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Effect One
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#5721 - 2014-03-27 17:20:45 UTC
This player could have walked away at any given moment. He chose not to. The end.

He could have said no when asked to hand over his things. He could have refused to talk to a complete stranger on TS. He could have refused to involve his spouse in the matter. He could have closed down all conversations and blocked those involved.

Eve Online is a game. The 'assets' contained within are digital and belong to CCP, not the player. The bonus room acts to abuse inherent human greed and the trust that naive players place in complete strangers in order to relieve them of the digital items attached to their accounts. It is physically impossible to 'force' (in the sense that actions transcend the game into the real world) anyone to do anything within Eve Online (just simply refuse, block or log out).

Once again we have one half of the community propping up the solid (even if they are found to be morally questionable) foundations of reason, and the other half pandering to idiots and those for which the game strays outside of the realm of the whimsical and becomes their reality. Once again we learn that Eve Online is (generally) not bound by the shackles of moraily. Not really surprising.

'This might be internet spaceships, but it's not rocket science to protect yourself and fly with a little common sense' - CCP Falcon
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#5722 - 2014-03-27 17:21:39 UTC
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:


Humiliation isn't some sort of crime that needs to be fixed. If you do't want to be humiliated, don't let people humiliate you, don't take humiliating actions.


No ****. Why do you think I feel the victims don't deserve sympathy?

Jenn aSide wrote:

It's the same as people do in real life, they try to legislate 'protections' for things that are and should be private matters.


If this was a private matter, there wouldn't be hours upon hours of recordings made public for people to hear.

Try filming yourself doing something illegal like stealing a car, posting it on youtube, then insist that people are meddling in your private business when you go to court. Tell me how it works out for you.

The minute Erotica 1 posted the recordings, it became a public matter. If that wasn't the case, this threadnaught wouldn't exist.


Nothing illegal was done here. This is more akin to Beadles about
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#5723 - 2014-03-27 17:22:19 UTC
olan2005 wrote:
Wesley Otsdarva wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
The feedback in this thread is very much appreciated, and we've been watching it since it was first posted.

While we can appreciate that tensions are high, please remember to keep within the forum rules when posting.

We'll have more information for you guys in the coming days.

Smile



Thanks Falcon. I know the threads been monitored. But I would still like a CCP reply on the issue. I think we've beat the topic into dust. All I see now is a few people who know the middle ground is a good place to be. (me included)

And then a bunch of people screaming either

"FRY CARL LEE!, FRY CARL LEE!" or "FREE CARL LEE!!, FREE CARL LEE!!"


I think ccp need to come down the middle here. It was not torture that's to extreme. It was harassment, cyber bullying by the scammer. It was racism under altered mental state by the victim


Rule clarity on use of outside game tools for scamming in game property needs to be clarified

Rule clarity on the difference between a. Scam and harassment needs to be clarified

CCP response should be public as this is all in public domai


No, scamming is allowed by the rules. Even if it's done externally, it's still within the rules, as long as it involved EVE assets and there's no RMT or scamming of real assets using EVE as a platform. What needs to be clarified is, can a soundcloud file of a TS3 conversation, with no way to link members of that conversation to in game entities without explicit confession by those entities, be used as evidence of rule breaking. If it can, then so can the emails I received from the person that doxed me, which is something I've been told by CCP in no uncertain terms they cannot do.

If it can, then this opens the door to a rather hot mess of potential exploits from the community who can then just fake conversations and record them and claim that such and such happened and they have the audio recording for proof.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Big Lynx
#5724 - 2014-03-27 17:22:55 UTC
Effect One wrote:
This player could have walked away at any given moment. He chose not to. The end.



Would you go away so easily, when a douche takes all your money and items you have worked for?
Lady Areola Fappington
#5725 - 2014-03-27 17:23:00 UTC
LordOfDespair wrote:
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:



wot can I say, I got mah crazy stalkers! Even more amusing, he's Evemailed the CSM and MAJOR GAMING NOOZ WEBSITES over it.

It makes me feel wanted.


Go away creep.


Don't be a hater, be a congradulater!

Hey, last ER shift I saved a dude who managed to OD himself on heroin. You done anything good in life recently?

(Sorry fellow forum warriors, just couldn't resist it!)

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#5726 - 2014-03-27 17:23:18 UTC
Xuixien wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Batelle wrote:
Also, if you (salvos), as a self-described lawyer

I have not anywhere claimed that I am a lawyer.

And how do you know I have not already spoken at TED?


Because no stupid people have ever spoken at TED.

And yes, you did claim to be a lawyer, and then edited the claim out after being notified that claiming to be a lawyer when you're not one can land you in a world of legal hurt.


Ooo juicy!!!

Can you link his comment please?

You should be able to find the original comment of EVE-Files copy of this message board, the one Chribba runs. If it still works that way.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
H aVo K
Tycheon Industries
#5727 - 2014-03-27 17:23:33 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
LordOfDespair wrote:
Andski wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Nobody will stay in a situation where they are subjected to torture, if they can escape it.


http://i.imgur.com/QcCJqnS.png


The fact that you can walk away doesn't excuse scumbag behavior.


No, but it does mitigate it.


Exactly.

If I'm a scumbag to people IRL, I'm likely not going to go to jail for that.

If I torture people IRL, I'm likely going to go to jail for the rest of my life.

There's a subtle but important distinction there ffs.
Prince Kobol
#5728 - 2014-03-27 17:23:45 UTC
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
LordOfDespair wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
Man, if Ero 1 does get a ban out of this, the metagame sillyness will be amazing.

We'll need a name for "Infiltrate corp, join voicecoms, and record a person breaking the EULA/ToS to get them banned".


I have just realised where I have seen your name before.

http://i.imgur.com/sX0vX3z.gif


Wow dude, just wow


Wow indeed.



wot can I say, I got mah crazy stalkers! Even more amusing, he's Evemailed the CSM and MAJOR GAMING NOOZ WEBSITES over it.

It makes me feel wanted.


Well I guess it depends on

A - Your telling the truth then total respect for you, seriously.

B - You are pathetic excuses for a human being trying to pass your self off as a disabled War Veteran and a person caring for kids with leukaemia. I guess if you were either you would understand why it is sick.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#5729 - 2014-03-27 17:24:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Batelle
salvos rhoska wrote:
Batelle wrote:
You criticized me earlier when I brought up contract law, and I explained how there are multiple reasons why no such contract can exist.

If you are going to argue that there can be no contract because there are no actual, real or owned assets involved, I'm sorry, but you are wrong.


That's only ONE reason why it does not constitute a contract. The other reason is that erotica1 never promises anything in exchange for entering the bonus room, its always phrased as a "chance" and the decision to pay out assets/money to the victim is at the sole discretion of erotica1. You can't have a contract if neither side is compelled by the agreement to do anything, guy-who-claims-to-be-a-lawyer-then-edits-his-post-and-lies-about-it.

salvos rhoska wrote:
Batelle wrote:
wtf are you talking about. You're supposed to be explaining how the "victim" isn't a voluntary party to the events in question.

Nobody is voluntarily party to torture.


Which is why its not torture, because its demonstrably voluntary.

Quote:
That exactly is the mechanism whereby the perpetrators force the victim out of the Bonus Room, which constitutes a "win" for them.

Nobody will stay in a situation where they are subjected to torture, if they can escape it.


Again, wtf are you talking about.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#5730 - 2014-03-27 17:24:16 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Acute psychological pain, in this context, is something that is experienced by the victim as a result of someone elses actions inflicting that pain upon them.

If it causes someone acute psychological pain to listen to Gummy Bears, then that is what the individual experiences as a result of being subjected to it.

It is immaterial what causes that pain, if pain is what the victim experiences as a result of it.

It is clear from the recording that Sohkar and his wife are experiencing acute psychological pain as a result of the deliberate and systematic actions towards that end by the perpetrators in the Bonus Room.


i experience "acute psychological pain" whenever i'm in a doctor's waiting room with everyone who feels that they need everyone else in the room to hear them talk on their phones

i should clearly file a formal complaint with the ICJ at The Hague

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Xuixien
Solar Winds Security Solutions
#5731 - 2014-03-27 17:24:18 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Xuixien wrote:
TIL singing Gummy Bears to the Rescue is "acute psychological pain".

Acute psychological pain, in this context, is something that is experienced by the victim as a result of someone elses actions inflicting that pain upon them.

If it causes someone acute psychological pain to listen to Gummy Bears, then that is what the individual experiences as a result of being subjected to it.


Couple of things here...

1) According to your definition of "acute psychological pain", it's based on the victim's reactions, not the perpetrators action.
2) I think "reasonable expectations" weighs in here. Waterboarding someone... there is a reasonable expectation that they will experience acute physical/psychological pain. Is there really a reasonable expectation that asking someone to a sing a song will cause "acute psychological pain"? As mentioned before, this particular client's outburst was completely irregular and unexpected.

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#5732 - 2014-03-27 17:24:33 UTC
Big Lynx wrote:
Effect One wrote:
This player could have walked away at any given moment. He chose not to. The end.



Would you go away so easily, when a douche takes all your money and items you have worked for?


No, but his money and assets weren't taken. He gave them away. Willingly.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
LordOfDespair
Deep Dark Fantasy.
#5733 - 2014-03-27 17:25:54 UTC
Andski wrote:
"scumbag behavior" is one thing, "torture" is another


Torture is too strong a word, still think CCP needs to deal with E1 though.

It is bad enough that everyone thinks only psychopaths play eve, this kind of BS from E1 doesn't help matters at all.
Big Lynx
#5734 - 2014-03-27 17:26:01 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Big Lynx wrote:
Effect One wrote:
This player could have walked away at any given moment. He chose not to. The end.



Would you go away so easily, when a douche takes all your money and items you have worked for?


No, but his money and assets weren't taken. He gave them away. Willingly.


And now we think a bit further. What does Ero et al. say to him permanently after that?
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#5735 - 2014-03-27 17:26:54 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:


Out here in the real world you don't get to play the not-technically-breaking-the-rules card.
Mr Epeen Cool


That's nonsense.

Do you know how many people I have ACHED to arrest but couldn't because there wasn't enough evidence to file a case/no probable cause/not even enough reasonable suspicion to detain them.

You can't imagine the number of times I've had to listen to some prosecutor tell me why a charge was dropped or downgraded to something lesser over some technicality when we KNEW the person was 'guilty' and had handed them what we beleived to be an iron clad "not even Jesus can help you" case. Knowing is not enough,it's what you can prove to a jury to 6-12 people.

Yeah, while I usually enjoy Mr. Epeens input this one is pretty far off the mark.

Most of the world lives in the not-technically-breaking-the-rules zone.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#5736 - 2014-03-27 17:26:57 UTC
Big Lynx wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Big Lynx wrote:
Effect One wrote:
This player could have walked away at any given moment. He chose not to. The end.



Would you go away so easily, when a douche takes all your money and items you have worked for?


No, but his money and assets weren't taken. He gave them away. Willingly.


And now we think a bit further. What does Ero et al. say to him permanently after that?


More importantly, what did he say back?

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Salvos Rhoska
#5737 - 2014-03-27 17:27:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Jenn aSide wrote:
LordOfDespair wrote:
Andski wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Nobody will stay in a situation where they are subjected to torture, if they can escape it.


http://i.imgur.com/QcCJqnS.png


The fact that you can walk away doesn't excuse scumbag behavior.


No, but it does mitigate it.


False.

Being able to walk away from a situation in which you are being subjected to torture, does not stop the actions being taken against you from being torture.

Being restrained from leaving the situation is furthermore not a pre-condition to something fulfilling the definition of torture.

Voluntarily entering into a situation in which you are then subjected to torture, is also not a pre-condition to it fulfilling the definition of torture.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5738 - 2014-03-27 17:27:31 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:


Humiliation isn't some sort of crime that needs to be fixed. If you do't want to be humiliated, don't let people humiliate you, don't take humiliating actions.


No ****. Why do you think I feel the victims don't deserve sympathy?

Jenn aSide wrote:

It's the same as people do in real life, they try to legislate 'protections' for things that are and should be private matters.


If this was a private matter, there wouldn't be hours upon hours of recordings made public for people to hear.

Try filming yourself doing something illegal like stealing a car, posting it on youtube, then insist that people are meddling in your private business when you go to court. Tell me how it works out for you.

The minute Erotica 1 posted the recordings, it became a public matter. If that wasn't the case, this threadnaught wouldn't exist.


Nothing illegal was done here. This is more akin to Beadles about


People sure like responding without reading in this thread. Roll

As I said before, no rule breaking has occurred. All I want to see is a rule against it made or at the very least, CCP clarifying the issue. Even then that was not the point I was trying to make. I was trying to explain to Jenn aSide that Erotica 1 isn't doing this in private.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!
Lady Areola Fappington
#5739 - 2014-03-27 17:27:35 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
LordOfDespair wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
Man, if Ero 1 does get a ban out of this, the metagame sillyness will be amazing.

We'll need a name for "Infiltrate corp, join voicecoms, and record a person breaking the EULA/ToS to get them banned".


I have just realised where I have seen your name before.

http://i.imgur.com/sX0vX3z.gif


Wow dude, just wow


Wow indeed.



wot can I say, I got mah crazy stalkers! Even more amusing, he's Evemailed the CSM and MAJOR GAMING NOOZ WEBSITES over it.

It makes me feel wanted.


Well I guess it depends on

A - Your telling the truth then total respect for you, seriously.

B - You are pathetic excuses for a human being trying to pass your self off as a disabled War Veteran and a person caring for kids with leukaemia. I guess if you were either you would understand why it is sick.


Understand perfectly. Lots of trashy people use the war vet routine to get things, and it makes me go all squee inside when they get busted.

I've offered to send evidence to a trusted third party who won't reveal personal information, but none of the naysayers want that...for some reason, they really wanna see my personal info...wierdos, man.

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide
PinkPanter
Valhalla Drinking Team
#5740 - 2014-03-27 17:27:47 UTC  |  Edited by: PinkPanter
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Big Lynx wrote:
Effect One wrote:
This player could have walked away at any given moment. He chose not to. The end.



Would you go away so easily, when a douche takes all your money and items you have worked for?


No, but his money and assets weren't taken. He gave them away. Willingly.


And then was lured into a unmoderated trap with false promises.

That's the line.

You scammed him? GG and move.
Not enough? You wanted more (way ******* more as it din't rely on in game items anymore) out of your sick greed? Well HTFU and accept the consequences.

Oh wait. We're so special we can do what we want and nobody can't touch us and when they do we come to forums and sperg **** twisting reality to move subject away from the fact.

Man it's like hischool again where young people are learning life the hard way and crying about it.