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New dev blog: Re-inventing trails

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Knug LiDi
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
#181 - 2011-11-28 01:00:33 UTC
Majmuna wrote:
Oh... no.... Shocked
Well, if there is anything that I dislike more in a zero-gravity space than positioning everything according to a single flat plane (how stupid is that?), it is definitely the engine trails in vacuum.

I know EVE is just a game. I know. But, could it PLEASE as well be at least a little bit of a simulation?

I am really disappointed.

And I hope it will be possible to turn this abomination off.

Ugh


Says the player in a game with not 1, not 2, but 3 different modes of faster than light travel.

Belief has been suspended already.

On the upside, the new trails are simply your camera drones identifying the particulate discharge from ship engines and highlighting them on your optical feed to your brain.

If only we could fall into a woman's arms

without falling into her hands
Fred Kyong
Grollwerk
#182 - 2011-11-28 01:46:45 UTC
Akrasjel Lanate wrote:
Meh...Ugh


It´s not about sheep's, I hope
Pak Narhoo
Splinter Foundation
#183 - 2011-11-28 11:11:50 UTC
Majmuna wrote:
Oh... no.... Shocked
Well, if there is anything that I dislike more in a zero-gravity space than positioning everything according to a single flat plane (how stupid is that?), it is definitely the engine trails in vacuum.

I know EVE is just a game. I know. But, could it PLEASE as well be at least a little bit of a simulation?

I am really disappointed.

And I hope it will be possible to turn this abomination off.

Ugh



Your post displays the prime example why we should have a dislike buttan too. Sad
Merch BAYLOR
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#184 - 2011-11-28 11:26:45 UTC
When I started playing EVE these trails were long gone.

However I was disappointed when I undocked for the first time and didn't see the trails I could see in some cool EVE videos...

Now I'll enjoy watching my ships more :D


Thanks!
Meditril
Hoplite Brigade
Ushra'Khan
#185 - 2011-11-28 12:45:39 UTC
This is really eye candy! Good Job!
I hope that drones also have a trail.

Can't wait for seeing this myself.
Rasz Lin
#186 - 2011-11-29 18:41:43 UTC
so does this mean it will be impossible to cloak on a gate without being spotted?
Azgard Majik
Ilium Skies
#187 - 2011-11-30 10:29:12 UTC
Azgard Majik wrote:
Thank you for the hard work on these trails but I'm afraid I have to disappoint. I hated engine trails as it made the game look like a cartoon and was glad when they went. As I seem to be the only one in EVE that thinks this way then I guess I can live with engine trails.


After seeing the new engine trails and much improved over how they used to be I can eat my old quote and say "very nice!". CCP you've done a great job with Crucible. Well done!
Talaan Stardrifter
State War Academy
Caldari State
#188 - 2011-11-30 12:36:12 UTC
The trails are awesome.
Also good to get a look under the hood, too (having recently completed a Ray Tracer for university assignment, it made sense to me =)

I reckon the trails need to be longer though.
Alx Warlord
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#189 - 2011-11-30 15:00:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Alx Warlord
Now that i experienced the trails with a couple of ships i must say that, on fast ships the tip of the trail is rotating with the ship, and this is odd.

How to see it? Take a ceptor, make it orbit something, you will see the tip of the trail moving sideways as it turns....
What is odd about it? make a ceptor collide full speed with something and as it turns 180degrees the trail will also turn and will go trough the colided object...

BTW, i think trails should be a little longer on slow ships then it is now, and a little shorter on faster ships then are now...

Please read these!

New POS system New SOV system
Geksz
The Fountain
#190 - 2011-11-30 15:35:08 UTC
Alx Warlord wrote:
Now that i experienced the trails with a couple of ships i must say that, on fast ships the tip of the trail is rotating with the ship, and this is odd.

How to see it? Take a ceptor, make it orbit something, you will see the tip of the trail moving sideways as it turns....
What is odd about it? make a ceptor collide full speed with something and as it turns 180degrees the trail will also turn and will go trough the colided object...

BTW, i think trails should be a little longer on slow ships then it is now, and a little shorter on faster ships then are now...


I noticed it too. Can this be corrected?
It feels unnatural. Feels like the trails are sticked to my ships butt, like a tail, and i can wave it.
It should stick to the coordinates that i have travelled through, and after i left those coordiantes i shouldn't have any effect on them.
electrostatus
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#191 - 2011-11-30 15:50:01 UTC
....oooooOOOOOOoooo... Not only are the trails explained, but explained how its done via math, thus showing how its really done! This could make an excellent reference. None of this 'then some magic happened' explanation which tells people nothing and indirectly says they're too stupid to understand.

Asteroid Timer: Know exactly when that roid depletes! PI Profit Calculator: calculates your profits and taxes of any PI product depending on how you built them!
Xenial Jesse Taalo
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#192 - 2011-11-30 21:13:30 UTC
I'm very glad they're back but I think they need more work done to make them feel a bit less dull and a bit more tangible.

I'm glad they're optional just so I don't have to face the wrath of those who don't like them. Me personally, I like teh rainbow shinies.
Halika Androm
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#193 - 2011-12-01 10:42:08 UTC
DeBingJos wrote:
Congratulations! The trails look very good.

However it would be nice it they were better vissible when zoomed out. The way they are now on SiSi you can hardly see them when you are zoomed out.

Why do I want to see them when zoomed out?

Simple; they would be very good indicators of speed and direction of everybody on grid.


This.

I fly an inty most of the time and I'm nearly always zoomed out to the point were I can't see the engine trails :(
Xavier Linx
Omni Research
#194 - 2011-12-01 13:29:56 UTC
Heeey! Trails are back! I was sad to see them go. I liked the star shaped ones best since they had a more 'elite' feeling. The final version looked super nice too.

Way to go! Seems like this will become the best update in many years.

The trails and the loot button will probably be my favorite new features in this patch! Big smile
Xenial Jesse Taalo
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#195 - 2011-12-02 19:26:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Xenial Jesse Taalo
I only just read the blog...

Er, it's a bit strange to deliver the maths hype when trails curved fine before. It looks kind of convenient that the 2 screenshots of the old trails don't show them curving. If they did, readers would wonder why the rest of the blog is really talking about it. On top of that, the flaws pointed to it the old trails - again as shown in the 2 screenshots - were both examples of warping and trails not working well together. Crucible turned that off completely anyway.

I'm glad they're back, I'm glad they're now client side as they should be, and I'm glad they render faster than before. These are the real things to celebrate. The points made in the blog about the maths of the curves and the flaws in warp... nothing done that the old trails didn't.

Anyway, don't mean to sound harsh but it was hard to make that point otherwise.

Meanwhile, if the maths is now client side, shouldn't they be more eligible to appear in warp? Was this just an art decision? Just curious, I'm fine either way, but it would be cool to see someone's trails streak across grid as they drop out of warp at insane speeds.

I hope you'll forgive my sharp opening because I would like to ask a few things:
· In the blog, this screenshot - http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/2954/3217/10.jpg - shows the trails being brighter near the engines. But this doesn't happen at all in game. Currently, if you use an AB to reach high speeds then the further away they are, the brighter they are. Somewhat anti-intuitive. Maybe that's unavoidable with the rendering method used but this is one of the bigger factors for upsetting their feel. Without any bright-to-faded, or reversed fading even, they really hit the player as bars of simple and plain colour more than engine trails. Is it not possible to throw some kind of cylinder brightness into the equation. Yeah I probably don't know what I'm talking about here.

· Continuing that however, since it's all a bunch of separate cylinders... can we get some stupidly novel tweaks? Yeah, Ima say it. Rainbow trails. There I said it. I don't mean each trail is a different colour like Nyan Cat, no. I mean each trail changes colour within itself. Or both. :D So many colour ideas. AB trails deepen their colour. MWD trails deepen further plus take on a red tinge. Maybe not good from an artistic point of view. Just suggestions.

· More seriously, introduce "Fuel Additives" that temporarily change the colour of our trails. :D They can work like boosters and hey, they're vanity. Chuck 'em in the Nex store. I'd be all over that. 500 AUR for something that lasts 1 hour on 1 ship. 7,000 AUR to buy the stuff that makes it permanent, for 1 ship. The significance this could add to the mind games; people using permanent coloured trails like poisonous fish, to show they they're pretty hot stuff. People using temporary coloured trails to make their bait look extra tasty. And the hijinx this could bring to scamming, since the only way to tell a ship has the new trails is to watch it fly. People would literally be trading via pod in space. Or instead of this issue and consumable items, rigs. Pure waste-a-rig-slot vanity rigs. Better yet, both. The temporary change is a consumable item. The permanent change is by using a rig. Perhaps the rig fitting doesn't show the colour of the trails, again allowing more scamming upsets and lols. The permanent aqua trails? They're cheap. But the red and black trails (yes black), they're expensive as hell and you watched him fly in space, you thought that was the ship you were getting when you traded back in station. Completely going off on a tangent here I know. But really, trails for Nex. Do it.

· Honestly, anything that can be done to get these trails further away from the plain bands of colour look they currently have would be hugely loved. Most important I think is making them feel more tangible by sorting out the brighter-near-the-jets issue.

If that is done, then I embrace practically any shiny tweak that can be added. The blog talks about animation and refraction... o_O Bring it on! I love the shiny.
Wun NgoWen
Unforeseen Consequences.
Valkyrie Alliance
#196 - 2011-12-03 15:12:21 UTC
Trails make me happy
CCP Mankiller
C C P
C C P Alliance
#197 - 2011-12-07 17:24:58 UTC
Xenial Jesse Taalo wrote:
I only just read the blog...

Er, it's a bit strange to deliver the maths hype when trails curved fine before. It looks kind of convenient that the 2 screenshots of the old trails don't show them curving. If they did, readers would wonder why the rest of the blog is really talking about it. On top of that, the flaws pointed to it the old trails - again as shown in the 2 screenshots - were both examples of warping and trails not working well together. Crucible turned that off completely anyway.

I'm glad they're back, I'm glad they're now client side as they should be, and I'm glad they render faster than before. These are the real things to celebrate. The points made in the blog about the maths of the curves and the flaws in warp... nothing done that the old trails didn't.

Anyway, don't mean to sound harsh but it was hard to make that point otherwise.

Meanwhile, if the maths is now client side, shouldn't they be more eligible to appear in warp? Was this just an art decision? Just curious, I'm fine either way, but it would be cool to see someone's trails streak across grid as they drop out of warp at insane speeds.

I hope you'll forgive my sharp opening because I would like to ask a few things:
· In the blog, this screenshot - http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/2954/3217/10.jpg - shows the trails being brighter near the engines. But this doesn't happen at all in game. Currently, if you use an AB to reach high speeds then the further away they are, the brighter they are. Somewhat anti-intuitive. Maybe that's unavoidable with the rendering method used but this is one of the bigger factors for upsetting their feel. Without any bright-to-faded, or reversed fading even, they really hit the player as bars of simple and plain colour more than engine trails. Is it not possible to throw some kind of cylinder brightness into the equation. Yeah I probably don't know what I'm talking about here.

· Continuing that however, since it's all a bunch of separate cylinders... can we get some stupidly novel tweaks? Yeah, Ima say it. Rainbow trails. There I said it. I don't mean each trail is a different colour like Nyan Cat, no. I mean each trail changes colour within itself. Or both. :D So many colour ideas. AB trails deepen their colour. MWD trails deepen further plus take on a red tinge. Maybe not good from an artistic point of view. Just suggestions.

· More seriously, introduce "Fuel Additives" that temporarily change the colour of our trails. :D They can work like boosters and hey, they're vanity. Chuck 'em in the Nex store. I'd be all over that. 500 AUR for something that lasts 1 hour on 1 ship. 7,000 AUR to buy the stuff that makes it permanent, for 1 ship. The significance this could add to the mind games; people using permanent coloured trails like poisonous fish, to show they they're pretty hot stuff. People using temporary coloured trails to make their bait look extra tasty. And the hijinx this could bring to scamming, since the only way to tell a ship has the new trails is to watch it fly. People would literally be trading via pod in space. Or instead of this issue and consumable items, rigs. Pure waste-a-rig-slot vanity rigs. Better yet, both. The temporary change is a consumable item. The permanent change is by using a rig. Perhaps the rig fitting doesn't show the colour of the trails, again allowing more scamming upsets and lols. The permanent aqua trails? They're cheap. But the red and black trails (yes black), they're expensive as hell and you watched him fly in space, you thought that was the ship you were getting when you traded back in station. Completely going off on a tangent here I know. But really, trails for Nex. Do it.

· Honestly, anything that can be done to get these trails further away from the plain bands of colour look they currently have would be hugely loved. Most important I think is making them feel more tangible by sorting out the brighter-near-the-jets issue.

If that is done, then I embrace practically any shiny tweak that can be added. The blog talks about animation and refraction... o_O Bring it on! I love the shiny.


Hm, but the point is: I HAD to go through all this math to make the trails render faster/perform better! There was no way I could've "just" made the old system faster...

And yes, you are right, the reason the trails fade out when you go into warp was an art decision. Maybe I will re-open that discussion. Also a good idea is changing the trail when you use MWD or AB.

...but do people really, really want "rainbow trails" ????
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#198 - 2011-12-07 17:34:21 UTC
CCP Mankiller wrote:
Hm, but the point is: I HAD to go through all this math to make the trails render faster/perform better! There was no way I could've "just" made the old system faster...

And yes, you are right, the reason the trails fade out when you go into warp was an art decision. Maybe I will re-open that discussion. Also a good idea is changing the trail when you use MWD or AB.

...but do people really, really want "rainbow trails" ????


How about trails that act as ejecta from the back of the ship instead of streamers attached to the ship? Right now it's like they're stapled there... you make a tight turn and the trail tries to follow you instead of remaining where you were. To have the effect look right, it should be a stream that's always shooting straight out of the back of the ship, even when you turn, and the particles of the stream will remain in space, spreading and fading out where they were.

Of course, this opens up the whole issue of something giving away your position when you cloak...

Ugh, can't really win in this.

I did have one wierd trail bug... while warping to my pos in a prophecy, I tabbed over to a different character for a bit then back to this one. The prophecy was parked at the pos with the engine trail sticking out of it's non-moving butt back in the direction I came from. Since the ship had "settled" by then that was a 45 degree angle up and behind it.

Was very odd looking.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Jim Luc
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#199 - 2011-12-07 17:42:05 UTC
CCP Mankiller wrote:
Xenial Jesse Taalo wrote:
I only just read the blog...

Er, it's a bit strange to deliver the maths hype when trails curved fine before. It looks kind of convenient that the 2 screenshots of the old trails don't show them curving. If they did, readers would wonder why the rest of the blog is really talking about it. On top of that, the flaws pointed to it the old trails - again as shown in the 2 screenshots - were both examples of warping and trails not working well together. Crucible turned that off completely anyway.

I'm glad they're back, I'm glad they're now client side as they should be, and I'm glad they render faster than before. These are the real things to celebrate. The points made in the blog about the maths of the curves and the flaws in warp... nothing done that the old trails didn't.

Anyway, don't mean to sound harsh but it was hard to make that point otherwise.

Meanwhile, if the maths is now client side, shouldn't they be more eligible to appear in warp? Was this just an art decision? Just curious, I'm fine either way, but it would be cool to see someone's trails streak across grid as they drop out of warp at insane speeds.

I hope you'll forgive my sharp opening because I would like to ask a few things:
· In the blog, this screenshot - http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/2954/3217/10.jpg - shows the trails being brighter near the engines. But this doesn't happen at all in game. Currently, if you use an AB to reach high speeds then the further away they are, the brighter they are. Somewhat anti-intuitive. Maybe that's unavoidable with the rendering method used but this is one of the bigger factors for upsetting their feel. Without any bright-to-faded, or reversed fading even, they really hit the player as bars of simple and plain colour more than engine trails. Is it not possible to throw some kind of cylinder brightness into the equation. Yeah I probably don't know what I'm talking about here.

· Continuing that however, since it's all a bunch of separate cylinders... can we get some stupidly novel tweaks? Yeah, Ima say it. Rainbow trails. There I said it. I don't mean each trail is a different colour like Nyan Cat, no. I mean each trail changes colour within itself. Or both. :D So many colour ideas. AB trails deepen their colour. MWD trails deepen further plus take on a red tinge. Maybe not good from an artistic point of view. Just suggestions.

· More seriously, introduce "Fuel Additives" that temporarily change the colour of our trails. :D They can work like boosters and hey, they're vanity. Chuck 'em in the Nex store. I'd be all over that. 500 AUR for something that lasts 1 hour on 1 ship. 7,000 AUR to buy the stuff that makes it permanent, for 1 ship. The significance this could add to the mind games; people using permanent coloured trails like poisonous fish, to show they they're pretty hot stuff. People using temporary coloured trails to make their bait look extra tasty. And the hijinx this could bring to scamming, since the only way to tell a ship has the new trails is to watch it fly. People would literally be trading via pod in space. Or instead of this issue and consumable items, rigs. Pure waste-a-rig-slot vanity rigs. Better yet, both. The temporary change is a consumable item. The permanent change is by using a rig. Perhaps the rig fitting doesn't show the colour of the trails, again allowing more scamming upsets and lols. The permanent aqua trails? They're cheap. But the red and black trails (yes black), they're expensive as hell and you watched him fly in space, you thought that was the ship you were getting when you traded back in station. Completely going off on a tangent here I know. But really, trails for Nex. Do it.

· Honestly, anything that can be done to get these trails further away from the plain bands of colour look they currently have would be hugely loved. Most important I think is making them feel more tangible by sorting out the brighter-near-the-jets issue.

If that is done, then I embrace practically any shiny tweak that can be added. The blog talks about animation and refraction... o_O Bring it on! I love the shiny.


Hm, but the point is: I HAD to go through all this math to make the trails render faster/perform better! There was no way I could've "just" made the old system faster...

And yes, you are right, the reason the trails fade out when you go into warp was an art decision. Maybe I will re-open that discussion. Also a good idea is changing the trail when you use MWD or AB.

...but do people really, really want "rainbow trails" ????


No rainbow trails please, the sensor boost glowy-sparkle effect is bad enough! Perhaps when we get that Hello Kitty Kestral and it could have rainbow trails and fire pink arrows of furious love...

To be serious though, changing the effect slightly for warp would be good, and changing the effect for both engines and trails for afterburners (should give us the impression our engines just went to ELEVEN), and adding a warp-tunnel type effect to MWD with the same engines that are used in regular warp. Perhaps the tunnel effect or slight electric charges that move past the ship that's got its MWD fired up, and can show only when going top speed or something.

And while I've got your attention, please change the sensor boost to be something less sparkly. Perhaps a UI icon in the overview. It's quite funny when you have a blob of supercarriers that are all glittering and glowing like elves from Lord of the Rings.

Carry on - I'm really loving this new direction and the expansion is really nice!!

[/rant]
Jim Luc
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#200 - 2011-12-07 17:47:11 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:
CCP Mankiller wrote:
Hm, but the point is: I HAD to go through all this math to make the trails render faster/perform better! There was no way I could've "just" made the old system faster...

And yes, you are right, the reason the trails fade out when you go into warp was an art decision. Maybe I will re-open that discussion. Also a good idea is changing the trail when you use MWD or AB.

...but do people really, really want "rainbow trails" ????


How about trails that act as ejecta from the back of the ship instead of streamers attached to the ship? Right now it's like they're stapled there... you make a tight turn and the trail tries to follow you instead of remaining where you were. To have the effect look right, it should be a stream that's always shooting straight out of the back of the ship, even when you turn, and the particles of the stream will remain in space, spreading and fading out where they were.

Of course, this opens up the whole issue of something giving away your position when you cloak...

Ugh, can't really win in this.

I did have one wierd trail bug... while warping to my pos in a prophecy, I tabbed over to a different character for a bit then back to this one. The prophecy was parked at the pos with the engine trail sticking out of it's non-moving butt back in the direction I came from. Since the ship had "settled" by then that was a 45 degree angle up and behind it.

Was very odd looking.



I really like this idea actually, and for cloak you just eliminate the trail just like it would be eliminate the engines.

But having the trails look a bit more like contrails might be a bit more realistic, and you could explain that it's ionized space dust-particles that's just getting charged and glowing because of fast moving thruster-jet-thingies. If you've ever played Ace Combat they do it quite well with the engine contrails, the missiles, and then on the tips of your wings as you slice through the air. All gives a great sense of speed.