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Salvos Rhoska
#2841 - 2014-03-26 14:56:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Batelle wrote:
[You haven't even changed the analogy at all, you change the actors to make them appear more sympathetic each time.

I cant change the analogy lol, or it wont be representative of its analog.
This time I finetuned it for the sympathy factor, because I wanted to see how sensitive the person I was discussing was to that, as compared to his sympathy to the actual Bonus Room victims/clients.

What are you so angry at?

If you wish and think you can do better, then you represent by analogy, or give an example of an actual case.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#2842 - 2014-03-26 14:56:20 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Crumplecorn wrote:
But when it's a racist, homophobic 'plane controller' who hands over his stuff to the most infamous 'scammer' in EVE history and rages intensely when said scammer won't give it back? Not so much.


But you didn't know he was, till after an hour or so of subjecting him to passive aggressive taunting, humiliating and demeaning tasks as well as frustration. Infact for all we know, he isnt actually a homophobe or a racist, even though he said those things in an emotional outburst.

The way you portray how you think of the victims, or "clients" as you refer to them, is interesting.
How about this by comparison.

A pugdy, short, ms,piggylike and rather dim 30ish blonde woman walks into a biker bar dressed in what she thinks are clothes that would be attractive to men. She looks around upon entry, and decides she is going to try her luck on the loudest guy there. Shes a bit of a dits, but she really wants to get somewhere with this guy. He tells her "Hey baby, gimme half your moneh, and Ill double it fer ya". She does so. And he does, Her confidence in him is lifted. Her rather empty head begins to dimly contemplate possibilities. Later in the evening, he informs her,"hey sugarpie, you still got that money? well, give it to all to me and then we'll go somewhere we can REALLY make this something. She complies, and follows him outside of the bar and down a neighboring dark alley.

There, a bunch of strange men show up, and start demanding that she performs demeaning and humiliating tasks for them if she wants her money back, at the same time as passive aggressively taunting her. This continues for 2hrs until she finally can't stand it anymore, throws a huge fit and storms out of the alleyway with the men laughing at her back. They also recorded the activity for their friends to watch and enjoy.

Would that be an accurate analogy, do you think? How much sympathy do you feel for ms.piggy in this example, as compared to a client in the Bonus Room?


DANG ! The misogyny is strong in this one.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Big Lynx
#2843 - 2014-03-26 14:56:34 UTC
tiberiusric wrote:
I have been playing this game for many many years now, and have never really been comfortable with the whole scamming thing. I think it spoils the game and actually drives people away. Scamming as become so prevalent in Eve its over taken the good aspects of it. Look at jita every single post in chat is a scam.

I dont like the fact that goonswarm do this constantly to a point its part of their culture, and sometimes the way they do it is a little creepy and weird and wrong.

But this is a whole new level, and its just not about a scam, its cyber bullying, torture at is very worse. I am sure this is certainly not the first case of this and its happening to others by other eve players.

You can hear from the start where this was going, and Erotica1 sounds really creepy tbh. They carried on for 2 hours, even when they knew the guy was getting upset, this is when you stop. Actually it should of never started.

This is for me the real darkside of eve, and where scamming takes it past gameplay. I have never played or seen a game that allows this to happen, or even breeds that type of person. The very idea of scamming has created these people, and CCP certainly has to take brunt of the blame for this as they endorse this type of behavior, but its gone a a step too far. as stated I am sure there are many Erotica1s lurking about.

This is just not scamming, its parasidic and morally wrong. Personally i would of called the police and given them the recording as people are now getting prosecuted for this type of thing. What gets me most is that there have been a few cases on twitter etc where people have committed suicide because of people like this. What if this guy did?

CCP has a duty just like twitter and others to protect its users.

However being a veteran player of this game, even after the time an investment i have made, every moral fibre in me is twitching. I am now seriously thinking do i want to pay, play or be a part of this game, ccp and its community if this is something that is happening to people. I certainly do not want to be associated with an organisation or game that endorses such actions and game play anymore.



i'll quote that regularly.
Hendrick Tallardar
Doomheim
#2844 - 2014-03-26 14:56:58 UTC
Batelle wrote:
Hendrick Tallardar wrote:
Massively, known for the pieces devoid of sensationalistic titles and click baiting, already ran a piece calling it "cyber-bullying".


No, they didn't. They attached a headline to a repost of a repost of ripard teg's blog.


That would constitute "running a piece"

I didn't say they wrote an article or editorial on it, just that they ran a piece going "This Is How Evil And Terrible EVE Is Dear Readers"
Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
#2845 - 2014-03-26 14:57:08 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
But you didn't know he was, till after an hour or so of subjecting him to passive aggressive taunting, humiliating and demeaning tasks as well as frustration. Infact for all we know, he isnt actually a homophobe or a racist, even though he said those things in an emotional outburst.
And interestingly enough, for that first hour I was quite torn because I didn't see anything technically wrong with what Erotica 1 was doing, but I really thought he was an ******* and wanted him to give the guy his stuff back.

But once the client showed his true colours, well, as I said before no sympathy. If we're going to talk about what actually happened, let's talk about all of what actually happened, instead of cherry picking parts.

Salvos Rhoska wrote:
How much sympathy do you feel for ms.piggy
Quite a lot, she has been invented as part of a pitiful attempt to drag something which occured on the internet with make believe money into the real world with real money, not to mention perpetuate blondeist stereotypes.

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Salvos Rhoska
#2846 - 2014-03-26 14:57:39 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
DANG ! The misogyny is strong in this one.

None intended.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#2847 - 2014-03-26 14:57:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Ranger 1
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Batelle wrote:
which is important HOW? Lots of things are possible. This is a pointless hypothetical

Important because the rights of EVE clients are important. Not only as players, but also as people.

Since these events occur outside EVE, there is a problem in how to ensure laws are followed.

I'm a bit unclear as to what laws cover asking someone to sing on TS, or conning people out of imaginary pixels that don't belong to them in the first place.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Sentamon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#2848 - 2014-03-26 14:58:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Sentamon
Prie Mary wrote:
It would be interesting to see if any of the victims are American, as I am aware of some cases in the past of children suing their parents for getting divorced as it causes them emotional distress.

This bonus room clearly exploits people and causes emotional distress. Would be interesting to see this go to court.


-have to walk dogs in real life so not going to be on to comment for a hour or so-


In America we have a long and proud history of scamming and emotional distress. For example we traded useless beads to the natives for all their land knowing that in their culture they had no concept of property ownership. Epic scam! Then when they acted up we put them concentration camps, oops I mean reservations. Now as horrible as that sounds, the rest of the world is far worse.

~ Professional Forum Alt  ~
Katkon Darnok
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2849 - 2014-03-26 14:59:12 UTC
Malcolm Shinhwa wrote:
Katkon Darnok wrote:

288 = statistical significance (actually, >32 makes for a statistically significant sample size). So, this thread is probably very representative of how the community feels - at least those that KNOW about the issue. And, at the risk of insulting your intelligence (not my intent), pls do bear in mind that most EVE players are probably not active on the forums, and probably only a small number of those that are have seen or are following this thread.


LordOfDespair says: "If the majority of the players and nonplayers..."
Del0r replies: "The majority of eve players ahve hardly even heard of the forums..."
LordOfDespair counters: "This 137 page thread..."

Offering a 137 page threadnaught as proof that a majority (thats 51%) of the Eve player base has registered an opinion is clearly wrong when only 288 people of the 500k or so subscribers have expressed an opinion. Its still not a majority of the 25,000 people online in Eve right now. I know the thread is moving fast and all, but I was not incorrect in any way.


Technically, the sample size in this thread is statistically significant and so therefore CAN be taken as being indicative of how the community at large feels, UNLESS you have reason to believe that the mix of people on the forums is unrepresentative of the feelings/moral compass of the community at large, in which case you could argue that the thread is suffering from selection bias. I suspect that's a weak argument, though.
Salvos Rhoska
#2850 - 2014-03-26 15:00:47 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
[---

Just out of curiosity, do you think that 3rd parties have a right to record your telephone conversations without your consent?

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
#2851 - 2014-03-26 15:01:15 UTC
Lucretia DeWinter wrote:
The progression to external channels to continue the humiliation of this person and the subsequent verbal abuse, racism and threats are relevant as they are performed by members of our community under the auspice of being part of the game.
While I find did find the verbal abuse, racism and threats quite distasteful, they did happen completely outside the game and so I cannot agree with Sohkar being punished for them in EVE.

If we do consider the TS part of the game however, then I would say that ti should be treated the same as someone being ransomed in local. Singing a song to save your ship or whatever is nothing new.

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Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#2852 - 2014-03-26 15:02:15 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:


4: While these people met through EVE, CCP has no control over what is said or done in TS... nor should they.


Oh yes they do. Not during the "incidents" of course as they are random and unpredictable and have to be reported first.

But CCP can indeed initiate a "clean up" response.

These knuckleheads are just pushing things to the limit so that CCP has no choice but to take action and actually implement rules contrary to the original intent of EVE.

Ero1 and equivalent cronies are just trying to break your EVE, and nothing more.

A sad, but well-played trolling it will have been when this happens.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#2853 - 2014-03-26 15:02:33 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
[---

Just out of curiosity, do you think that 3rd parties have a right to record your telephone conversations without your consent?

TS isn't a private phone line. Blink

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Abrazzar
Vardaugas Family
#2854 - 2014-03-26 15:03:11 UTC
That the teamspeak happened out of game doesn't put it out of CCP's area of interest. RMT agreements happen out of game, too, while in game someone gives his stuff away, yet CCP takes in game action against RMTers.

Sovereignty and Population

New Mining Mechanics
Upde
Upde Harris Industries
#2855 - 2014-03-26 15:03:50 UTC
Batelle wrote:
Crumplecorn wrote:
Upde wrote:
when the media vultures write this one up how do you think that will go down...................
If they get their hands on it they will exploit it and CCP will ban Erotica 1 as a form of damage control. I'd do the same, it's a game not a free country. But whether something actually bad happened, and whether CCP have to act due to media pressure, are two different issues.


What "media pressure" are you referring to or expecting to appear? There is no shitstorm. There is only a threadnaught.


the same bile that happened after fanfest. The media will likely rake that up as a little reminder and then say that this behaviour has been allowed to proliferate and then use bonus room antics to further support their case. Which they of course would not be able to if it was never made public. You see thats where this all falls appart, its the old saying "its all a bit of fun untill someone loses an eye".

If you listen to the whole recording who can hear where the lines of in game metagming to out of game get crossed

" Early in the proceedings, the victim admits to having a minor speech impediment that quickly becomes apparent. One of the instigators pounces on this and suggests that any word the victim cannot pronounce properly, he be made to look up the definition for and read that definition as well. "

" His wife has to intervene and try to calm him down... unsuccessfully. She retires from the proceedings, apparently having a panic attack."

"Perhaps you could get your wife a paper bag to breathe into,"

are any of those parts directed at the in game character or the person driving the character.

You see this is why the grey line of in game / outgame meta gaming has been crossed and why there is going to be more than this threadnought with regards to a shitstorm.
Kaivar Lancer
Doomheim
#2856 - 2014-03-26 15:04:50 UTC
Basically we have a degenerate gambler (sohkar) threatening to attack the card dealer (Erotica 1) after voluntarily risking too much spaceship money and losing it in a game (no different than a casino).

And somehow Erotica 1 is at fault... ? Courts have thrown out cases when degenerate gamblers try to sue back their losses from casinos.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#2857 - 2014-03-26 15:05:04 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:


4: While these people met through EVE, CCP has no control over what is said or done in TS... nor should they.


Oh yes they do. Not during the "incidents" of course as they are random and unpredictable and have to be reported first.

But CCP can indeed initiate a "clean up" response.

These knuckleheads are just pushing things to the limit so that CCP has no choice but to take action and actually implement rules contrary to the original intent of EVE.

Ero1 and equivalent cronies are just trying to break your EVE, and nothing more.

A sad, but well-played trolling it will have been when this happens.


Well, as I acknowledged at the beginning of the post, CCP might bow to media pressure and make an example of this after the fact... maybe.

Of course this would be an incredibly bad precedent to set.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Katkon Darnok
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2858 - 2014-03-26 15:05:11 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
While I find this distasteful, this is a non issue.

The question kept being asked "What would your mother or grandmother say if they heard this recording"?

That's easy.

They would simply ask why the man was complying with those ridiculous requests, and why he didn't simply say no and leave.

This entire conversation should begin and end with that simple question.


Really, that's what your family would ask? My parents would have likely confiscated my computer, banned me from playing computer games (if I had done this as a teen), and made me give all the assets/ISK back (and likely then some). Worse still, I would have lost their trust and clearly disappointed them. In short, they would have been ashamed and embarrassed about my actions. But they were decent people. Honest and trustworthy to a fault, with a very strong moral compass.
Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
#2859 - 2014-03-26 15:05:42 UTC
Katkon Darnok wrote:
Technically, the sample size in this thread is statistically significant and so therefore CAN be taken as being indicative of how the community at large feels, UNLESS you have reason to believe that the mix of people on the forums is unrepresentative of the feelings/moral compass of the community at large, in which case you could argue that the thread is suffering from selection bias. I suspect that's a weak argument, though.
You forgot a step. There's also the mix of people in the topic.

If I opened an information booth with a banner saying 'Katkon Darnok is bad at statistics' over it, presented a blog post by someone about how you are bad at statistics to anyone who came in, and then polled them on what they thought of your knowledge of statistics was, do you think the results would be representative of the population at large?

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Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#2860 - 2014-03-26 15:06:34 UTC
Abrazzar wrote:
That the teamspeak happened out of game doesn't put it out of CCP's area of interest. RMT agreements happen out of game, too, while in game someone gives his stuff away, yet CCP takes in game action against RMTers.

They take action because RMT involves selling and making a profit from CCP's property... and they have every right to.

Entirely unrelated.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.