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Clara Pond
Never Not Snazzy
#2781 - 2014-03-26 14:13:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Clara Pond
Lucretia DeWinter wrote:

What about when they say, actually, this contest is now a dance marathon and you have to stay here for the next 12 hours. You can leave at any time. There is a difference to what people volunteer to do and what they're forced into doing, by ransom or coercion.


I would say that the person can still leave at any time, and thus by definition is not being subjected to torture. Were the casino to be sued, it would be sued for duplicitous business practices not for torture. CCP has made their position very clear on duplicitous business practices in Eve.

And you are on very shaky ground talking about "forcing" and "ransom" in relation to Teamspeak and space money.

Lucretia DeWinter wrote:
The internet is full of people volunteering to do stupid debasing things, many of which are pretty funny. Not so many occasions where somebody is goaded or manipulated into doing those things. Then its less funny.


Less funny != torture.
Qalix
Long Jump.
#2782 - 2014-03-26 14:14:11 UTC
wow. i've seen some threadnaughts, but i think this may be the fastest growing one of ALL TIME
Ban Bindy
Bindy Brothers Pottery Association
True Reign
#2783 - 2014-03-26 14:14:56 UTC
I read the comments about this whole issue at the one site where I've seen news about it posted. (The link is buried in these pages somewhere, not going to try to find it.) Pretty clear that people outside the game think both the scammer and the victim are lunatics. At this point the Eve apologists have started to show up, but the early posts are not very complimentary about Eve or the player base.

Doesn't matter who we think is at fault here in the forums. CCP is the one taking the beating on that thread. Doesn't matter whether we think that's fair or not. CCP has stated lots of times that the design of the game hinges on the ability of one player to ruin the day of another at will. To a person who doesn't know a lot about gaming, and even to a lot who do, that sounds like a recipe for bullying.

Some Eve players are bound to push the freedom they're given to extremes and they will eventually spoil the sandbox for everybody. It's not enough for scammers that their activity is allowed even though it completely breaks the notion that reward and risk should be related in the game. That this questionable being enjoys his Bonus Room fetish is bad enough. But really, this many people will step forward to say this is great, keep going, we love your new game content?

Erotica 1 is clearly enjoying all the attention. That's pretty creepy too.

I don't expect CCP to do anything except respond to the PR pressure as they have to. If there was ever a company with a weak moral compass, it's this one.
Dorn Val
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#2784 - 2014-03-26 14:15:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Dorn Val
I'm really torn on this one....

What Erotoica 1 does in game is not my play style, but at the same time I'm glad that Eve is a sandbox where just about anything goes. I live in a wormhole and enjoy PVP, and I don't discriminate in my target selection -it doesn't matter if you're ready for it or not, if you're a carebear or a dedicated PVPer, the ZOMG-SuprizeButtSecsPVP is coming. I don't care if that was your ratting Tengu, if I have it locked and pointed it's going to die. You loved that Tengu, spent a lot of your valuable time to acquire it so it has some intrinsic value even if it is just pixels, and I took it away from you and didn't care how you felt about it. So at the end of the day just how far removed am I, or anyone else who plays Eve, from Erotica 1?...

Sandbox: An enclosed area filled with sand for children engaged in open-ended, unstructured, imaginative play. Also a place for cats to urinate and defecate...
Salvos Rhoska
#2785 - 2014-03-26 14:15:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
False and unrelated implication stacked upon implication upon implication x10000


Can I ask you an honest question please?

Are you genuinely incapable of reading what is ACTUALLY said, rather than IMPLYING 1000 other things that NOBODY said?

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Clara Pond
Never Not Snazzy
#2786 - 2014-03-26 14:15:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Clara Pond
LordOfDespair wrote:
Have you even listened to the 2 hour long recording?
How are you going to compare that to .01 isk wars on the market and ingame PVP?


Yes, I'm apparently one of the few who has. Importantly, I listened to it before Jester had a chance to coach me on how I should feel about it. And you are cherry picking mock-outraged soundbites in order to excuse yourself from understanding analogy.
Salvos Rhoska
#2787 - 2014-03-26 14:17:28 UTC
Galdrak wrote:
i keep seeing you post that. i dont get what you mean, to me it seems totally off topic and a pointless post.

His language capabilities are mostly restricted to the F1 key.
Atleast he is consistent.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Bloodmyst Ranwar
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2788 - 2014-03-26 14:18:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Bloodmyst Ranwar
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:

When did the world decide to create pansies out of everyone?

With this new term 'cyber bullying' being thrown around, I really am shaking my head here. When I was young(tm), people dealt with 'bullies' as a normal part of coming of age, on their own. People dealt with all life challenges in fact, without having to codify it with a marketing term to convert individual fail into victimization...

You want to know why some young people are killing themselves due to 'bullying'?

It's because they were fricken bubble wrapped since birth and grew up without having to develop any adversity management skills, so when the first 'big' challenge did come their way their brains exploded. ****, Johnny didn't invite me to the dance, I will slit my wrists in the tub...

Now I am not talking about putting all kids in the Agoge of Sparta, but what I am asking is aren't these well-intentioned idiots who coin pansification terms like 'cyber bullying' just making more life-neutered pussies?

tldr;
HTFU


You Sir, couldn't be any more wrong. Honestly, we are also living in the "today," not "yesterday." Get with the times, bullying is no longer tolerated.

There is no such thing as telling a victim of bullying to HTFU. Why? They shouldn't have to deal with it in the first place. Hence, why those who choose to bully, suffer the consequences of their own actions.

It's not, "Oh getting bullied are you? Well then HTFU!!!"

Wake up to yourself!


Cheerio :)
Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
#2789 - 2014-03-26 14:18:49 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
1) There is no evidence that the victim is even in the channel at the time it is said.
2) There is no evidence that the victim even hears that being said.
3) There is no expression of consent on the part of the victim to being recorded.
4) There is no implied consent on the part of the victim for being recorded, because it is not specifically stated by the recorder.
5) There is no expression of consent to distribution of the recording.
The client also explicitly states near the end that he is aware that it is being recorded and that it will be distributed and doesn't care.

Having some basic knowledge of the topic at hand really can help you know.

Witty Image - Stream

Not Liking this post hurts my RL feelings and will be considered harassment
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#2790 - 2014-03-26 14:18:57 UTC
Qalix wrote:
wow. i've seen some threadnaughts, but i think this may be the fastest growing one of ALL TIME


Obviously you were not around for the Incarna Rage Threads.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
LordOfDespair
Deep Dark Fantasy.
#2791 - 2014-03-26 14:19:49 UTC
Clara Pond wrote:
LordOfDespair wrote:
Have you even listened to the 2 hour long recording?
How are you going to compare that to .01 isk wars on the market and ingame PVP?


Yes, I'm apparently one of the few who has. And you are cherry picking mock-outraged soundbites in order to excuse yourself from understanding analogy.


You made a really bad analogy, your post was bad too.

Do a better job on expressing your ideas.

Or leme guess, it is the readers fault that your posts are bad and make no sense.
Same way its the victims fault that he got abused?

Right? Roll
Salvos Rhoska
#2792 - 2014-03-26 14:20:22 UTC
Dorn Val wrote:
What Erotoica 1 does in game is not my play style, but at the same time I'm glad that Eve is a sandbox where just about anything goes.

It may swing your opinion to know that there are quite many people who listen in either during the Bonus Round events, or listen to the recordings afterwards while the "clients" are being subjected to this.

Begs the question: Why.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Icylce
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2793 - 2014-03-26 14:20:42 UTC
Clara Pond wrote:


Quite right, you have no idea of these things in an MMO. They are a capsuleer name, an alliance ticker, a shiptype. They are a mark, a target. The person you undercut with your market trade may have been on their last ISK and suffering manic depression. Who knows what your callous undercut could trigger? You argue that people are responsible for the jilted lover screaming "if you don't take me back I'll kill myself". People are not responsible for the reactions of others.


¨
Wrong. Parents are responsible for reactions and actions of their kids. In your example, the ex-lover may be held responsible for not trying to prevent suicide had he known the other person is mentally unstable. Your generalisation is missleading.
Katkon Darnok
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2794 - 2014-03-26 14:20:47 UTC
Dorn Val wrote:
I'm really torn on this one....

What Erotoica 1 does in game is not my play style, but at the same time I'm glad that Eve is a sandbox where just about anything goes. I live in a wormhole and enjoy PVP, and I don't discriminate in my target selection -it doesn't matter if you're ready for it or not, if you're a carebear or a dedicated PVPer, the ZOMG-SuprizeButtSecsPVP is coming. I don't care if that was you're ratting Tengu, if I have it locked and pointed it's going to die. You loved that Tengu, spent a lot of your valuable time to acquire it so it has some intrinsic value even if it is just pixels, and I took it away from you and didn't care how you felt about it. So at the end of the day just how far removed am I, or anyone else who plays Eve, from Erotica 1?...


Quite honestly, how you play - as you've described it - is not the issue. I personally don't enjoy or support ganking, but this thread wouldn't have come about if it involved ganking or a run-of-the-mill scam. It came about because the scammers bullied the target on a call (making fun of his speech impediment), recorded said call and posted it online for all the world to hear. THAT's what this thread is really about.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#2795 - 2014-03-26 14:21:19 UTC
Chribba wrote:

One difference between your young(tm) type bullying and current online(tm) type bullying, is that it's way way way harder to actually do something about it. Classic face to face bullying, you could try fight back by punching some sense into someone. It's much harder to smack someone in the face when they're anonymous behind a screen in a different country and can keep on doing stuff. So I wouldn't call it fair to compare the two types as if they were equal. But I fully understand your point.


That is definitely a particularly insidious aspect of cyberbullying, however if you want to call what's happening in the bonus room "cyberbullying," then that aspect is not at play in this situation, because as far as we know, erotica1 does not harass "clients" after the bonus round has ended.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Krants
Doomheim
#2796 - 2014-03-26 14:21:20 UTC
Capt Starfox wrote:
Krants wrote:
I hope that CCP comes down hard on this. If not outright banning perpetrators then at least modifying EULA in a way so this would be considered a major offence in the future.

I've got 2 problems with the whole bonus room concept:
1. It uses EvE ecosystem as a honeypot. It filters out the weak and susceptible so that they could be coer... persuaded to join out of game voice comms.
2. They use TS, an out of game, unsupervised and unpoliced solution, to abuse victims for hours and hours. If you recollect two weeks ago CCP contacted a law enforcement to possibly prevent a suicide. Why? Because a player had announced in local chat that he'd blow his brains out. It was all it took for CCP to intervene.
Now with this TS "bonus room" we've got an unsupervised system that consist of a victim and X number of perpetrators who's main goal is to make emotional abuse last as long as possible. And they will do what is necessary to debase the victim psychologically so that he/she would break for the lulz.
Do you believe that "bonus room" perpetrators would contact CCP or law enforcement if a victim would threaten self-harm, like really?

You can scam all you want in EvE sandbox, but the moment you use EvE as a tool for out of game coercion your rights for "emergent gameplay" should end.


Because you can't handle Eve Online and need CCP to hold your hand??

You fail so miserably to see that all participants chose to stay and in no way were forced against their will to continue.


It's not about handling Eve, it's about using Eve to get players who are in vulnerable position (loss of assets) to out of game and unsupervised system.

If you don't think that it falls under coercion and victims could have left every moment please do a following "bonus room" experiment:
1. Use Eve as a honeypot to get a one player's most of the assets transferred to you
2. Offer them a way to get assets back, all it takes is to join out of game communications systems.
3. Start slow, ask them to sing, read etc.
4. In time escalate and ask them a nude picture of themselves or a small webcam clip with upper body uncovered and something written on it to prove that it is legit. Btw tell them that it is voluntary and they can leave should they wish at any point of time

Now if you live in NA or Europe and the victim decides to contact law enforcement you will be charged with a minimum of sexual assault with coercion and maybe cyberbullying too if they have specific laws. I wonder how many CEO’s have used “she could have walked away” defense in courts after they had put their secretaries to a fact – have coitus with me or pack your things.
Salvos Rhoska
#2797 - 2014-03-26 14:22:58 UTC
Crumplecorn wrote:
----


This is only one of many many Bonus Rounds.
And even though he states he knew it at the end it at the end, that does not obviate the requirement to ask him FIRST, properly, for both the right to record him and to distribute it.

Can you guarantee that in every one the participant was PROPERLY and LEGALLY informed and asked for consent to be recorded, and for the distribution of the recordings? Can you?

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Lucretia DeWinter
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2798 - 2014-03-26 14:24:05 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
There are real people going to sleep at night with empty bellies and no roof over their heads, but God forbid you white knight freaks of nature doing anything about that, because:

"OH NOES!! Betsy said my braces were ugly, and Veronica heard her and Veronica's on the cheerleading squad! I'll never show my face outside the house again!"

Is apparently so much more important.

Go help the genuinely less fortunate, if you heart bleeds so much. Get with the freaking program.


What!?

So you shouldn't oppose something bad because it's not as bad as This Other Really Bad Thing?

If I see somebody getting bullied in the street, I'm going to intervene. Not stand there and think "I'll do something about that, right after I've finished singlehandedly sorting out world poverty."
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#2799 - 2014-03-26 14:25:03 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Dorn Val wrote:
What Erotoica 1 does in game is not my play style, but at the same time I'm glad that Eve is a sandbox where just about anything goes.

It may swing your opinion to know that there are quite many people who listen in either during the Bonus Round events, or listen to the recordings afterwards while the "clients" are being subjected to this.

Begs the question: Why.

Because there's an endless supply of fully grown Muppets willing to hand over their dignity.

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Clara Pond
Never Not Snazzy
#2800 - 2014-03-26 14:25:04 UTC
LordOfDespair wrote:

You made a really bad analogy, your post was bad too.
Do a better job on expressing your ideas.
Or leme guess, it is the readers fault that your posts are bad and make no sense.
Same way its the victims fault that he got abused?
Right? Roll


I guess if you say it's true, it must be true. Even if your entire argument is based on ad hominem.