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Icylce
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2881 - 2014-03-26 15:19:17 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Would that 3rd party not vphave to confirm consent from you and the pereon you are calling in order to do so?
Firstly consent was given as far as I can tell, secondly you're blindly ignoring that in real life there are 3rd parties who can, and often do record private phone calls without either parties consent; you may even have heard of these 3rd parties, or voted for them, they're called U.S. government.


Fixed it for u.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#2882 - 2014-03-26 15:19:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Icylce wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
[---

Just out of curiosity, do you think that 3rd parties have a right to record your telephone conversations without your consent?

TS isn't a private phone line. Blink

Its not the line thats private it is the conversation.

Then perhaps you should not have that private conversation on an app that has a built in record function SPECIFICALLY so that those conversations can be recorded and shared.

Obtuse arguments like this only seve to invalidate any point you folks are trying to make.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#2883 - 2014-03-26 15:20:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Salvos Rhoska wrote:

1) There is no evidence that the victim is even in the channel at the time it is said.
2) There is no evidence that the victim even hears that being said.
3) There is no expression of consent on the part of the victim to being recorded.
4) There is no implied consent on the part of the victim for being recorded, because it is not specifically stated by the recorder.
5) There is no expression of consent to distribution of the recording.


1: There is no evidence to the contrary either
2: See above
3: See below
4: Implied consent, legal dictionary definition as you're so fond of throwing out legal terms.
5: See above.

Icylce wrote:
Fixed it for u.
LOL If only it was just the US government.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#2884 - 2014-03-26 15:20:24 UTC
Icylce wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Would that 3rd party not vphave to confirm consent from you and the pereon you are calling in order to do so?
Firstly consent was given as far as I can tell, secondly you're blindly ignoring that in real life there are 3rd parties who can, and often do record private phone calls without either parties consent; you may even have heard of these 3rd parties, or voted for them, they're called U.S. government.


Fixed it for u.

Wow, if you think this only happens in the US do YOU have a lot to learn. Big smileBig smileBig smile

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Salvos Rhoska
#2885 - 2014-03-26 15:21:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Crumplecorn wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
1) There is no evidence that the victim is even in the channel at the time it is said.
2) There is no evidence that the victim even hears that being said.
3) There is no expression of consent on the part of the victim to being recorded.
4) There is no implied consent on the part of the victim for being recorded, because it is not specifically stated by the recorder.
5) There is no expression of consent to distribution of the recording.
Please provide a link to the recording you are talking about, becuase it is obviously not the one in the blog post being discussed.


It applies to Sohkar's recording.

None of the above can be confirmed from that recording.
At the end, he does say "I know I am being recorded and this will be distributed", but that does not suffice to make it legal on the part of the recorder. These things have to be properly confirmed right at the start.

I realise this may seem silly to some people, but that is what most laws are on this matter.
If you don't have the above confirmed from EVERY participant in the recording, it is illegal.

And this is exactly what is at the root of the problem with Erotica1's out of game activities.
What laws govern them? Who is ensuring that the legal rights of the participants are being guaranteed?
In-game CCP does that. But what about in T3?

You can't act lawlessly just cos you are on a TS server.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Malcolm Shinhwa
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2886 - 2014-03-26 15:21:04 UTC
Upde wrote:
Batelle wrote:
Katkon Darnok wrote:
...UNLESS you have reason to believe that the mix of people on the forums is unrepresentative of the feelings/moral compass of the community at large, in which case you could argue that the thread is suffering from selection bias. I suspect that's a weak argument, though.


Have you ever actually spoken to an Eve player in-game? The forums are absolutely and unequivocally not representative. All this sample represents is the people that already post in GD, and I can tell you for my first 5 years in game, even when I was an active forum poster, I never read GD.

Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:

Ero1 and equivalent cronies are just trying to break your EVE, and nothing more.


So were the goons, but CCP didn't ban them (despite repeated calls to), and now they're model citizens. And they literally were trying to break and destroy Eve.


But the goons did it differently they actually used the game mechanics in the game.

Hulkageddon, Burn Jita, Ice interdictions, corp recruitment scams, suicide ganks, corporate espionage, thats all in the EVE universe, what happened in that recording in certain points was not in keeping with being "in the universe" or even the game. They are 2 different scenarios, the only real out of game faux pas they got pulled for was mittani gate in 2012 which got rinsed in public exactly the same way as this. So i;d say comparing this to the GSF in game actions is not even in the same ballpark.


So if Erotica 1 had used Eve Voice instead of TS everything would be jake right?

[i]"The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in defense. The sword is more important than the shield and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental[/i]."
Shinya Shazih
Markarian Society
#2887 - 2014-03-26 15:23:21 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
CCP can ban whoever they want, whenever they want.

Play this out loud on speakers at the next Fanfest.
Title it as "Emergent Gameplay" and proudly present in audio as an example of the finest EVE currently has to offer.

I double dare you.


Yeah where's ccp's promotional video Emergent Gameplay featuring Erotica1's sound cloud?
Maybe the Devs could play the different characters with funny hats
Mario Putzo
#2888 - 2014-03-26 15:23:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
http://themittani.com/features/alod-go-back-wow

Should we also ban the people behind this? Or is it ok because they didn't use TS3?
Jake Warbird
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#2889 - 2014-03-26 15:23:38 UTC
I'm beginning to think that Internet Lawyer degree I have was a waste of money.

Sugar Von MurdererTits : Jake Warbird gets my vote for most intriguing and attractive male character in Eve.
Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
#2890 - 2014-03-26 15:24:02 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
None of the above can be confirmed from that recording.
At the end, he does say "I know I am being recorded and this will be distributed",
QED.

These things are confirmed at the start so that anything said can be kept/distributed, rather than risking disagreement part way though.

Witty Image - Stream

Not Liking this post hurts my RL feelings and will be considered harassment
PinkPanter
Valhalla Drinking Team
#2891 - 2014-03-26 15:24:42 UTC
Malcolm Shinhwa wrote:
Upde wrote:
Batelle wrote:
Katkon Darnok wrote:
...UNLESS you have reason to believe that the mix of people on the forums is unrepresentative of the feelings/moral compass of the community at large, in which case you could argue that the thread is suffering from selection bias. I suspect that's a weak argument, though.


Have you ever actually spoken to an Eve player in-game? The forums are absolutely and unequivocally not representative. All this sample represents is the people that already post in GD, and I can tell you for my first 5 years in game, even when I was an active forum poster, I never read GD.

Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:

Ero1 and equivalent cronies are just trying to break your EVE, and nothing more.


So were the goons, but CCP didn't ban them (despite repeated calls to), and now they're model citizens. And they literally were trying to break and destroy Eve.


But the goons did it differently they actually used the game mechanics in the game.

Hulkageddon, Burn Jita, Ice interdictions, corp recruitment scams, suicide ganks, corporate espionage, thats all in the EVE universe, what happened in that recording in certain points was not in keeping with being "in the universe" or even the game. They are 2 different scenarios, the only real out of game faux pas they got pulled for was mittani gate in 2012 which got rinsed in public exactly the same way as this. So i;d say comparing this to the GSF in game actions is not even in the same ballpark.


So if Erotica 1 had used Eve Voice instead of TS everything would be jake right?


He would be banned off the bat that's why (and they stated it many times in this thread) they took all neccesary precautions to dodge bannhammer.
Drakast
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#2892 - 2014-03-26 15:24:43 UTC
144 pages later and ive just proved to myself i will m*sturbate to anything.

if i told you i was psychotic, deranged and incarcerated for more than 20 years, for terrible crimes against society and i play this game every day from my jail cell, are you all going to shout and moan til i get banned? or does it already say somewhere that prisoners are not allowed to play eve?

there is a line to be drawn and its down to you lot to draw it. if you think ero deserves punishment then go out and form up a hell camp, band together and make his eve life short and pain filled

stop asking ccp to nanny you anymore than it has to. we live in the sandbox, if you dont like whats going on sort it out yourselves.

ero went too far (from what ive seen on this monster thread) sort him out. simple.

end of thread
Desivo Delta Visseroff
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2893 - 2014-03-26 15:25:06 UTC
Mario Putzo wrote:
http://themittani.com/features/alod-go-back-wow

Should we also ban the people behind this?



Derailment detectedAttention

I was hunting for sick loot, but all I could get my hands on were 50 corpses[:|]..............[:=d]
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#2894 - 2014-03-26 15:25:22 UTC
Batelle wrote:


So were the goons, but CCP didn't ban them (despite repeated calls to), and now they're model citizens. And they literally were trying to break and destroy Eve.


Burn Jita, Interdictions, etc, were not aimed at any particular individual.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Salvos Rhoska
#2895 - 2014-03-26 15:25:40 UTC
Crumplecorn wrote:
These things are confirmed at the start so that anything said can be kept/distributed, rather than risking disagreement part way though.


I'm sorry, but they are not, for the reasons I already outlined.

I know the perpetrators like to THINK they got this covered, but they don't. Sorry, thats just a legal fact.
They half ass it. You have to confirm the consent both for recording AND distribution.

Neither of that happens in the recording.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
stoicfaux
#2896 - 2014-03-26 15:25:55 UTC
Upde wrote:


torture / ransom / forcing are not even relevant words, they never were and never will be in this case. However you bet your arse that when it gets written up in the media those words will be there and then there will be hell to pay. The outside world will look on this and treat it in exactly the same way as those people that smack talk people on face book after their friend has died. The outside people cannot differentiate between those 2 cases.


That leaves CCP between a rock and a hard place. I woudl think this whole debacle boils down to a damage limitation exercise for CCP and a media management / community management exercise.

Pretty much this ^^. This isn't about what is legal or illegal. It isn't about whether the ToS was broken. It's not about how stupid people can be, or whether Erotica is running an "extreme" game/reality show or is just humiliating people for personal entertainment.

It's all about public perception from both the general public and the EVE community, specifically: "if trolls on the internet behaved in the real world as they did online, they would get beaten in the real world." Erotica1 appears to have crossed the boundary between "it's the internet, what did you expect?" to "that's horrible, how could someone do such a thing to another person?"

Scamming, tear extraction, humiliation, etc., is fine "in-game" (i.e. "on the internet.") It's NOT fine when it crosses into the "real world," thereby forcing polite society to take a stand and pass judgement on you as a human being. EVE, a game full of sociopathic players, doesn't need to be linked with real world sociopathic behavior in real people.


tl;dr - Sociopathic behavior by players in-game is fine because it's a game. Sociopathic behavior in the real world against real people is not fine and will get us harshly judged by society.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Mario Putzo
#2897 - 2014-03-26 15:26:07 UTC
Desivo Delta Visseroff wrote:
Mario Putzo wrote:
http://themittani.com/features/alod-go-back-wow

Should we also ban the people behind this?



Derailment detectedAttention


No just trying to find the line in the sand where we determine who and who should not be banned.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#2898 - 2014-03-26 15:26:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Batelle
Upde wrote:
Batelle wrote:
What "media pressure" are you referring to or expecting to appear? There is no shitstorm. There is only a threadnaught.


the same bile that happened after fanfest. The media will likely rake that up as a little reminder and then say that this behaviour has been allowed to proliferate and then use bonus room antics to further support their case. Which they of course would not be able to if it was never made public. You see thats where this all falls appart, its the old saying "its all a bit of fun untill someone loses an eye".


The fanfest incident is not really comparable. There are about half a dozen really good reasons why we shouldn't expect the reaction to this to be at all comparable to what happened at/after fanfest.

Upde wrote:
are any of those parts directed at the in game character or the person driving the character.

You see this is why the grey line of in game / outgame meta gaming has been crossed and why there is going to be more than this threadnought with regards to a shitstorm.


I'm sure a line of some kind was crossed somewhere. But that doesn't mean CCP should do anything about it. Also, if I play eve with someone regularly because they're in my corp, and I take a dislike to that person, I'm definitely disliking the person, not the character. Eve is a game played by persons. We as RL people are literally game content.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#2899 - 2014-03-26 15:26:21 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Casinos have specific laws and regulations governing their behavior, as well as all other laws which apply.

You *do* understand there is a massive difference in scale between any casino and Erotica 1's operation? Casinos are regulated because of this scale.. as opposed to a card game at your uncle's house (which probably sees more real life dollars than a bonus round with Erotica 1).

Your uncle's card game wouldn't be regulated, and neither should Erotica 1.

/蘭

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
Salvos Rhoska
#2900 - 2014-03-26 15:27:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Sibyyl wrote:
Casinos are regulated because of this scale.

False.

And setting up gambling in your own home with other people is infact illegal in many jurisdictions, and even if allowed, is under strict provisions.

Everything is regulated. Including how you can and cannot behave on TS, and what you can and cannot do there.

There are laws covering all of this stuff. Mostly just nobody bothers to enforce them. But the laws are still there.
The same applies to all these "grey areas" that Erotica1 is exploiting. They are not actually grey areas at all.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent