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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#5701 - 2014-03-27 17:15:21 UTC
LordOfDespair wrote:
ITT too many fear mongers who think that one creep getting punishment will automatically mean it is precedent for everyone else getting perma-banned.

Way to blow things out of proportions.

Imagine if CCP did nothing, then it would be saying that they accept this kind of behavior.


Getting people to sing is not against the rules.

Getting them to read out the code isnt against the rules.

Stealing his stuff isnt against the rules.

So you think we should ban someone for breaking no rules?
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#5702 - 2014-03-27 17:15:56 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Nobody will stay in a situation where they are subjected to torture, if they can escape it.


http://i.imgur.com/QcCJqnS.png

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
LUMINOUS SPIRIT
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#5703 - 2014-03-27 17:15:58 UTC
Xuixien wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Batelle wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
It is not necessary to be restrained or prevented from being able to remove oneself from the situation, for it to constitue torture, and in this incidence, it is exactly that which the perpetrators are leveraging against the victim.


It is if you're going to call it torture, since your own definition specifies that it must be against "the will of the latter [victim]," and its demonstrable that the victim was willing.


It is normal and justified to assume that nobodies will includes being subject to torture.

The will of the two parties are as follows:

-The will of the perpetrators in the Bonus Room, is to force the victim to leave the Bonus Room.
This is how they win the Bonus Room.

-The will of the victim is to fulfill the terms of the contract, and receive the reward.
That is how they win the Bonus Room (supposedly).

In order for the perpetrators to win, and to actualise their will, they systematically and deliberately inflict acute psychological pain on the victim (as constitutes torture according to Amnesty International, as sourced in my sig)

This is how the perpetrators in the Bonus Room "win".

Torture is the mechanism whereby they enact that.


TIL singing Gummy Bears to the Rescue is "acute psychological pain".



You f-ed up E1. Now you gona pay the price buddy. Nice knowing ya.
Khergit Deserters
Crom's Angels
#5704 - 2014-03-27 17:16:19 UTC
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
lollerwaffle wrote:

So let me ask you some simple questions:
Does Erotic 1 deserve a ban (some are even pushing for a lifetime ban)?
If yes, on what grounds?
Which rules did he break to result in this punishment?


I do not think he deserves a ban within the current set of the games rules. As I said before, victims willingly put themselves through his horrible mind games. They can opt out of playing or leave at anytime they chose. What I would like to see happen is for CCP to change the rules, and if Erotica 1 keeps doing what he's doing, then and only then would he deserve a ban.

The problem is not that Erotica 1 is breaking the rules. It's that he's doing something we should have rules against, which is his method of humiliating players. I have nothing against scamming at all (and this is coming from someone who was scammed in the past). What I do have a problem with is humiliating someone until they break.

Only the first part of these bonus rooms is a scam. The rest is shitting all over someone until they drown in it for several hours.

I'd agree. It's hard to see where he technically broke any of the existing rules. It wouldn't be fair to ban somebody for doing something that wasn't clearly and plainly a bannable offense. It would be more fair to give him a warning, then publish a clarifying policy for the whole community to see.

-Hon. Chief Justice Khergit Deserters, Esq.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#5705 - 2014-03-27 17:16:26 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:

Batelle wrote:
wtf are you talking about. You're supposed to be explaining how the "victim" isn't a voluntary party to the events in question.

Nobody is voluntarily party to torture.

That exactly is the mechanism whereby the perpetrators force the victim out of the Bonus Room, which constitutes a "win" for them.

Nobody will stay in a situation where they are subjected to torture, if they can escape it.


Nobody would willingly enter it, either. You haven't answered the question. What makes Sokhar an unwilling participant when he willfully entered it to begin with? Even if your argument is that he's stuck there, you're not providing an explanation for how he's there in the first place against his will.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Lady Areola Fappington
#5706 - 2014-03-27 17:16:40 UTC
LordOfDespair wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
Man, if Ero 1 does get a ban out of this, the metagame sillyness will be amazing.

We'll need a name for "Infiltrate corp, join voicecoms, and record a person breaking the EULA/ToS to get them banned".


I have just realised where I have seen your name before.

http://i.imgur.com/sX0vX3z.gif


Wow dude, just wow


Wow indeed.



wot can I say, I got mah crazy stalkers! Even more amusing, he's Evemailed the CSM and MAJOR GAMING NOOZ WEBSITES over it.

It makes me feel wanted.

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5707 - 2014-03-27 17:16:58 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:


Humiliation isn't some sort of crime that needs to be fixed. If you do't want to be humiliated, don't let people humiliate you, don't take humiliating actions.


No ****. Why do you think I feel the victims don't deserve sympathy?

Jenn aSide wrote:

It's the same as people do in real life, they try to legislate 'protections' for things that are and should be private matters.


If this was a private matter, there wouldn't be hours upon hours of recordings made public for people to hear.

Try filming yourself doing something illegal like stealing a car, posting it on youtube, then insist that people are meddling in your private business when you go to court. Tell me how it works out for you.

The minute Erotica 1 posted the recordings, it became a public matter. If that wasn't the case, this threadnaught wouldn't exist.

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!
LordOfDespair
Deep Dark Fantasy.
#5708 - 2014-03-27 17:17:21 UTC
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:



wot can I say, I got mah crazy stalkers! Even more amusing, he's Evemailed the CSM and MAJOR GAMING NOOZ WEBSITES over it.

It makes me feel wanted.


Go away creep.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#5709 - 2014-03-27 17:17:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Mr Epeen wrote:


Out here in the real world you don't get to play the not-technically-breaking-the-rules card.
Mr Epeen Cool


That's nonsense.

Do you know how many people I have ACHED to arrest but couldn't because there wasn't enough evidence to file a case/no probable cause/not even enough reasonable suspicion to detain them.

You can't imagine the number of times I've had to listen to some prosecutor tell me why a charge was dropped or downgraded to something lesser over some technicality when we KNEW the person was 'guilty' and had handed them what we beleived to be an iron clad "not even Jesus can help you" case. Knowing is not enough,it's what you can prove to a jury to 6-12 people.
H aVo K
Tycheon Industries
#5710 - 2014-03-27 17:17:50 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:

Ranger 1 wrote:
Frankly the act of willfully submitting yourself to acute pain and humiliation of your own free will, when you are free to leave at any time, is called Masochism... not torture. Blink

As demonstrated in the link in my sig, the circumstances whereby a person enters into a situation where torture is enacted on them, is immaterial to whether it is torture. And as also demonstrated in the link in my sig, torture does not predicate the victim being restricted from leaving the situation in which he is being tortured.

Neither of these considerations are material to whether what is being done to them, constitutes torture.


The circumstances whereby a person enters a situation where physical pain is inflicted on them are wholly material to whether or not it is considered torture.

Were that not the case, the millions of people who practice BDSM would be ******, and guys like Jay Wiseman would be out of a job.

Much like with BDSM, the person having the pain inflicted on them can call at any point and have it stop. If they choose not to, and get hurt, we enter into a grey area.

Sohkar provided tacit consent to everything that went on simply by giving all of his isk, and then further giving every shred of assets over. He could have withdrawn that consent at any time by simply leaving teamspeak. Not doing so was his choice. The fact that E1 took it too far is immaterial to the question of whether or not Sohkar could have ended it at any time by simply leaving. That doesn't absolve E1 of any wrongdoing, it just means that your claims of it being "torture" are patently absurd.
olan2005
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#5711 - 2014-03-27 17:18:03 UTC  |  Edited by: olan2005
Wesley Otsdarva wrote:
CCP Falcon wrote:
The feedback in this thread is very much appreciated, and we've been watching it since it was first posted.

While we can appreciate that tensions are high, please remember to keep within the forum rules when posting.

We'll have more information for you guys in the coming days.

Smile



Thanks Falcon. I know the threads been monitored. But I would still like a CCP reply on the issue. I think we've beat the topic into dust. All I see now is a few people who know the middle ground is a good place to be. (me included)

And then a bunch of people screaming either

"FRY CARL LEE!, FRY CARL LEE!" or "FREE CARL LEE!!, FREE CARL LEE!!"


I think ccp need to come down the middle here. It was not torture that's to extreme. It was harassment, cyber bullying by the scammer. It was racism under altered mental state by the victim


Rule clarity on use of outside game tools for scamming in game property needs to be clarified

Rule clarity on the difference between a. Scam and harassment needs to be clarified

CCP response should be public as this is all in public domain. And yes bans should be handed out to both but with some leniency towards the victim
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#5712 - 2014-03-27 17:18:04 UTC
Andski wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Nobody will stay in a situation where they are subjected to torture, if they can escape it.


http://i.imgur.com/QcCJqnS.png


Oh man, you really are the life of the party, and I'm not being sarcastic. Good show. Very good show.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
Danalee
A Blessed Bean
Pandemic Horde
#5713 - 2014-03-27 17:18:35 UTC
Alp Khan wrote:
You lie and say, Erotica 1 did not gather NSFW pictures of his victims from bonus rooms and disseminated them on forums.

You lie and say, Erotica 1 did not have bonus room victims write whatever he wanted on their bodies with mayo, get pictures taken and disseminate them.

Yet these are very well established in both the words of Erotica 1 himself, and in the pictures he disseminated.

If you have reviewed all the evidence, then how come you were ignoring another CSM member, mynnna'a posts in this thread in which he authenticated Erotica 1's further psychopathic acts?

Answer is very simple. You are trying to whitewash a psychopath. You are lying to this great community. You are trying to trick this community to throw whatever little support can be thrown at the back of a sadist and a psychopath.

Shame must be an alien concept to you.


I'm saying first and formost, this is about the bonus room everyone can hear a recording of. The one linked.
I have seen no proof of any so called victims writing whatever he wanted on their bodies with any condiments.
If I had seen this proof, I'd still be able to laugh with it and not find it creepy because this happened between consenting adults.
But still, as opposed to your claims, nothing has been established on that particular matter not pertaining to this thread.

I've seen no psychopatic acts and what someone says about someone else is hardly worth the pixels it used.

You are trying to organise a witchhunt against someone you dislike. Shame must indeed be an alien concept to you.

D.

Bear

Proud member of the Somalian Coast Guard Authority

Member and Juror of the Court of Crime and Punishment
PinkPanter
Valhalla Drinking Team
#5714 - 2014-03-27 17:18:42 UTC  |  Edited by: PinkPanter
baltec1 wrote:
LordOfDespair wrote:
ITT too many fear mongers who think that one creep getting punishment will automatically mean it is precedent for everyone else getting perma-banned.

Way to blow things out of proportions.

Imagine if CCP did nothing, then it would be saying that they accept this kind of behavior.


Getting people to sing is not against the rules.

Getting them to read out the code isnt against the rules.

Stealing his stuff isnt against the rules.

So you think we should ban someone for breaking no rules?


Why you forget to add that he was lured out of game for futher "amusment" since they knew he has nothing else they can scam him off?

C'mon B. 1+1 ain't hard.

Why people are being prosecuted for posting **** on twitter. I mean freedom of speech and so on.

You don't need rocket science to figure this out. ALL you need is COMMON SENSE and protection to the integrity of your (EVE) product before something like this happens and even legislators start knocking on your door.
LordOfDespair
Deep Dark Fantasy.
#5715 - 2014-03-27 17:18:47 UTC
Andski wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Nobody will stay in a situation where they are subjected to torture, if they can escape it.


http://i.imgur.com/QcCJqnS.png


The fact that you can walk away doesn't excuse scumbag behavior.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#5716 - 2014-03-27 17:19:50 UTC
"scumbag behavior" is one thing, "torture" is another

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#5717 - 2014-03-27 17:19:52 UTC
LordOfDespair wrote:
Andski wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Nobody will stay in a situation where they are subjected to torture, if they can escape it.


http://i.imgur.com/QcCJqnS.png


The fact that you can walk away doesn't excuse scumbag behavior.


No, but it does mitigate it.
Salvos Rhoska
#5718 - 2014-03-27 17:20:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Xuixien wrote:
TIL singing Gummy Bears to the Rescue is "acute psychological pain".

Acute psychological pain, in this context, is something that is experienced by the victim as a result of someone elses actions inflicting that pain upon them.

If it causes someone acute psychological pain to listen to Gummy Bears, then that is what the individual experiences as a result of being subjected to it.

It is immaterial what causes that pain, if pain is what the victim experiences as a result of it.

It is clear from the recording that Sohkar and his wife are experiencing acute psychological pain as a result of the deliberate and systematic actions towards that end by the perpetrators in the Bonus Room.

And as I have demonstrated, inflicting that acute psychological pain, systematically and deliberately, is the mechanism whereby Erotica1 "wins" the Bonus Room, by forcing them to leave it, sooner or later.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Bethan Le Troix
Krusual Investigation Agency
#5719 - 2014-03-27 17:20:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Bethan Le Troix
H aVo K wrote:
Fredfredbug4 wrote:
Asking them to do or say humiliating things is where Erotica 1 crosses the line from scammer to sadist.


Part of the reason why I love EVE so much is that when you lose at PVP, you actually LOSE something. It's more tangible than just having to respawn.

I love that I'm potentially ruining someone's day a little by blowing up their space pixels.

That's a sadistic pleasure.

Experiencing even the slightest bit of schadenfreude is also a sadistic pleasure.

So stop bandying about with terms like "morally indefensible", "sadistic", or "psychological torture".

If you've ever committed corp espionage, you've done something that's morally indefensible.

if you've ever performed any activity whatsoever to try and make a person not want to play the game, you've set yourself to find a way to torture their psyche.

If you've ever pvped, or taken pleasure at someone's downfall in EVE (like Mittens being kicked from the CSM), then you've done something sadistic.

The question to be asked is: In a game where you can spend a year, or more, becoming a close friend of people just so you can shank them in the back when it matters most, how is this worse?

... that's not rhetorical.


The examples you have listed are not morally indefensible, psychological torture or sadistic just as all the examples of irony in one of Alanis Morrisettes songs are not in fact ironic. The examples you listed are legal in-game activities.

On the other hand at a certain point in the sound recording between Erotica 1 and the victim those terms probably do apply to what is happening.
Xuixien
Solar Winds Security Solutions
#5720 - 2014-03-27 17:20:44 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Xuixien wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Batelle wrote:
Also, if you (salvos), as a self-described lawyer

I have not anywhere claimed that I am a lawyer.

And how do you know I have not already spoken at TED?


Because no stupid people have ever spoken at TED.

And yes, you did claim to be a lawyer, and then edited the claim out after being notified that claiming to be a lawyer when you're not one can land you in a world of legal hurt.


Ooo juicy!!!

Can you link his comment please?


No, it became redundant when he edited it, that's the problem. I can't prove he made this claim, but a lot of people saw it and I can link responses that have been made after he claimed such, where the poster thinks they are talking to a lawyer, specifically stating, "I understand you are a lawyer, me too (not american)." There are a whole bunch of posts in that area of a the thread addressing him similarly where the air of assumption is that he is a lawyer, and a few where he acts like one accusing people of libel and all sorts. The context is there.


Yeah.

We (BU) had him on our TS3 the other night, and we were arguing about this issue. He specifically said, in just this way "And can I ask where you got your law degrees?" to one of the people in the channel. When pressed on the issue of whether or not he's a lawyer, he dances around it pretty poorly. "I never said I was a lawyer. What makes you think I'm a lawyer?"

His tactics are so sophomoric and transparent it's ridiculous. But I guess he did claim to be a lawyer, eh?

I just wanted to see the post because even when a post is edited, sometimes you can see the original content.

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist