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Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#2861 - 2014-03-26 15:06:38 UTC
Sentamon wrote:


In America we have a long and proud history of scamming and emotional distress. For example we traded useless beads to the natives for all their land knowing they in their culture they had no concept of property ownership.


Those beads were considered valuable to them.

What would the natives have needed actual money for as they had existed without it for millenia ? Were they supposed to buy tea with it ?

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882

Shinya Shazih
Markarian Society
#2862 - 2014-03-26 15:07:07 UTC
tiberiusric wrote:
I have been playing this game for many many years now, and have never really been comfortable with the whole scamming thing. I think it spoils the game and actually drives people away. Scamming as become so prevalent in Eve its over taken the good aspects of it. Look at jita every single post in chat is a scam.

I dont like the fact that goonswarm do this constantly to a point its part of their culture, and sometimes the way they do it is a little creepy and weird and wrong.

But this is a whole new level, and its just not about a scam, its cyber bullying, torture at is very worse. I am sure this is certainly not the first case of this and its happening to others by other eve players.

You can hear from the start where this was going, and Erotica1 sounds really creepy tbh. They carried on for 2 hours, even when they knew the guy was getting upset, this is when you stop. Actually it should of never started.

This is for me the real darkside of eve, and where scamming takes it past gameplay. I have never played or seen a game that allows this to happen, or even breeds that type of person. The very idea of scamming has created these people, and CCP certainly has to take brunt of the blame for this as they endorse this type of behavior, but its gone a a step too far. as stated I am sure there are many Erotica1s lurking about.

This is just not scamming, its parasidic and morally wrong. Personally i would of called the police and given them the recording as people are now getting prosecuted for this type of thing. What gets me most is that there have been a few cases on twitter etc where people have committed suicide because of people like this. What if this guy did?

CCP has a duty just like twitter and others to protect its users.

However being a veteran player of this game, even after the time an investment i have made, every moral fibre in me is twitching. I am now seriously thinking do i want to pay, play or be a part of this game, ccp and its community if this is something that is happening to people. I certainly do not want to be associated with an organisation or game that endorses such actions and game play anymore.



i'll quote that regularly.
Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
#2863 - 2014-03-26 15:07:35 UTC
Upde wrote:
" Early in the proceedings, the victim admits to having a minor speech impediment that quickly becomes apparent. One of the instigators pounces on this and suggests that any word the victim cannot pronounce properly, he be made to look up the definition for and read that definition as well. "

" His wife has to intervene and try to calm him down... unsuccessfully. She retires from the proceedings, apparently having a panic attack."
Having listened to the recording, both these summaries are quite misleading.

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Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#2864 - 2014-03-26 15:07:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Batelle
Salvos Rhoska wrote:

If you wish and think you can do better, then you represent by analogy, or give an example of an actual case.


Look back about 50 pages, have fun with that. Offering someone a lot of money to humiliate themselves is not extortion. Asking someone politely (if disingenuously) to do it for free is definitely not extortion.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.

Salvos Rhoska
#2865 - 2014-03-26 15:08:52 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
[---

Just out of curiosity, do you think that 3rd parties have a right to record your telephone conversations without your consent?

TS isn't a private phone line. Blink

Well, it is, if set to be.

But on any phonecall, there could be an additional 3rd party on the other-end recording the interchange.
(Not tinhatting that there is).

Would that 3rd party not vphave to confirm consent from you and the pereon you are calling in order to do so?
Upde
Upde Harris Industries
#2866 - 2014-03-26 15:09:38 UTC
Kaivar Lancer wrote:
Basically we have a degenerate gambler (sohkar) threatening to attack the card dealer (Erotica 1) after voluntarily risking too much spaceship money and losing it in a game (no different than a casino).

And somehow Erotica 1 is at fault... ? Courts have thrown out cases when degenerate gamblers try to sue back their losses from casinos.


its more than that

the transcript proves its more than that. Scaming is about fleecing an in game character, this took it one step further and actually crossed into real life stuff. you only need to listen to some parts of the recording to understand that.

The fact that they hone in on one of his IRL weknesses, the fact they say soemthing with regards to his wife having a panic attack / going into hysterics. At that point it ceased to be a scam for ISK even and became somethin darker and more malevolent.

I don't think anyone here gives a crap about the fact he lost x billion ISK, its what happened after the con was completed that is the issue here.
Fade Toblack
Per.ly
The 20 Minuters
#2867 - 2014-03-26 15:09:54 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
those items never belonged to him in the first place. They are property of CCP, as are all in game assets.


Care to contract me all the CCP-owned stuff that appears in the wallets and hangars you have access to in-game then if it means nothing?
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#2868 - 2014-03-26 15:09:58 UTC
Katkon Darnok wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
While I find this distasteful, this is a non issue.

The question kept being asked "What would your mother or grandmother say if they heard this recording"?

That's easy.

They would simply ask why the man was complying with those ridiculous requests, and why he didn't simply say no and leave.

This entire conversation should begin and end with that simple question.


Really, that's what your family would ask? My parents would have likely confiscated my computer, banned me from playing computer games (if I had done this as a teen), and made me give all the assets/ISK back (and likely then some). Worse still, I would have lost their trust and clearly disappointed them. In short, they would have been ashamed and embarrassed about my actions. But they were decent people. Honest and trustworthy to a fault, with a very strong moral compass.

That would be entirely appropriate, if you were the one taunting this individual.

That's not the case, not the question asked, and frankly has nothing to do with what was said.

Read first, post later.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#2869 - 2014-03-26 15:11:11 UTC
Noting what you've said at the end:
Lucretia DeWinter wrote:
I'm not saying that what happened here is of the same seriousness of some of the real life incidents like Danny Chen, but that CCP should clarify that scamming and despicable behaviour is only acceptable within the confines of the game.


Wanted to respond to this:
Quote:
It's interesting people have used the term 'hazing.' Hazing is officially sanctioned in every organisation I can think of as it was getting out of hand. definition: involves inflicting pain or encouraging others to engage in illegal, harmful, demeaning or dangerous acts. In employment, education, the military etc Hazing is explicitly singled out as inexcusable for illegal, discriminatory or demeaning behaviour.

All of the examples you've used for hazing are for career, social acceptance, or a combination of both. Sohkar didn't participate for any of these reasons.. he wanted more ISK. More specifically, he at least wanted ISK he contributed which is worth about $30 real life dollars. Erotica 1 isn't dangling Sohkar's career in front of him. Sohkar isn't really motivated to be accepted as Erotica 1's friend. Erotica 1 isn't even scamming hundreds or thousands of real worth dollars's worth. All Sohkar wants is more ISK, which to him may not be psychologically trivial.. but in the scope of things it is very trivial (compared to say.. somebody's losses at a real life casino).

I think this is why these analogies are exaggerating the incident. This is about $30. This doesn't have anything to do with Sohkar's personal stuff, except his DIGNITY.

Sohkar voluntarily surrendered his dignity. Not just once, but over and over and over again.

We shouldn't have guidelines to protect decisions like that. In EVE, in which scamming is acceptable (which is very different from real life), there is even LESS of a reason to have guidelines to protect decisions like the kind Sohkar made.

/蘭

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.

Salvos Rhoska
#2870 - 2014-03-26 15:11:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Kaivar Lancer wrote:
----

Casinos have specific laws and regulations governing their behavior, as well as all other laws which apply.

Not to mention license requirements.

And remember, Erotica1s Bonus Room happens outside the game, and with assets he does not actually own (CCP does).
Malcolm Shinhwa
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2871 - 2014-03-26 15:12:46 UTC
Katkon Darnok wrote:
Malcolm Shinhwa wrote:
Katkon Darnok wrote:

288 = statistical significance (actually, >32 makes for a statistically significant sample size). So, this thread is probably very representative of how the community feels - at least those that KNOW about the issue. And, at the risk of insulting your intelligence (not my intent), pls do bear in mind that most EVE players are probably not active on the forums, and probably only a small number of those that are have seen or are following this thread.


LordOfDespair says: "If the majority of the players and nonplayers..."
Del0r replies: "The majority of eve players ahve hardly even heard of the forums..."
LordOfDespair counters: "This 137 page thread..."

Offering a 137 page threadnaught as proof that a majority (thats 51%) of the Eve player base has registered an opinion is clearly wrong when only 288 people of the 500k or so subscribers have expressed an opinion. Its still not a majority of the 25,000 people online in Eve right now. I know the thread is moving fast and all, but I was not incorrect in any way.


Technically, the sample size in this thread is statistically significant and so therefore CAN be taken as being indicative of how the community at large feels, UNLESS you have reason to believe that the mix of people on the forums is unrepresentative of the feelings/moral compass of the community at large, in which case you could argue that the thread is suffering from selection bias. I suspect that's a weak argument, though.


This is becoming more frustrating than the actual thread topic. I made no such argument about the moral compass, feelings, body weight, or size of the higgs bosun. LordOfDespair says the majority of players... Del0r replies the majority hasn't heard of the forums, LordOfDespair offers a threadnaught on those forums as proof a majority has. But that thread only contains 288 individual posters which is clearly not a majority of Eve players.

Claiming otherwise is like saying 51% of Americans voted for their current president. 51% of Americans didn't. 51% of Americans who showed up to vote did.

[i]"The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in defense. The sword is more important than the shield and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental[/i]."

Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#2872 - 2014-03-26 15:12:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Would that 3rd party not vphave to confirm consent from you and the pereon you are calling in order to do so?
Firstly consent was given as far as I can tell, secondly you're blindly ignoring that in real life there are 3rd parties who can, and often do record private phone calls without either parties consent; you may even have heard of these 3rd parties, or voted for them, they're called governments.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#2873 - 2014-03-26 15:13:06 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
[---

Just out of curiosity, do you think that 3rd parties have a right to record your telephone conversations without your consent?

TS isn't a private phone line. Blink

Well, it is, if set to be.

But on any phonecall, there could be an additional 3rd party on the other-end recording the interchange.
(Not tinhatting that there is).

Would that 3rd party not vphave to confirm consent from you and the pereon you are calling in order to do so?

You're reaching.

Jumping on someone's internet based TS, which has a recording function built in, is not the same as tapping someones private phone conversations.

You're only making yourself look silly with bad analogies.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#2874 - 2014-03-26 15:13:55 UTC
Katkon Darnok wrote:
...UNLESS you have reason to believe that the mix of people on the forums is unrepresentative of the feelings/moral compass of the community at large, in which case you could argue that the thread is suffering from selection bias. I suspect that's a weak argument, though.


Have you ever actually spoken to an Eve player in-game? The forums are absolutely and unequivocally not representative. All this sample represents is the people that already post in GD, and I can tell you for my first 5 years in game, even when I was an active forum poster, I never read GD.

Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:

Ero1 and equivalent cronies are just trying to break your EVE, and nothing more.


So were the goons, but CCP didn't ban them (despite repeated calls to), and now they're model citizens. And they literally were trying to break and destroy Eve.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.

Upde
Upde Harris Industries
#2875 - 2014-03-26 15:13:56 UTC
Crumplecorn wrote:
Upde wrote:
" Early in the proceedings, the victim admits to having a minor speech impediment that quickly becomes apparent. One of the instigators pounces on this and suggests that any word the victim cannot pronounce properly, he be made to look up the definition for and read that definition as well. "

" His wife has to intervene and try to calm him down... unsuccessfully. She retires from the proceedings, apparently having a panic attack."
Having listened to the recording, both these summaries are quite misleading.


its down to interpretation and how it would be taken by an outside non EVE type. That's where we need to be worried. For all us EVE vets / diehards we know what happened here, but you take that to an average non EVE type and the interpretation that gets spun will make it nigh on impossible for CCP to defend or refute. It happened, things were said, they were said / acted out as part of game or in the name of a game (EVE) and they can't be undone.

So now its out there its up to CCP to defend / refute / respond or what ever their PR machine does to ensure the integrity of the company and the game in the eyes of the non EVE community. That is not going to be easy especially if CCP want to keep anykind of reputable demeanour after the dust settles.
Icylce
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2876 - 2014-03-26 15:14:08 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
[---

Just out of curiosity, do you think that 3rd parties have a right to record your telephone conversations without your consent?

TS isn't a private phone line. Blink

Its not the line thats private it is the conversation.
Salvos Rhoska
#2877 - 2014-03-26 15:15:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Would that 3rd party not vphave to confirm consent from you and the pereon you are calling in order to do so?
Firstly consent was given as far as I can tell, secondly you're blindly ignoring that in real life there are 3rd parties who can, and often do record phone calls without either parties consent; you may even have heard of these third parties, or voted for them, they're called governments.


I have heard of them. I have not heard of any EVE player being a government or having that right.

And no, consent is not confirmed.

1) There is no evidence that the victim is even in the channel at the time it is said.
2) There is no evidence that the victim even hears that being said.
3) There is no expression of consent on the part of the victim to being recorded.
4) There is no implied consent on the part of the victim for being recorded, because it is not specifically stated by the recorder.
5) There is no expression of consent to distribution of the recording.

If you don't confirm the above from every participant in the recording, the recording is infact illegal.
Thats just how it is. That is how arbitrary the law is on matters such as this, and in general.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#2878 - 2014-03-26 15:17:41 UTC
Fade Toblack wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
those items never belonged to him in the first place. They are property of CCP, as are all in game assets.


Care to contract me all the CCP-owned stuff that appears in the wallets and hangars you have access to in-game then if it means nothing?

I never said they mean nothing, I said they were not his property... which is entirely accurate.

He literally only lost imaginary pixels that were not his to begin with.

It is a setback to his success in a video game, nothing more. While that may understandably upset him a bit, he (and we all) should keep this firmly in the correct perspective.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
#2879 - 2014-03-26 15:18:14 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
1) There is no evidence that the victim is even in the channel at the time it is said.
2) There is no evidence that the victim even hears that being said.
3) There is no expression of consent on the part of the victim to being recorded.
4) There is no implied consent on the part of the victim for being recorded, because it is not specifically stated by the recorder.
5) There is no expression of consent to distribution of the recording.
Please provide a link to the recording you are talking about, becuase it is obviously not the one in the blog post being discussed.

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Upde
Upde Harris Industries
#2880 - 2014-03-26 15:18:24 UTC
Batelle wrote:
Katkon Darnok wrote:
...UNLESS you have reason to believe that the mix of people on the forums is unrepresentative of the feelings/moral compass of the community at large, in which case you could argue that the thread is suffering from selection bias. I suspect that's a weak argument, though.


Have you ever actually spoken to an Eve player in-game? The forums are absolutely and unequivocally not representative. All this sample represents is the people that already post in GD, and I can tell you for my first 5 years in game, even when I was an active forum poster, I never read GD.

Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:

Ero1 and equivalent cronies are just trying to break your EVE, and nothing more.


So were the goons, but CCP didn't ban them (despite repeated calls to), and now they're model citizens. And they literally were trying to break and destroy Eve.


But the goons did it differently they actually used the game mechanics in the game.

Hulkageddon, Burn Jita, Ice interdictions, corp recruitment scams, suicide ganks, corporate espionage, thats all in the EVE universe, what happened in that recording in certain points was not in keeping with being "in the universe" or even the game. They are 2 different scenarios, the only real out of game faux pas they got pulled for was mittani gate in 2012 which got rinsed in public exactly the same way as this. So i;d say comparing this to the GSF in game actions is not even in the same ballpark.