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Cyno mechanics
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Aerozzz
Afragoi Ltd
#1 - 2014-03-26 13:30:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Aerozzz
Hi,

I have a couple of questions regarding the mechanics of cyno fields in EvE. I did some limited testing on SiSi, but I'm still not sure.

Sorry if any of these questions have been asked / answered before, but I didn't find anything while googling / searching the forums / etc.

1) When you jump a capital ship to cyno, the jumping ship will appear in 2.5km-5km sphere from the cyno. Can anyone verify this?

2) If the above is correct, when you light a cyno on a station, you make sure to be more than 5km away from the station model (I've heard 7-7.5km), to avoid bumping / collision. Is that right? Is the extra distance required due to the way that EvE handles ship and station models?

3) When jumping to a cyno on the edge of the shield, the first mechanic seems to be overridden somehow. I tried jumping to cynos on the edge of the forcefield on SiSi (~50 times back and forth) and it seems that the jumping ship can appear as far as 12-13km from the cyno (hence the forcefield). I never managed to land inside the forcefield, and it seemed that when lighting the cyno 3-4km away from teh forcefield, I had a higher chance of landing 'towards / closer to the POS' (relative to the cyno). Is this a known mechanic? Is it documented anywhere (patch notes etc)?

Regarding (3), I searched the forums a bit, and found a reference that this might have been changed when dealing with an issue with lighting a cyno inside a POS (I think when sliding the cyno ship inside), but I haven't found any other info on this. In addition to that, I found a blog bost [1] which has a note that states: "* Clarification courtesy of Jester: When jumping to a cyno on grid with a POS, ships will appear 5km from the cyno or 15km from the edge of the POS shield, whichever is greater.". This doesn't seem to be the case according to my tests.

4) Is there any way to prevent (super) capital ships from bumping when jumping to a cyno? I've heard that jumping in small groups might help, but as long as the ships that jumped first are still in the (5km) range of the cyno, the new ships that jump in have a chance of landing right on top of the first group (which eg are now trying to warp), resulting in mutual bumps (I guess the ships that just landed with 0 speed will get bumped much harder than the one trying to warp, which would have some speed).

5) Since I haven't seen it documented either and I can't reproduce it on SiSi atm, what happens when you try to jump to a cyno and the cyno ship dies while you jump? I've heard that you end up in the sun (and you're getting bumped hard after that), but I also read some old forum posts that stated that you end up in a random position in space. I tried to self destruct the cyno while jumping with a capital on SiSi, but apparently I couldn't synchronize it well enough to reproduce it.

Thanks!

[1] http://www.evealtruist.com/2012/04/how-to-move-capital-ship.html
Aralyn Cormallen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2 - 2014-03-26 14:02:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Aralyn Cormallen
Aerozzz wrote:

2) If the above is correct, when you light a cyno on a station, you make sure to be more than 5km away from the station model (I've heard 7-7.5km), to avoid bumping / collision. Is that right? Is the extra distance required due to the way that EvE handles ship and station models?

3) When jumping to a cyno on the edge of the shield, the first mechanic seems to be overridden somehow. I tried jumping to cynos on the edge of the forcefield on SiSi (~50 times back and forth) and it seems that the jumping ship can appear as far as 12-13km from the cyno (hence the forcefield). I never managed to land inside the forcefield, and it seemed that when lighting the cyno 3-4km away from teh forcefield, I had a higher chance of landing 'towards / closer to the POS' (relative to the cyno). Is this a known mechanic? Is it documented anywhere (patch notes etc)?

Regarding (3), I searched the forums a bit, and found a reference that this might have been changed when dealing with an issue with lighting a cyno inside a POS (I think when sliding the cyno ship inside), but I haven't found any other info on this. In addition to that, I found a blog bost [1] which has a note that states: "* Clarification courtesy of Jester: When jumping to a cyno on grid with a POS, ships will appear 5km from the cyno or 15km from the edge of the POS shield, whichever is greater.". This doesn't seem to be the case according to my tests.

4) Is there any way to prevent (super) capital ships from bumping when jumping to a cyno? I've heard that jumping in small groups might help, but as long as the ships that jumped first are still in the (5km) range of the cyno, the new ships that jump in have a chance of landing right on top of the first group (which eg are now trying to warp), resulting in mutual bumps (I guess the ships that just landed with 0 speed will get bumped much harder than the one trying to warp, which would have some speed).

5) Since I haven't seen it documented either and I can't reproduce it on SiSi atm, what happens when you try to jump to a cyno and the cyno ship dies while you jump? I've heard that you end up in the sun (and you're getting bumped hard after that), but I also read some old forum posts that stated that you end up in a random position in space. I tried to self destruct the cyno while jumping with a capital on SiSi, but apparently I couldn't synchronize it well enough to reproduce it.

Thanks!

[1] http://www.evealtruist.com/2012/04/how-to-move-capital-ship.html


2 - I've never lit a cyno, so can't talk about that part of it, but I've certainly cannoned of a station model before due to bad cyno placement. There is no hard and fast rules, as every station model is that little bit different, and some station model and docking range combos are just crummy and make placement difficult, or in some cases outright impossible. In such a situation you just have to hope you don't clear the docking range before the jump timer has finished (or have a friend with a Machariel in station to bump you back like I had once!)

3 - As for POS shields - bare in mind that if your jump would have landed you within the shield, but you aren't permitted to enter (don't have correct password set, etc), that might land you further from the shield (this is conjecture though).

4 - Only solution I know of is "hand-breaking", fitting a 100mn MWD (you will sometimes see dead Titans with Faction BS MWDs for this reason), then when you bump, activating the MWD to increase mass, and clicking towards the direction you are coming from. Doesn't stop you bouncing, but I'm told it arrests the bounce faster.

5 - A bit of both, sometimes you land in open space, other times in the sun, and then proceed to bump at ludicrous-speed (experienced this personally when bridging through a Titan, I've never had it happen to me when jumping a capital though). The odds of this happening go up if you are jumping in a fleet, since TiDi in the jumping system will often guaranteed you are screwed if the cyno is on grid with hostiles (hence why, when jumping large cap fleets into a hot grid, it is customary to jump in a single carrier first, then that carrier light the cyno for the rest of the fleet). The sun bump is especially bad for a Capital - I have personally sailed for several minutes in a Battleship when this happened. Hmm, part of me wonders how long you would sail if you Seiged a Dread on landing at the Sun....
Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
#3 - 2014-03-26 14:39:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Chribba
3) The shield indeed overrides anything else. I believe this isn't the "sliding cyno" reason though since you could never do that anyway (you can slide the ship, but not the cyno itself). The cyno inside POS I think is when you lit a cyno before the shields are up. Eg wit until the POS is coming online and 10 sec before it goes online lit the cyno, cyno will now be inside the shields.

So to counter that, caps will still land outside the shields, and I wouldn't be surprised if CCP added a minimum margin like you said (I never managed to land closer than like 3km, usually I end up 7-10km away).

4) Like Aralyn said, the fastest way to stop from a bounce is to use a mwd in the opposite direction of your movement.

/c

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Serene Repose
#4 - 2014-03-26 14:45:26 UTC
hmmm....the "science" of this becomes less scientific by the moment. This becomes more like steering a shopping cart with a wobbly front wheel than navigating a space ship via computer.

We must accommodate the idiocracy.
Aralyn Cormallen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#5 - 2014-03-26 14:51:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Aralyn Cormallen
Serene Repose wrote:
hmmm....the "science" of this becomes less scientific by the moment. This becomes more like steering a shopping cart with a wobbly front wheel than navigating a space ship via computer.


Sounds about right - jumping a capital fleet is a bit like trying to navigate a couple of dozen people down a supermarket aisle with said aformentioned wobbly-wheeled-trolleys, complete with the predictable pile-up.

EDIT - Although, to be fair, this is probably just my Alliance. There is a reason we refer to one particular capital-move op from a year ago as "the trail of tears".
Othran
Route One
#6 - 2014-03-26 16:35:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Othran
Serene Repose wrote:
hmmm....the "science" of this becomes less scientific by the moment. This becomes more like steering a shopping cart with a wobbly front wheel than navigating a space ship via computer.


Its perfectly easy to understand provided you're not trying to cyno into a POS/next to POS shields.

ALL ships land within 5km of the cyno when they jump to it. Use a Salvager I (hover over button so you get range sphere up) to check that none of the physical structure is within 5km and you will NEVER bounce off - I've done hundreds of cynos (lighting, bridging & jumping) and not once have I bounced provided the cyno position was checked with a Salvager I.

Credit for that little gem goes to Granger in Agony Unleashed who has undoubtably saved me billions with the tip.

Edit - oh and what happens when the cyno goes down while you're jumping? You will end up at a point in the solar system between the cyno beacon and the star system you jumped/bridged from. Used to be (still is?) a way of making deep safes with a BOPs/covert cyno, although they wouldn't be so deep now.
Silvetica Dian
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#7 - 2014-03-26 16:44:04 UTC
Chribba wrote:
3) The shield indeed overrides anything else. I believe this isn't the "sliding cyno" reason though since you could never do that anyway (you can slide the ship, but not the cyno itself). The cyno inside POS I think is when you lit a cyno before the shields are up. Eg wit until the POS is coming online and 10 sec before it goes online lit the cyno, cyno will now be inside the shields.

So to counter that, caps will still land outside the shields, and I wouldn't be surprised if CCP added a minimum margin like you said (I never managed to land closer than like 3km, usually I end up 7-10km away).

4) Like Aralyn said, the fastest way to stop from a bounce is to use a mwd in the opposite direction of your movement.

/c


If you light a cyno too close to POS shields then any landing that would have been inside the shield has its distance from the cyno doubled thus landing more than 5km from the cyno.
On stations you need to be just over 5km from the station using actual distance (there is a button on the left of your capacitor to see this) but still within docking range (so your overview distance should read 0km)

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Mario Putzo
#8 - 2014-03-26 16:48:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
1) Yes
2) Yes
3) Yes
4) Yes
5) You head to the center of the sun.(really though just random place in system)
Othran
Route One
#9 - 2014-03-26 16:49:57 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
5) You head to the center of the sun.


You don't unless that has been changed in the last 3 months - not when bridging anyway.
Aerozzz
Afragoi Ltd
#10 - 2014-03-26 18:28:06 UTC
Thanks for the replies!

Othran wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
5) You head to the center of the sun.


You don't unless that has been changed in the last 3 months - not when bridging anyway.


A clarification on this. Does this only happen when bridging? Does it happen when jumping with a capital too? Because I can't reproduce it with a capital (with self destruct) on SiSi, and I'd rather not test it on TQ. :P

Btw, when this happens, do you land with 0 speed at a random spot or are you kind of bumped?

Silvetica Dian wrote:
If you light a cyno too close to POS shields then any landing that would have been inside the shield has its distance from the cyno doubled thus landing more than 5km from the cyno.


Yeap, I think that's the case too, although I haven't seen this documented anywhere (in patch notes, eve wiki, dev post etc). But from the tests on SiSi that seems to be the case. So, I guess it's better to light the cyno ~5km form the forcefield.

Btw, I have heard cases (not seen it myself) of ships (supers) jumping straight inside the POS. My guess is that this could happen with Titans landing very close to shields, due to their extraordinary (ship model) size.

Othran wrote:

ALL ships land within 5km of the cyno when they jump to it. Use a Salvager I (hover over button so you get range sphere up) to check that none of the physical structure is within 5km and you will NEVER bounce off - I've done hundreds of cynos (lighting, bridging & jumping) and not once have I bounced provided the cyno position was checked with a Salvager I.


Hm, not sure how exactly EvE measures distances, but if it calculates distances and collisions based on the sphere / model of your ship and not the center of it you could land 5km from the cyno with your capital, but the sphere / model of your ship collide with some physical object part of the station on the other side. Hence, the 2-3km headroom for the cyno range when lighting cynos on stations.
General Nusense
Doomheim
#11 - 2014-03-26 18:40:36 UTC

1) Yes, You can put a salvager on your cyno ship and use the tactical view to see the area which your ship will appear after jumping.

2) you dont have to be away from the model, just have your cyno in a good place. you can be 0 on a station and still light it. make sure you watch your ship that you jumped, you might have to spam the dock button after jumping.

3) make your cyno 150kms + from the pos tower. if you are moving your cap solo, put a web on your cyno ship to help your capital get into warp faster.



4) small groups, even then you will get some bumping.

5) if your cyno explodes, you will end up at some random place (sun) in the system. if you do end up in the sun, bookmark it.

Made a signature so I am taken seriously on the forums, since thats the only thing they are good for.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#12 - 2014-03-26 18:45:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
Aerozzz wrote:
1) When you jump a capital ship to cyno, the jumping ship will appear in 2.5km-5km sphere from the cyno. Can anyone verify this?

You always appear at 5 km from the cyno beacon (not the cyno ship), but the size of the ship model can make it seem like less.

Note that the cyno beacon appears near the cyno ship in a random location, within about 1.5 km.

Aerozzz wrote:
2) If the above is correct, when you light a cyno on a station, you make sure to be more than 5km away from the station model (I've heard 7-7.5km), to avoid bumping / collision. Is that right? Is the extra distance required due to the way that EvE handles ship and station models?

The ship model is what you mostly have to worry about. The station model is easier to avoid.

There is a great old YouTube video, which I can't find, of a Naglfar nearly bouncing off a Gallente station, because the cyno was lit underneath, and the Nagalfar has a very tall model.
Othran
Route One
#13 - 2014-03-26 18:54:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Othran
Aerozzz wrote:
Thanks for the replies!

Othran wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
5) You head to the center of the sun.


You don't unless that has been changed in the last 3 months - not when bridging anyway.


A clarification on this. Does this only happen when bridging? Does it happen when jumping with a capital too? Because I can't reproduce it with a capital (with self destruct) on SiSi, and I'd rather not test it on TQ. :P


In theory it should happen the same.

You won't be able to test it reliably with a standard cyno IMHO. You're going to need a covert cyno/BOPS or a shitload of patience/loads of alts :)

Edit - bear in mind that you have to initiate bridge/jump within the same server tick that the cyno goes down to make this work.
Aerozzz
Afragoi Ltd
#14 - 2014-03-26 22:29:51 UTC
All of the replies were really helpful! Thanks again!