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Dave Stark
#921 - 2014-03-25 21:07:41 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Cultural Enrichment wrote:
Allow me to reiterate on the reality of cyber bullying:

Quote:
Hahahahahahahaha How The **** Is Cyber Bullying Real Hahahaha ***** Just Walk Away From The Screen Like ***** Close Your Eyes Haha


And let me point out that getting someone to sing and record it is not cyber bullying. Cyber bullying or any bullying is something that happens over months/years and is a constant bombardment of hate.



and usually where the victim is unable to remove themselves from the situation with the click of one mouse button.
Malcolm from Marketing
Klaatu Technologies
#922 - 2014-03-25 21:07:50 UTC
Sirinda wrote:
I am appaled at what he's doing, but I also get Malcanis' point of view, if it is the one I think it is.

Basically, you can't punish somebody who hasn't broken any rules, and doing so in spite of it would create a dangerous precedent. In that regard, CCP's hands are more or less tied unless they want to invoke their TOS' arbitrary savior clause.

What a lot of people on the pages 1-5 are apparently forgetting is the fact CCP created those rules; there is no reason they couldn't adapt them to the situation.
Failure to do so would border on criminal negligence, IMHO.


Ive said it multiple times to multiple people in this thread.

The Mittani + Fan fest.

It happened, he broke no rules, yet he got a temp ban and was forced from his position. That was the right thing to do in that situation, its also my opinion that Erotica should have all his assets/isk removed and also receive a ban, but i have morals so i guess im in the minority.
Dave Stark
#923 - 2014-03-25 21:10:10 UTC
Malcolm from Marketing wrote:
Sirinda wrote:
I am appaled at what he's doing, but I also get Malcanis' point of view, if it is the one I think it is.

Basically, you can't punish somebody who hasn't broken any rules, and doing so in spite of it would create a dangerous precedent. In that regard, CCP's hands are more or less tied unless they want to invoke their TOS' arbitrary savior clause.

What a lot of people on the pages 1-5 are apparently forgetting is the fact CCP created those rules; there is no reason they couldn't adapt them to the situation.
Failure to do so would border on criminal negligence, IMHO.


Ive said it multiple times to multiple people in this thread.

The Mittani + Fan fest.

It happened, he broke no rules, yet he got a temp ban and was forced from his position. That was the right thing to do in that situation, its also my opinion that Erotica should have all his assets/isk removed and also receive a ban, but i have morals so i guess im in the minority.


the difference is, the mittani told people to add him and made comments about the guy possibly committing suicide.
that's vastly different to what happened here.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#924 - 2014-03-25 21:10:28 UTC
Malcolm from Marketing wrote:
Sirinda wrote:
I am appaled at what he's doing, but I also get Malcanis' point of view, if it is the one I think it is.

Basically, you can't punish somebody who hasn't broken any rules, and doing so in spite of it would create a dangerous precedent. In that regard, CCP's hands are more or less tied unless they want to invoke their TOS' arbitrary savior clause.

What a lot of people on the pages 1-5 are apparently forgetting is the fact CCP created those rules; there is no reason they couldn't adapt them to the situation.
Failure to do so would border on criminal negligence, IMHO.


Ive said it multiple times to multiple people in this thread.

The Mittani + Fan fest.

It happened, he broke no rules, yet he got a temp ban and was forced from his position. That was the right thing to do in that situation, its also my opinion that Erotica should have all his assets/isk removed and also receive a ban, but i have morals so i guess im in the minority.



And what punishment should the caller get?

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Mag's
Azn Empire
#925 - 2014-03-25 21:11:25 UTC
Ramona McCandless wrote:
Malcolm from Marketing wrote:
Sirinda wrote:
I am appaled at what he's doing, but I also get Malcanis' point of view, if it is the one I think it is.

Basically, you can't punish somebody who hasn't broken any rules, and doing so in spite of it would create a dangerous precedent. In that regard, CCP's hands are more or less tied unless they want to invoke their TOS' arbitrary savior clause.

What a lot of people on the pages 1-5 are apparently forgetting is the fact CCP created those rules; there is no reason they couldn't adapt them to the situation.
Failure to do so would border on criminal negligence, IMHO.


Ive said it multiple times to multiple people in this thread.

The Mittani + Fan fest.

It happened, he broke no rules, yet he got a temp ban and was forced from his position. That was the right thing to do in that situation, its also my opinion that Erotica should have all his assets/isk removed and also receive a ban, but i have morals so i guess im in the minority.



And what punishment should the caller get?
Made to sing 2 songs would be a start.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Don Aubaris
#926 - 2014-03-25 21:12:26 UTC
Seems some people don't understand how much 1 billion is.
If you only have 1 billion in assets you probably worked for it in Eve.
That's not $20 but hours and hours and hours in gameplay.
The emotional tie to that is alot stronger then with someone who just buys a PLEX and sells it.
I can understand that guy trying to get that back.
He is not gonna make the bill and say 'oh well I can buy it all back tomorrow'
I can understand him exploding and crossing a line.
Not that this is a smart or acceptable thing to do.

I do not understand the 'fun' one gets out of pushing someone to his breaking point.

Anyway..this thread tells me I have to call my parents tomorrow.
Thank them thousand times for giving me a decent upbringing with a moral compass.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#927 - 2014-03-25 21:13:20 UTC
Malcolm from Marketing wrote:
Sirinda wrote:
I am appaled at what he's doing, but I also get Malcanis' point of view, if it is the one I think it is.

Basically, you can't punish somebody who hasn't broken any rules, and doing so in spite of it would create a dangerous precedent. In that regard, CCP's hands are more or less tied unless they want to invoke their TOS' arbitrary savior clause.

What a lot of people on the pages 1-5 are apparently forgetting is the fact CCP created those rules; there is no reason they couldn't adapt them to the situation.
Failure to do so would border on criminal negligence, IMHO.


Ive said it multiple times to multiple people in this thread.

The Mittani + Fan fest.

It happened, he broke no rules, yet he got a temp ban and was forced from his position. That was the right thing to do in that situation, its also my opinion that Erotica should have all his assets/isk removed and also receive a ban, but i have morals so i guess im in the minority.


A member of BATs was recorded by nulli singing the theam tune to my little pony (badly). They attempted to use it to get us to kick him out of goons. We laughed at this as did our corp member.

We have in the past told people who messed up in a fleet to sing on comms to make amends.

We have gotten people to place plungers on their heads and apologise via a photo of them doing it for crimes they have committed.

I guess you consider these bullying too?
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#928 - 2014-03-25 21:13:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Toshiro Ozuwara wrote:
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Thaylon Sen wrote:
Not only is it a sad reflection on the Game, it's a sad reflection on a society that people like Erotica get their kicks in this way.

What's sadder is all of the people focusing only on what Erotica did, and completely ignoring the real life threats and racism of the so called "victim". Even worse are the people who are equating Eroticas actions with violent sexual assault and real world crimes.

Yes, you make it all sound so melodramatic. Well done Shakespeare.

Nope that's the way it is, people such as yourself are able to completely disregard the racism and threats of physical violence that occurred over some spaceships pixels and instead vilify the recipient of those threats.

Answer this honestly.
Do you feel that Erotica, despite his distasteful way of playing Eve, deserves to have somebody threaten his family and threaten to gut him in real life over some internet spaceships?

I humbly await your no doubt enlightening response.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Gogela
Epic Ganking Time
CODE.
#929 - 2014-03-25 21:13:37 UTC
I find all of this thoroughly entertaining.

I can tell a lot of people haven't listened to the whole audio file. The end is the best part! Pirate

Signatures should be used responsibly...
Forum Clone 77777
Doomheim
#930 - 2014-03-25 21:14:03 UTC
Malcolm from Marketing wrote:
Sirinda wrote:
I am appaled at what he's doing, but I also get Malcanis' point of view, if it is the one I think it is.

Basically, you can't punish somebody who hasn't broken any rules, and doing so in spite of it would create a dangerous precedent. In that regard, CCP's hands are more or less tied unless they want to invoke their TOS' arbitrary savior clause.

What a lot of people on the pages 1-5 are apparently forgetting is the fact CCP created those rules; there is no reason they couldn't adapt them to the situation.
Failure to do so would border on criminal negligence, IMHO.


Ive said it multiple times to multiple people in this thread.

The Mittani + Fan fest.

It happened, he broke no rules, yet he got a temp ban and was forced from his position. That was the right thing to do in that situation, its also my opinion that Erotica should have all his assets/isk removed and also receive a ban, but i have morals so i guess im in the minority.


How is someone calling out, on a live broadcast, to everyone thats listening that "Person X implied he might commit suicide so lets all harrass him and see if its true", comparable to trying to trick someone into singing a song on teamspeak?

I guess we are litterally universes apart in how we think.
Dave Stark
#931 - 2014-03-25 21:14:10 UTC
Don Aubaris wrote:
Seems some people don't understand how much 1 billion is.
If you only have 1 billion in assets you probably worked for it in Eve.
That's not $20 but hours and hours and hours in gameplay.
The emotional tie to that is alot stronger then with someone who just buys a PLEX and sells it.
I can understand that guy trying to get that back.
He is not gonna make the bill and say 'oh well I can buy it all back tomorrow'
I can understand him exploding and crossing a line.
Not that this is a smart or acceptable thing to do.

I do not understand the 'fun' one gets out of pushing someone to his breaking point.

Anyway..this thread tells me I have to call my parents tomorrow.
Thank them thousand times for giving me a decent upbringing with a moral compass.


it's about 8 hours of someone's time, yes he could buy it all back tomorrow.
Sirinda
Ekchuah's Shrine Comporium
#932 - 2014-03-25 21:14:12 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Neltharak Idrissil wrote:
Malcolm from Marketing wrote:
[quote=Malcanis]


I recall CCP found their morals pretty easily when Mittens stepped out of line at Fan fest.
Did he break any laws? No.
Did he break any in game rules? No.

Was what he did morally reprehensible on every level? Yes

This scenario with Erotica, while different in it's approach, boils down to the same basic elements and should be taken seriously by CCP.


Calling for people to kill themselves IS breaking a law. So yes, yes he did and paid for it.


In what country is calling for people to kill themselves against the law? Please link.



Russia, apparently.Shocked

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=de&sl=ru&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ukru.ru%2Fcode%2F07%2F110%2Findex.htm&sandbox=1
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#933 - 2014-03-25 21:14:34 UTC
Don Aubaris wrote:
Seems some people don't understand how much 1 billion is.
If you only have 1 billion in assets you probably worked for it in Eve.
That's not $20 but hours and hours and hours in gameplay.
The emotional tie to that is alot stronger then with someone who just buys a PLEX and sells it.
I can understand that guy trying to get that back.
He is not gonna make the bill and say 'oh well I can buy it all back tomorrow'
I can understand him exploding and crossing a line.
Not that this is a smart or acceptable thing to do.

I do not understand the 'fun' one gets out of pushing someone to his breaking point.

Anyway..this thread tells me I have to call my parents tomorrow.
Thank them thousand times for giving me a decent upbringing with a moral compass.


I have made 250 mil in three days of running level 2 missions. Its not a lot these days.
Salvos Rhoska
#934 - 2014-03-25 21:14:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Let me see if I can construct an analogy that is reasonably relevant and accurate to this:


You are in a casino.
You hold in your possession a stack of the casino's chips.
You are entitled to use these chips, though they nominally actually belong to the casino establishment.

In the course of your activities in the casino, you are approached by a shady individual offering to double your casino chips.
You are such an idiot, that you believe this claim, and hand over your chips to the guy.
He is now, legitimately, holding your chips. You gave them to him. Sucks to be you.

This part of the story ends there, and represents the initial ingame events.
So far, this is all kosher and legit. No problems.


The next part represents what happens OUT of the game, and is far harder to model on the analogy, but Ill try:

The same guy you gave your chips to, who is now holding your chips in HIS pocket, now informs you that in order for the rest of the your doubling to occur, you have to follow him out of the casino establishment, and into a dark alley.

This presents a real problem for you.
He is now legitimately holding your chips. You gave them to him. They are in his pocket.
You have no direct recourse to re-aquiring the chips, except to comply and follow him down that dark alley.
The only way that you can get them back, or have even a hope of getting them back, is to do as he says.

At this point you can either decline, and lose everything, or comply, in the hope that atleast you can get back your own stack of chips and the earlier latent promise of him doubling them is still being offered as an incentive.

The casino, however, does not allow customers to take their chips outside of the establishment.
So the other man deposits your chips, out of his pocket, at the casino door.

You then both leave environment that is the casino, as an establishment with its own set rules of conduct and security on its premises.

You follow him OUTSIDE the casino until eventually you reach a dark alley.

There, other shady men appear, and together, they begin demanding that you perform humiliating and demeaning tasks if you ever want to see your chips again. This continues for a full 2hrs and, because your wife is worried where you got to, she finds you in the alley with these men, being demanded to perform these humiliating tasks for return of your chips.

The men also record the entire activity for purposes of sharing with their "friends", for enjoyment.

All of this happened outside the casino, and the chips are still back in the casino.
They are still OWNED by the casino. The casinos rules have not changed in the meantime.


Now onto the part of what should happen now:

Now, it is informed to the casino staff that there is somebody going around on their business premises offering to double the chips of other clients, pocketing those chips from them, and then taking the victims OUTSIDE THE CASINO down a dark alley for 2hrs of recorded humiliation and demeaning on the false promise of returning those chips to them (which dont actually belong to either of the participants).

I, as the casino manager, upon hearing this, immediately blackball and exclude the shady people from ever doing this to my customers again. I do it for the protection of my customers, for the protection of my chips and for the protection of the reputation of my establishment. I also quite possibly pick up the phone and make a report of these shady individuals to the police.

Anyways, was worth an attempt. Take from it what you will.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Dave Stark
#935 - 2014-03-25 21:14:56 UTC
Gogela wrote:
I find all of this thoroughly entertaining.

I can tell a lot of people haven't listened to the whole audio file. The end is the best part! Pirate


you mean when the poor ikkle victim starts spewing racism and real life threats?
i gotta admit, i lol'd at that.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#936 - 2014-03-25 21:17:22 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Let me see if I can construct an analogy that is reasonably relevant and accurate to this:


You are in a casino.
You hold in your possession a stack of the casino's chips.
You are entitled to use these chips, though they nominally actually belong to the casino establishment.

In the course of your activities in the casino, you are approached by a shady individual offering to double your casino chips.
You are such an idiot, that you believe this claim, and hand over your chips to the guy.
He is now, legitimately, holding your chips. You gave them to him. Sucks to be you.

This part of the story ends there, and represents the initial ingame events.
So far, this is all kosher and legit. No problems.


The next part represents what happens OUT of the game, and is far harder to model on the analogy, but Ill try:

The same guy you gave your chips to, who is now holding your chips in HIS pocket, now informs you that in order for the rest of the your doubling to occur, you have to follow him out of the casino establishment, and into a dark alley.

This presents a real problem for you.
He is now legitimately holding your chips. You gave them to him. They are in his pocket.
You have no direct recourse to re-aquiring the chips, except to comply and follow him down that dark alley.
The only way that you can get them back, or have even a hope of getting them back, is to do as he says.

At this point you can either decline, and lose everything, or comply, in the hope that atleast you can get back your own stack of chips and the earlier latent promise of him doubling them is still being offered as an incentive.

The casino, however, does not allow customers to take their chips outside of the establishment.
So the other man deposits your chips, out of his pocket, at the casino door.

You then both leave environment that is the casino, as an establishment with its own set rules of conduct and security on its premises.

You follow him until eventually you reach a dark alley.

There, other shady men appear, and together, they begin demanding that you perform humiliating and demeaning tasks if you ever want to see your chips again. This continues for a full 2hrs and, because your wife is worried where you got to, she finds you in the alley with these men, being demanded to perform these humiliating tasks for return of your chips.

The men also record the entire activity for purposes of sharing with their "friends", for enjoyment.

All of this happened outside the casino, and the chips are still back in the casino.
They are still OWNED by the casino. The casinos rules have not changed in the meantime.


Now onto the part of what should happen now:

Now, it is informed to the casino staff that there is somebody going around on their business premises offering to double the chips of other clients, pocketing those chips from them, and then taking the victims down a dark alley for 2hrs of recorded humiliation and demeaning on the false promise of returning those chips to them (which dont actually belong to either of the participants).

I, as the casino manager, upon hearing this, immediately blackball and exclude the shady people from ever doing this to my customers again. I do it for the protection of my customers, for the protection of my chips and for the protection of the reputation of my establishment.

Anyways, was worth an attempt. Take from it what you will.
Can I have a TL:DR?

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Navi Annages
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#937 - 2014-03-25 21:17:22 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Gogela wrote:
I find all of this thoroughly entertaining.

I can tell a lot of people haven't listened to the whole audio file. The end is the best part! Pirate


you mean when the poor ikkle victim starts spewing racism and real life threats?
i gotta admit, i lol'd at that.


The end of the audio is just fantastic. I listened to it 3 times. My wife just lawled.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8-JfK-wwFU
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#938 - 2014-03-25 21:17:49 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
blah


And what if his job fires him for gambling?

And racism?

And death threats?

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#939 - 2014-03-25 21:18:54 UTC
It's not about legal issues. It's not about cyber-bullying. It's not even really about Erotic1 (except as a catalyst for this discussion).

What the basic issue is is how far will CCP allow in game harassment to be moved to out of game harassment by total psychopaths?

Will it be addressed when it hit's the gaming press? Social media? Or worse for CCP, when it hits mainstream media and they suddenly are being hammered with requests to hear them justify why they stood by willfully ignoring the behavior that led to someone snapping and hurting themselves or someone else?

How quick did they jump on The Mittani? Why aren't they all over this before it gets out of hand for a change.

This is not going to go away.

Mr Epeen Cool
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#940 - 2014-03-25 21:19:02 UTC
Malcolm from Marketing wrote:
Sirinda wrote:
I am appaled at what he's doing, but I also get Malcanis' point of view, if it is the one I think it is.

Basically, you can't punish somebody who hasn't broken any rules, and doing so in spite of it would create a dangerous precedent. In that regard, CCP's hands are more or less tied unless they want to invoke their TOS' arbitrary savior clause.

What a lot of people on the pages 1-5 are apparently forgetting is the fact CCP created those rules; there is no reason they couldn't adapt them to the situation.
Failure to do so would border on criminal negligence, IMHO.


Ive said it multiple times to multiple people in this thread.

The Mittani + Fan fest.

It happened, he broke no rules, yet he got a temp ban and was forced from his position. That was the right thing to do in that situation, its also my opinion that Erotica should have all his assets/isk removed and also receive a ban, but i have morals so i guess im in the minority.


He was also in a CCP run event. Functionally within CCP's area of responsibility.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016