieth wrote:

5. The vicitim was especially psychologically sensitive
That may well be the case but it should be born in mind that EVE is specifically open to 13 year old children to sign up to. They could be prey to such actions and if turns out that they are, or already have been, then CCP is in for a hell of a lot more trouble than has currently been stirred up here. Seriously - if you think that a few hundred posts on a forum is turbulent then you've not seen what the media will do with that.
6. Banning E1 will kill the meta
Don't be rediculous - there's a hell of a lot more meta to the game than JIta scammers.

7. Banning E1 would be changing EVE
Yes - and for the better. Realistically, ask yourself what scammers add to the game compared to the level of annoyance they generate even without this sort of event. Frankly - how many of EVE's players would be happy to see scammers gone entirely? I can't think of a single good reason to protect them and I'd be more than happy to be able to turn up to a trade hub and not get continually spammed in local.


What is far more important than any ban that may or may not occur is any statement CCP makes in conjunction with the ban. I would not be surprised to see a EULA update targeted at curbing this kind of behavior but leaving scamming as a whole intact. I'm really hoping that singing ransoms and such are not targeted, but I wouldn't be surprised to see a change in terms of whats allowed when leading someone on for a long period of time, along with guidelines as to where to stop a scam before hurting another player in ways that affect them out of game. Of course any changes are on a case-by-case evaluation under GM discretion.

Founder of Violet Squadron, a small gang NPSI community! Mail me for more information.

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Tollen Gallen
Glory of Reprisal Enterprise
#6283 - 2014-03-27 20:56:39 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
Berendas wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
And another business day passes in CCP Iceland with no acknowledgement whatsoever, other that falcon shutting down duplicate threads. Eterne spends his day tweeting about how awesome Fanfest is and commenting on how cute some animae shot also tweeted.

But zero about this scandal, in any way.
I know it will take likely take weeks to make some decision on this, but it is terrible business practice from a PR perspective not to acknowledge there is a crisis.

The thing is, this should not be a crisis, it shouldn't even register on CCP's radar. People getting scammed, and even being invited to voice comms is a regular occurrence. The only reason this is even a thing is because an influential player took it upon himself to sensationalize and exaggerate this whole matter for his own benefit. What CCP should do is lock this thread and say no more on this issue, because in reality this is just business as usual for EVE.


Really? Is that what they should do? Just lock it? Because you said so?

Or should they do what they are doing. Using it for feedback and a time killer while they formulate a response to an issue that would have come to a head sooner or later with or without Ripard as the catalyst.

They're giving us the respect of allowing us to post our feelings on this matter unmoderated. How often does that happen? If I were you I'd just back out of the thread now since you are so offended by this rare concession from CCP.

Mr Epeen Cool


+1 Sir

Zimmy Zeta - I f*cking love martinis. the original ones, with gin, not that vodka martini crap. Your old Friends can use me for 7 days, free!!!
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#6284 - 2014-03-27 20:56:46 UTC
Imryn Xaran wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:


Last time I checked with any normal person, using the victim being stupid as an excuse for abuse wasn't really kosher.

Mr Epeen Cool


Then those "normal people" lied to you, as I've explained to you previously.. Despite your politically correct view, somethings a 'victim' is at least partially at fault for the things that happen to them.


That's a very politically incorrect view you have there - one I partially agree with.

I think victims can contribute to their situation by their actions, but I don't think that in any way mitigates or "excuses" the actions of the perpetrator.

An analogy: the guy that wanders around the bad bit of town dressed in a nice suit and flashing money who subsequently gets mugged is partially responsible for what happened, but the mugger doesn't get to use that as an excuse.


Exactly.

I for sure aren't asking for any kind of mitigation though. I'm saying to keep things in context. E1 extracts tears by extreme means, but this in no way justifies death threats and racial abuse. E1 is well know, a 2009 player might have heard of him and if a player doesn't have enough sense to know that isk doubling is a BS scam, then I contend that they should not even be playing EVE to begin with.
H aVo K
Tycheon Industries
#6285 - 2014-03-27 20:56:53 UTC
Volar Kang wrote:
Personally, I hope to see Erotica not get banned and then get on the CSM. I think you will see the meta game take the final rug toward ludicrous speed when his real name is made public and one of the players who shares his mental instability goes to his house to meet him and his family.

On the other hand, CCP might want to just ban him for his own good.



Or give scam victims some way of exacting meaningful retribution on the scammers IN GAME.

... though I'm assuming that that's where "walking in station" was going >_>
Xuixien
Solar Winds Security Solutions
#6286 - 2014-03-27 20:57:03 UTC
Helena Russell Makanen wrote:
Volar Kang wrote:
Personally, I hope to see Erotica not get banned and then get on the CSM. I think you will see the meta game take the final rug toward ludicrous speed when his real name is made public and one of the players who shares his mental instability goes to his house to meet him and his family.

On the other hand, CCP might want to just ban him for his own good.




Actually erotica already quit the CSM race.... again.... claiming that of course it had nothing to do with all this, but because he 'forgot' to update his passport lol! BlinkBlinkBlink


I think having to make your real life name public might have been a factor... something about death threats and "see you at fanfest" or something.

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#6287 - 2014-03-27 20:57:08 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:
--


Then what is the point of the unwinnable game?

I dunno, why do YOU play EVE?

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Kristalll
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#6288 - 2014-03-27 20:57:20 UTC
M1k3y Koontz wrote:

Oh noes, slippery slope argument! There is a difference between a negative comment on a fansite and falsely promising someone their stuff back (which they WERE stupid to contract over in the first place) if they submit to the harassment of the harasser.


Now what you need to do is prove "harassment" and your argument will be solid.

“Die trying” is the proudest human thing.
M1k3y Koontz
House of Musashi
Stay Feral
#6289 - 2014-03-27 20:57:21 UTC
admiral root wrote:
Louis Robichaud wrote:
What is Jester gaining here exactly?


A crapton of extra pageviews for his Eve is dying blog.


Clearly you're a loyal reader, it isn't an "EVE is dying" blog.

How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
Salvos Rhoska
#6290 - 2014-03-27 20:58:46 UTC
Helena Russell Makanen wrote:
he 'forgot' to update his passport lol!


Or maybe going anywhere near an official government office that requires proof of identity would be "bad".

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#6291 - 2014-03-27 20:58:56 UTC
Just to inject some factual information:

1) CCP have taken notice of the the issue.
2) So have the CSM.
3) I personally I am very content with the direction the resultant discussion took. All my concerns were dealt with, and the CSM has a unified position.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Kristalll
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#6292 - 2014-03-27 20:59:06 UTC
Ssieth wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Kristalll wrote:
So if a manager at mcdonalds molests a child, mcdonalds is held responsible as a molester-based business?

Yes, if they knew he was molesting kids.


And also yes if they were not taking suitable measures to ensure the safety of their customers.


Now would the chicken nuggets be to blame as well?

“Die trying” is the proudest human thing.
Berendas
Ascendant Operations
#6293 - 2014-03-27 20:59:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Berendas
Mr Epeen wrote:
Really? Is that what they should do? Just lock it? Because you said so?

Or should they do what they are doing. Using it for feedback and a time killer while they formulate a response to an issue that would have come to a head sooner or later with or without Ripard as the catalyst.

They're giving us the respect of allowing us to post our feelings on this matter unmoderated. How often does that happen? If I were you I'd just back out of the thread now since you are so offended by this rare concession from CCP.

Mr Epeen Cool

You seem to be confusing a suggestion for an order. Besides, any posts that would constitute meaningful or useful feedback have long since been lost in this 300+ page leviathan of egregious metaphors and mudslinging. I'm not a particularly active poster in the thread, but as an EVE player I have a interest in what might occur as a result of all this nonsense. I'll continue to keep checking up on it as long as it remains active even if I'm against the thread staying open.

Slightly related: Several pages back someone posted a link to a 'stat' page for this thread. Would anyone kindly supply a link to that page or inform me on how to view/recreate it myself?
Xuixien
Solar Winds Security Solutions
#6294 - 2014-03-27 20:59:58 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Scipio Artelius wrote:
--


Then what is the point of the unwinnable game?

I dunno, why do YOU play EVE?


Rekt, dunkt, and servd.

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#6295 - 2014-03-27 21:00:42 UTC
Tollen Gallen wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:
Berendas wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
And another business day passes in CCP Iceland with no acknowledgement whatsoever, other that falcon shutting down duplicate threads. Eterne spends his day tweeting about how awesome Fanfest is and commenting on how cute some animae shot also tweeted.

But zero about this scandal, in any way.
I know it will take likely take weeks to make some decision on this, but it is terrible business practice from a PR perspective not to acknowledge there is a crisis.

The thing is, this should not be a crisis, it shouldn't even register on CCP's radar. People getting scammed, and even being invited to voice comms is a regular occurrence. The only reason this is even a thing is because an influential player took it upon himself to sensationalize and exaggerate this whole matter for his own benefit. What CCP should do is lock this thread and say no more on this issue, because in reality this is just business as usual for EVE.


Really? Is that what they should do? Just lock it? Because you said so?

Or should they do what they are doing. Using it for feedback and a time killer while they formulate a response to an issue that would have come to a head sooner or later with or without Ripard as the catalyst.

They're giving us the respect of allowing us to post our feelings on this matter unmoderated. How often does that happen? If I were you I'd just back out of the thread now since you are so offended by this rare concession from CCP.

Mr Epeen Cool


+1 Sir

Yeah, I have to agree with that. Get it all out of your system folks.

And yes, this was inevitably going to become a "thing", as this same scenario plays out on an almost daily basis (to one degree or another) in EVE.

There are enough recordings of people singing to save their stuff on YouTube to create a best hits album.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Kristalll
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#6296 - 2014-03-27 21:00:44 UTC
Ssieth wrote:


It's not at all the same. Recovering from a reputation hit is as easy as creating a new alt.


And getting a new ship is as easy as visiting a station.

“Die trying” is the proudest human thing.
Dave stark
#6297 - 2014-03-27 21:00:57 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Just to inject some factual information:

1) CCP have taken notice of the the issue.
2) So have the CSM.
3) I personally I am very content with the direction the resultant discussion took. All my concerns were dealt with, and the CSM has a unified position.


excellent, now everyone can get on with ignoring the whole issue like they have been for the months it has been going on.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#6298 - 2014-03-27 21:01:10 UTC
CCP's response is going to be based on whether or not their legal department believes they have exposure in a worst case scenario. A 300 page +thread bringing it to their attention doesn't bode well for no response. I predict them rephrasing the EULA to cya (cover your ass) with no intention of enforcing it. The new shitstorm thread should be fun though.
Xuixien
Solar Winds Security Solutions
#6299 - 2014-03-27 21:01:13 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Just to inject some factual information:

1) CCP have taken notice of the the issue.
2) So have the CSM.
3) I personally I am very content with the direction the resultant discussion took. All my concerns were dealt with, and the CSM has a unified position.


So nothing will be done to Erotica 1 then, except maybe a slap on the wrist and possibly some revision of the EULA.

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#6300 - 2014-03-27 21:01:23 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Just to inject some factual information:

1) CCP have taken notice of the the issue.
2) So have the CSM.
3) I personally I am very content with the direction the resultant discussion took. All my concerns were dealt with, and the CSM has a unified position.

can we get a blue tag to weigh in on the matter?

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=