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Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#4501 - 2014-03-27 06:41:20 UTC
Kyperion wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:


Citation needed. Seriously, even just a case study would legitimise this claim.

Google "died while playing video game"


No citation then? Thought so.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#4502 - 2014-03-27 06:42:42 UTC  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
Erica Dusette wrote:
The point is that there is, and always will be, a chunk of our community that is emotionally vulnerable like that and will overreact and take things hard. I'd argue against calling people like that part of an unstable fringe. It's very common. Do we write those folks off as "idiots" and just keep playing, or do we try to make our game as inclusive and reasonable for everyone as we can?

My point is that you can't account for mentally instabillity. The things that go on in erotica 1's bonus room are nothing compared to some of the things you hear in an Xbox live call of duty lobby. And there is NOTHING at stake in those games, no assets lost.

You could give everyone in eve unlimited free ships and assets, and you would STILL be able to provoke an episode from the mentally unstable.

You could turn eve into a care bear Utopia where the possibility of asset loss doesn't exist, and the mentally unstable will still find a reason to lash out. There is a mountain of evidence for this in the chat channels and lobbies of every online multilayer game ever made.

This isn't a problem to be fixed, it simply is.
Kaivar Lancer
Doomheim
#4503 - 2014-03-27 06:42:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaivar Lancer
The only harassment being conducted is Ripard specifically targeting Erotica1. And unlike Sohkar, Erotica1 never consented to being blogged or targeted by Ripard. This cyber-bullying must end.
Alana Charen-Teng
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#4504 - 2014-03-27 06:43:41 UTC
Ah, GD, the stronghold of bleeding heart bears. Pitchforks and torches have been gathered. Gallows and noose are prepared. The wailing and gnashing of teeth have reached fever pitch.

May this thread never die.
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#4505 - 2014-03-27 06:43:42 UTC
I believe that if CCP want to keep some control over the situation, they need to be seen as responsible enough to self regulate.

If they sit on their hands they might just find some government agency headed by a liberal petty bureaucrat regulating for them. Not a good precedent. Once it's out of their hands things will go from inconvenient to downright repressive really fast.

In this instance, CCP being proactive wins over reactive 100%.

Mr Epeen Cool
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#4506 - 2014-03-27 06:44:11 UTC
So has Rippard Teg gotten rid of "evil" in New Eden yet?

Every single argument here has been made over a decade ago.

Expecting Eve Online - Trammel Server, if CCP gives in to the masterful manipulation started at his blog.

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~
Space Juden
Supermassive Potato Pancake
#4507 - 2014-03-27 06:44:13 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Erica Dusette wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:

No it won't. A number of people have died playing wow, and wow is still around years later with millions of subscribers.

You can't base everything around what the mentally unstable fringe might do.

That's a good point.

Although is it an accurate comparison? The WoW deaths I've heard of have always been due to some pretty hardcore addiction, and not the result of a player being antagonized in some form.

Let me ask you something: what is a billion isk to you?

To me, its a nicely fit T3 or two. Or maybe a blops. I've eaten those types of losses before. And honestly, so has much of the eve community.

When I lost that much isk, I didn't cry, or yell, bang a desk, or threaten someones mother in impotent rage. To me, someone that demonstrates these symptoms has a problem. Maybe even a hardcore addiction as you say, idk.

The point is, such a person is not well adjusted, and you can't base policy for a community of hundreds of thousands based on the response of the mentally unstable fringe. Just my 2 isk.



Making value judgments on ISK is besides the point. The issue is that he was humiliated and I think... wasn't so much looking for his ISK back but his pride.
Kyperion
#4508 - 2014-03-27 06:44:46 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Kyperion wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:


Citation needed. Seriously, even just a case study would legitimise this claim.

Google "died while playing video game"


No citation then? Thought so.


That you need one to realize people have died while playing video games, is like needing a citation to 'prove' the holocaust...
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#4509 - 2014-03-27 06:45:44 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
I believe that if CCP want to keep some control over the situation, they need to be seen as responsible enough to self regulate.

If they sit on their hands they might just find some government agency headed by a liberal petty bureaucrat regulating for them. Not a good precedent. Once it's out of their hands things will go from inconvenient to downright repressive really fast.

In this instance, CCP being proactive wins over reactive 100%.

Mr Epeen Cool


That's not even an argument, that's a small, petty insinuation of a possibility of a threat of prosecution where no previous international legal precedent exists for something that isn't a crime in the first place.

You lot are just hilarious.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Endovior
PFU Consortium
#4510 - 2014-03-27 06:46:12 UTC
Mr Epeen wrote:
I believe that if CCP want to keep some control over the situation, they need to be seen as responsible enough to self regulate.

If they sit on their hands they might just find some government agency headed by a liberal petty bureaucrat regulating for them. Not a good precedent. Once it's out of their hands things will go from inconvenient to downright repressive really fast.

In this instance, CCP being proactive wins over reactive 100%.

Mr Epeen Cool


Fortunately for us all, CCP is an Icelandic company. Given that they are a pillar of the Icelandic economy, I think they're probably pretty safe from that sort of thing. Big smile
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#4511 - 2014-03-27 06:46:30 UTC
Kyperion wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Kyperion wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:


Citation needed. Seriously, even just a case study would legitimise this claim.

Google "died while playing video game"


No citation then? Thought so.


That you need one to realize people have died while playing video games, is like needing a citation to 'prove' the holocaust...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_magnitude

You people need to knock off the hyperbole.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#4512 - 2014-03-27 06:51:16 UTC
Space Juden wrote:



Making value judgments on ISK is besides the point. The issue is that he was humiliated and I think... wasn't so much looking for his ISK back but his pride.

The fact that a billion isk can make someone loose their pride is no less a sign of mental instability or hardcore addiction.

We can take pity on the victim, we can sympathize with him, and perhaps we should but in the final analysis this problem begins and ends in the victims mind. You and I are powerless to fix it. If we could, it would be a wonderful thing, not just for the victim, or the Eve community, but for all mankind. But we can't.

Maybe CCP should put a big flashing warning sign on the character select screen that says:

WARNING THIS IS JUST A GAME. PLEASE DON'T HURT YOURSELF. WE LOVE YOU FOR WHO YOU ARE.
Mario Putzo
#4513 - 2014-03-27 06:52:10 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Kyperion wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Kyperion wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:


Citation needed. Seriously, even just a case study would legitimise this claim.

Google "died while playing video game"


No citation then? Thought so.


That you need one to realize people have died while playing video games, is like needing a citation to 'prove' the holocaust...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_magnitude

You people need to knock off the hyperbole.


But Hyperbole sustains me.
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#4514 - 2014-03-27 06:52:58 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Mr Epeen wrote:
I believe that if CCP want to keep some control over the situation, they need to be seen as responsible enough to self regulate.

If they sit on their hands they might just find some government agency headed by a liberal petty bureaucrat regulating for them. Not a good precedent. Once it's out of their hands things will go from inconvenient to downright repressive really fast.

In this instance, CCP being proactive wins over reactive 100%.

Mr Epeen Cool


That's not even an argument, that's a small, petty insinuation of a possibility of a threat of prosecution where no previous international legal precedent exists for something that isn't a crime in the first place.

You lot are just hilarious.


Plenty of precedents in plenty of industries of this happening in nanny states. Not just industries but you as an individual. Go without seat belt? Hardly. Smoke near nearly anything? No way. Talk on your phone where you want to? Yeah, that'll happen. Do you know how much choice over your own life you've lost in just the last decade?

Think about it and then think again about what might happen in MMOs if they don't learn to self regulate.

Mr Epeen Cool
Space Juden
Supermassive Potato Pancake
#4515 - 2014-03-27 06:53:05 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Space Juden wrote:



Making value judgments on ISK is besides the point. The issue is that he was humiliated and I think... wasn't so much looking for his ISK back but his pride.

The fact that a billion isk can make someone loose their pride is no less a sign of mental instability or hardcore addiction.

We can take pity on the victim, we can sympathize with him, and perhaps we should but in the final analysis this problem begins and ends in the victims mind. You and I are powerless to fix it. If we could, it would be a wonderful thing, not just for the victim, or the Eve community, but for all mankind. But we can't.

Maybe CCP should put a big flashing warning sign on the character select screen that says:

WARNING THIS IS JUST A GAME. PLEASE DON'T HURT YOURSELF. WE LOVE YOU FOR WHO YOU ARE.


I don't disagree with the point you're making but just losing a billion ISK was just the beginning of his humiliation.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#4516 - 2014-03-27 06:55:11 UTC
Space Juden wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Space Juden wrote:



Making value judgments on ISK is besides the point. The issue is that he was humiliated and I think... wasn't so much looking for his ISK back but his pride.

The fact that a billion isk can make someone loose their pride is no less a sign of mental instability or hardcore addiction.

We can take pity on the victim, we can sympathize with him, and perhaps we should but in the final analysis this problem begins and ends in the victims mind. You and I are powerless to fix it. If we could, it would be a wonderful thing, not just for the victim, or the Eve community, but for all mankind. But we can't.

Maybe CCP should put a big flashing warning sign on the character select screen that says:

WARNING THIS IS JUST A GAME. PLEASE DON'T HURT YOURSELF. WE LOVE YOU FOR WHO YOU ARE.


I don't disagree with the point you're making but just losing a billion ISK was just the beginning of his humiliation.


Yeah, the rest was the part where he quit, then kept coming back out of greed. He sought them out, repeatedly.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#4517 - 2014-03-27 06:55:25 UTC
It's not the pixels that are the issue. The issue is a number of subcribed EvE players are singling out other subscribed EvE players in game, using the game client, getting them to gamble their stuff and then using that EvE virtual property as leverage to coerce them onto a team speak server where they are humiliated and harassed. They then post the recorded conversation on EvE forums to further humiliate that player.

We have already established the EULA prohibits that behaviour. They're clearly using both the server and forums to harass and embarrass, they are clearly harming CCPs reputation (only have to read popular gaming forums to see the negative posts about EvE and this event popping up).

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Hello Monument Visitor
Doomheim
#4518 - 2014-03-27 06:56:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Hello Monument Visitor
I just want to summarize a bit for my own sake and maybe others. There really are a lot of posts about this now! Please indicate where I may have gone wrong...


  1. E1 baits gullible and / or vulnerable people in EvE with a scam.
  2. Once a potential victim is found and has shown sufficient vulnerability, they are invited to continue out of game on TS (the bonus room).
  3. The scam continues for a few minutes on TS until the victim has been scammed out of all in-game assets.
  4. E1 then ransoms the victim's assets through a series of humiliating & escalating non-game related actions & tasks, picking up on any possible weaknesses the victim may have (speech impediment for example).
  5. E1 continues this process for as long as it takes for the victim to display alarming levels of psychological torment & distress and snap into outrage.
  6. The whole process is recorded and sometimes made public.


What I gather from reading many (but not all) comments is that the player base in general are OK with 1 & 2 as it's all a part of the game we play. Most are still OK with 3 but some don't like taking it out of game (mainly due to subsequent steps I think, might be wrong here though).

4 is beginning to push certain limits that people have, mainly based around extending an EvE scam into real world actions. 5 is seen as thoroughly reprehensible. 6 isn't mentioned too much - some see it as pawn for E1's pleasure, some as further psychological torment of the victim.

That's my rough summary of the most common views from the players.

A minority try to validate E1's actions with things like "the victim should be banned for making threats", "HTFU, it's EvE", "he deserved it", "It's not illegal or in contravention of the EULA" (that's possibly the most common one) and possibly the most outstandingly appalling one is "E1 only did it to this extent once, other times weren't as bad so it's an outlier and is therefore OK".

For what it's worth, I'd say the majority of the EvE player base are morally sound people. The poor reputation that EvE's player base has is undeserved and is based on a very small minority. Reading this thread is evidence of this.
Erica Dusette
Division 13
#4519 - 2014-03-27 06:58:30 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Erica Dusette wrote:
The point is that there is, and always will be, a chunk of our community that is emotionally vulnerable like that and will overreact and take things hard. I'd argue against calling people like that part of an unstable fringe. It's very common. Do we write those folks off as "idiots" and just keep playing, or do we try to make our game as inclusive and reasonable for everyone as we can?

My point is that you can't account for mentally instabillity. The things that go on in erotica 1's bonus room are nothing compared to some of the things you hear in an Xbox live call of duty lobby. And there is NOTHING at stake in those games, no assets lost.

You could give everyone in eve unlimited free ships and assets, and you would STILL be able to provoke an episode from the mentally unstable.

You could turn eve into a care bear Utopia where the possibility of asset loss doesn't exist, and the mentally unstable will still find a reason to lash out. There is a mountain of evidence for this in the chat channels and lobbies of every online multilayer game ever made.

This isn't a problem to be fixed, it simply is.

Hmm, more good point from you! Smile

Is nice to have some reasonable discussion in this thread lol Seems most posters here are closer to "idiots" than anyone involved in the original bonus room issue were. P

You're absolutely correct with most of your points I think (I still disagree with your assesment of these emotional gamers as being unstable though - least not all of them). People will always rage in any game, no matter the circumstance of the game. But I feel it should come down to allowing only what is reasonable. Lost ISK to a scam? Got ganked? Then raged afterward? Too bad imo, those are reasonable circumstances within the boundaries of the game.

Allow yourself to be dragged through a silly thing on TS, acting out humiliating scenarios, affecting others around you IRL? Then have the whole episode made public for further humiliation? Hmmm. I think this begins to step into unreasonable territory, despite the 'victim' being able to end it at anytime. Chicken or the egg, I guess. Should we allow people to be placed in that situation to begin with when we know there will always be people who will come out the other side hurt in RL, regardless of their mental stability?

I dunno. But I look forward to hearing CCP's take eventually.

Jack Miton > you be nice or you're sleeping on the couch again!

Part-Time Wormhole Pirate ツ Full-Time Supermodel

▷ worмнole dιary + cнaracтer вιoѕ ▷ вσss
Cha'ka Khan
Dark Skies Dojo
Wrong Hole.
#4520 - 2014-03-27 07:01:03 UTC
Space Juden wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Erica Dusette wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:

No it won't. A number of people have died playing wow, and wow is still around years later with millions of subscribers.

You can't base everything around what the mentally unstable fringe might do.

That's a good point.

Although is it an accurate comparison? The WoW deaths I've heard of have always been due to some pretty hardcore addiction, and not the result of a player being antagonized in some form.

Let me ask you something: what is a billion isk to you?

To me, its a nicely fit T3 or two. Or maybe a blops. I've eaten those types of losses before. And honestly, so has much of the eve community.

When I lost that much isk, I didn't cry, or yell, bang a desk, or threaten someones mother in impotent rage. To me, someone that demonstrates these symptoms has a problem. Maybe even a hardcore addiction as you say, idk.

The point is, such a person is not well adjusted, and you can't base policy for a community of hundreds of thousands based on the response of the mentally unstable fringe. Just my 2 isk.



Making value judgments on ISK is besides the point. The issue is that he was humiliated and I think... wasn't so much looking for his ISK back but his pride.




Pride goeth before a fall...............

The only thing we have to fear, is new pilots and AFK miners.