EVE General Discussion

Okay... I've been reading this since page one and cannot resist contributing an opinion - which is what forums are for.


I have been aware of Erotica1 for a long time since I first saw the spam in Jita local. I have played the ISK doubling game and have played the bonus room. (no, there's no recording of me singing or throwing a fit, sorry...) I was interested in learning how it all worked and figured out pretty quickly that Erotica1 is quite possibly the sharpest and most cunning scammer in EVE.

The detailed rules that hook in the punters by stoking their greed with the legitimising and confidence inspiring early payouts encourage the gullible to dive right in.

Erotica1's skills at social engineering are very good and I have no problem with having such deadly sharks swimming in our EVE pool. The unwary should be able to be fleeced or robbed of every ISK and every asset they own in the game.


And this is where this breaks it for me. In the game. Characters are one thing - when in character, kill, threaten, steal, lie, cheat. All is good. On TS3 - I am me, not Lucretia DeWinter. That boundary is the extent of the New Eden universe.


Once you carry over a scam (or emergent gameplay) into the extra-game world, I believe it does actually cross a line. There are several reasons I hold this belief:

• External communications are not protected by CCP - in game actions are logged and can be investigated.
• EVE assets have value. Perhaps not real world court of law value, but they have emotional and psychological value which is no different to tangible material goods to the person who owns them.
• Skilled communicators can deceive and coerce extremely effectively and easily over forums or voice comms - the impersonal protections offered by anonymity make it very easy for people to disregard all standards of conduct without accountability for their actions.

Taking the example of Jester's blog and the soundcloud, I believe that:

• Erotica1 et al crossed a line into unacceptable behaviour. Although players enter the bonus room willingly, once they gave up their assets (which I don't deny is a stupid thing to do) they are then used as leverage to extort and coerce and it is at this point that the player becomes a victim.
• That they could leave at any time is no defence. There is huge pressure, skillfully applied, to so massively disincentivse just quitting and walking away. Your boss could casually mention that times are hard and there might have to be layoffs, oh, and can you work late tonight? There's no threats or blackmail here, but its the same concept.
• If ever somebody comes into the conversation and says, "Okay, Please stop" - and they continue to humiliate and denigrate their victim - that is way out of order.

If it were up to me, I would propose the following actions:

• Erotica1 and helpers should be informed that although scamming is an accepted practice in New Eden, great care should be taken to preserve the dignity and wellbeing of the real life people behind the character. Humiliating people for public or private publication should be considered an ethical breach of the EULA (the conduct section) and moving forward, future events such as this example will result in a ban from CCP services. (and I mean a proper ban - with payment card/IP address blacklisting)
• Sohkar receives a temp ban. This is a result of the language and threats made to Erotica1. This is mitigated from a permanent ban due to the duress under which the comments are made. It should be explained why a ban has been implemented.

I believe we as a community should make it known that this extra-EVE meta-scamming is not what we should want to be representative of the game and community we engage with.

I believe that CCP has a responsibility to investigate these cases and where they feel necessary, take action, regardless of whether it happens in game or out, these are EVE players, using our community and game world to drive and facilitate these scenarios.


It is not up to us or CCP to 'police the world' but they should be invested in protecting people from real world harm and protecting their reputation. As well as protecting the sandbox in game world as a harsh, unforgiving and dangerous place inhabited by psychopaths, zealots and all manner of unhinged capsuleers.

The several strawman arguments raised against the example of CCP interference are truly fallacious. I believe it is undeniable that the actions demonstrated here are reprehensible and should not remain unchallenged.

We are adults and should conduct ourselves with respect, keeping the villainy within the game.

While I hope this protest isn't ever lasting (because I have a lot of respect for people who take action rather than whine on the forum), can I have your stuff just in case?

mmmm sounds yummy

i like your post. but the last sentence quoted above is highly doubtful regarding the action of ero et al.

Can I have your stuff?

It is not about CCP policing the world, its about them protecting their reputation and integrity when these things are done effectively in the name of EVE.

Lets break this down

Scam someone out of everything in game - no problem here, perfectly acceptable and part of the EVE game experience and to be expected and supported as part of the game mechanics

however, take that scam and use it lure people into TS to emotionally **** them using the EVE universe as leverage....... wehat part of the game experience is that then ??? It is this part that CCP need to decide if it is ok for someone to do that in the name of EVE or using their IP as leverage to do this. it is CCPs responsibility to protect their integrity and bottom line. If they think this stunt will harm them in anyway then it will be curtains for all involved including the "contestant" who went ballistic.

Deliberate attempt to lure the guy out from in game channels with the sole purpose of dodging EULA for harassment and bullying practices might not be seen as breaching EULA itself but it's enough to be a criminal case in most civilized countries. That alone is enough for CCP to take action as their platform is used for this kind activity and if they don't do **** about it they might be the ones finding themselves under investigation.

Where you all live thinking bullying is ok these days rofl. People go to jail for saying stuff online and this is a case of E1 who simply set up a bullying shop for "entertaining" purposes using EVE online as primary tool to his predatory activity.

This is a very serious issue for CCP lol anybody who thinks otherwise is simply delusional.

To me this boils down to 3 simple questions

Did anyone break the games TOS or EULA? In my opinion no; it all took place in TS therefore not in game.

Did anyone break the law? In my opinion possibly. I’m not a lawyer and I don’t know what the applicable laws are in the countries the various protagonists live in. In general I think the laws on cyber bullying in most countries are a mess, however this took place in TS so it would probably be classified under regular harassment / extortion / threatening behaviour laws, just as if it took place over a phone line.

Should CCP do anything? In my opinion yes. Putting aside any moral arguments CCP should act to defend their IP here. If this thing is picked up by the mainstream news it will tarnish CCP’s name and would probably impact their profits. If I worked in CCP’s PR department I would be recommending that E1 and his friends all received a permanent ban and that CCP publicly announced that they would fully cooperate with any criminal investigation into this, or any similar incidents. I don’t think CCP care if this kind of thing goes on, but they should care if it damages their public image.

Whilst I am on the subject of scamming (or close to it anyway) I think CCP should take a long hard look. CCP have implemented a direct exchange rate between RL currency and in game ISK (via PLEX) which means that any in game item that can be bought for ISK has a RL currency value. Eventually the law will catch up with this, and in game scams will get treated just like RL scams. If CCP doesn’t close up UI loopholes that facilitate scams they might find themselves on the wrong end of a lot of “aiding and abetting” charges.

There are many discussions in this thread that are admittedly above my intellectual level, and this may well be one of them, but I feel that I must comment on the "TS3 isn't Eve" defence.

They found the guy in Eve, hooked and wound him further and further into the scam using his Eve assets and tried to destroy his wish to play Eve. Whether they did this on TS3 or using cups and a length of string seems pretty irrelevant, to me.

Also on the "He's been doing it for months" defence:

So far the hazing has not necessarily crossed "the line", in this case many agree that it did. The fact that he skirted the line so far doesn't alter that fact.

CCP need to distinguish between the "cold, hard universe" of losing your ship every time you undock which is supported by most of us, and the "cold, hard universe" of psychotic relief practised by a vocal minority. Not an easy task, but a required task IMO.

Everyone in this thread should just take a step back, maybe drink a glass of water and calm down.

I really have a hard time to understand how anyone can call this cyberbullying or torture with a straight face. After all we are talking about game characters here and not about an attack on a persons real life. Everyone who can't see that difference has lost his perspective and can't separate fiction from reality anymore and should probably stay away from this kind of RPG.

I hope this thread gives Erotica 1 the publicity to get elected to the CSM and replace Reta.. sorry, Ripart Teg.

Erotica 1 4 CMS9