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Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#741 - 2014-03-25 19:25:54 UTC
Feyth Yinleq wrote:
Let's be clear on what happened and where the problem lies: it lies in the cowardice and lack of morality of Erotica 1.

Drawing a player in the net of the bonus-room scam is easy, as there are many not so smart players in EVE.
But abusing such a "limited" person for more than 2 hours is beyond description in terms of stupidity and lack of conscience.

I believe in Karma and I think these despicable acts will be paid for in due time.

For the moment, I hope CCP does react and does something. If they don't, I will have to cancel my subscription as I don't want to be involved in a game and a community endorsing such activities without raising an eyebrow.



Don't let the door hit any sensitive parts on your way out.
ShipSpin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#742 - 2014-03-25 19:25:55 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
ShipSpin wrote:
That is not true and here's why, see the bold sections.

Quote:
§ 11.443 Harassment.
A person commits a petty misdemeanor if, with purpose to harass another, he or she:
(a) Makes a telephone call without purpose or legitimate communication; or
(b) Insults, taunts or challenges another in a manner likely to provoke violent or disorderly response; or
(c) Makes repeated communications anonymously or at extremely inconvenient hours, or in offensively coarse language; or
(d) Subjects another to an offensive touching; or
(e) Engages in any other course of alarming conduct serving no legitimate purpose.


It IS true from the following bolded sub-section:
(b) Insults, taunts or challenges another in a manner likely to provoke violent or disorderly response; or

The perpetrators (Erotica1 and company) repeatedly challenge the victim to perform demeaning acts, in the form of demands to which the victim is likely to respond in a violent or disorderly fashion rather than acquiescing to the blackmail/extortion implicit in expressing those challenges in the first place.


Correct, which is why I was making the point that it is in fact still harassment despite what Batelle (the person I was responding to) believes and said nearly the same thing you responded to me with.
Jayem See
Perkone
Caldari State
#743 - 2014-03-25 19:26:38 UTC
Quote:
The fact that not everyone reacts the same way does not legitimize a persons conduct.

Most people would run out of a buring house, the fact that one guy would not don't make that the smart thing to do.

Erotica1s only responsibility was to follow the TOS and EULA as best he could, he held ZERO responsibility for the actions of the guy being scammed. The guy being scammed bore the only responsibility to protect himself from in game loss and teamspeak humiliation. He had full control over his computer and his actions and failed to respond in a proper way. Even his own allaince mates (seen in this thread) are saying that.

He also gave verbal consent for the entire thing. It can be heard on the recording.


To some extent I agree. It is totally alien to me how someone could be fooled in this way. Yet some people are.

I guess I have made my point that I find it distasteful. I can't see the pleasure to be derived from driving someone to the point that they lose it so spectacularly.

Despite all the internet lawyering that is going on, I suspect that most people's reactions are purely based on the fact that it goes too far. If you think that what happened is fine then that's your opinion. I disagree and found it distasteful.

I am just repeating myself now so I will shut up and let you lot get on with it.

Aaaaaaand relax.
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
#744 - 2014-03-25 19:27:23 UTC
Wow...37 pages and counting.




This would be a good spot for a TLDR of the thread so far, anyone?

Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?
Malcolm Shinhwa
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#745 - 2014-03-25 19:27:27 UTC
Toshiro Ozuwara wrote:
Malcolm Shinhwa wrote:
But in Eve it is valid game play, not harassment.

A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.


So your problem isn't with the recording or Erotica 1. Its that you think scamming in Eve should be banned. Seems like a different topic than what this thread was about.

[i]"The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in defense. The sword is more important than the shield and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental[/i]."
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#746 - 2014-03-25 19:28:34 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:


so we've had a torture, and sexual assault comparison.
any bets on the next dumb comparison?


We've also already had Hitler, psychopaths, pedophiles, slavery, and violence against homosexuals.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Dave Stark
#747 - 2014-03-25 19:28:45 UTC
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:
Wow...37 pages and counting.




This would be a good spot for a TLDR of the thread so far, anyone?


dumb person did something dumb, some one took advantage of it.
average day in life, and eve, really.

not really much of a story but that's the tl;dr.
Capt Starfox
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#748 - 2014-03-25 19:28:59 UTC
Pew Terror wrote:
Sometimes when i walk by a homeless person near the mall and notice they are pretty weak I just start kicking them in the chins and take their quarters. Then I laugh at them when they tear up realizing that they will have to starve the next few days.

Yeah, preying on the weak and defenseless makes me a pretty hilarious dude!


Cause violently assaulting and robbing someone in real life is comparable to scamming some dude in a video game out of some space bucks?

Abandon all hope ye who x up in fleet
Malcolm Shinhwa
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#749 - 2014-03-25 19:29:00 UTC
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:
Wow...37 pages and counting.




This would be a good spot for a TLDR of the thread so far, anyone?


Missing Persons has you covered:

Do you hear me
Do you care
Do you hear me
Do you care

My lips are moving and the sound's coming out
The words are audible but I have my doubts
That you realize what has been said
You look at me as if you're in a daze
It's like the feeling at the end of the page
When you realize you don't know what you just read

What are words for when no one listens anymore
What are words for when no one listens
What are words for when no one listens it's no use talkin at all

[i]"The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in defense. The sword is more important than the shield and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental[/i]."
Salvos Rhoska
#750 - 2014-03-25 19:30:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Batelle wrote:
Some guy getting embarrassed because he's greedy is in no way comparable to sexual assault.


Greedy?

Erotica1 advertises his services as legit.
The ingame part of this is all well and fine. He can scam his heart out INSIDE EVE.
I agree anyone stupid or greedy enough to fall for the INGAME scam, is legitimately deprived of his ingame assets.

But the "Bonus Room" incident in the recording, happens OUTSIDE of EVE.

At this point the victim has already surrendered his assets to Erotica1 ingame.

Everything that happens in the "Bonus Room" is not a matter of greed, it is a matter of extorting/blackmailing that person against RETURN of those ingame assets, in an OUT OF GAME context.

The victim is not motivated by greed at this point, he is motivated by the extortion/blackmail promise that they will return his assets to him if he meets their extortion/blackmail demands. This, legally, constitutes the introduction of duress.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Toshiro Ozuwara
Perkone
#751 - 2014-03-25 19:30:52 UTC
Malcolm Shinhwa wrote:
So your problem isn't with the recording or Erotica 1. Its that you think scamming in Eve should be banned. Seems like a different topic than what this thread was about.

Why do you keep trying to guess what I think? I never said a word about scamming or banning it.

It didn't take long to locate the tracking beacon, deep inside the quarters for sleepin' They thought they could get away Not today, it's not the way that this kid plays
Feyth Yinleq
Doomheim
#752 - 2014-03-25 19:31:23 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Feyth Yinleq wrote:
Let's be clear on what happened and where the problem lies: it lies in the cowardice and lack of morality of Erotica 1.

Drawing a player in the net of the bonus-room scam is easy, as there are many not so smart players in EVE.
But abusing such a "limited" person for more than 2 hours is beyond description in terms of stupidity and lack of conscience.

I believe in Karma and I think these despicable acts will be paid for in due time.

For the moment, I hope CCP does react and does something. If they don't, I will have to cancel my subscription as I don't want to be involved in a game and a community endorsing such activities without raising an eyebrow.



Don't let the door hit any sensitive parts on your way out.


And you won't have my stuff, don't bother to ask.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#753 - 2014-03-25 19:31:33 UTC
Malcolm Shinhwa wrote:


Missing Persons has you covered:

Do you hear me
Do you care
Do you hear me
Do you care

My lips are moving and the sound's coming out
The words are audible but I have my doubts
That you realize what has been said
You look at me as if you're in a daze
It's like the feeling at the end of the page
When you realize you don't know what you just read

What are words for when no one listens anymore
What are words for when no one listens
What are words for when no one listens it's no use talkin at all


Pink Floyd picks it up from there

Why won't you talk to me
You never talk to me
What are you thinking
What are you feeling
Why won't you talk to me
You never talk to me
What are you thinking
Where do we go from here

It doesn't have to be like this
All we need to do is make sure we keep talking

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Toshiro Ozuwara
Perkone
#754 - 2014-03-25 19:32:00 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
dumb person did something dumb, some one took advantage of it.
average day in life, and eve, really.

not really much of a story but that's the tl;dr.

Did you listen to the recording? Because the issue here isn't scamming and most of your comments seem to be completely missing what has some people very upset.

It didn't take long to locate the tracking beacon, deep inside the quarters for sleepin' They thought they could get away Not today, it's not the way that this kid plays
Erotica 1
Krypteia Operations
#755 - 2014-03-25 19:32:00 UTC
Big Lynx wrote:
Again: how much isk was scammed out of that guy?


Client lost around 1b total when he failed the bonus round.

See Bio for isk doubling rules. If you didn't read bio, chances are you funded those who did.
Anh Emarious
Diplomatic-Incident
#756 - 2014-03-25 19:32:39 UTC
The argument that there is no way for CCP to draw the line and its one step away from things like "what if a DEV does not like gays should he ban them" is ridiculous and has no bearing on this discussion. For one we are discussing the actions of a group of people who did something to elicit pain, humiliation, and drawn out suffering from another player. There was no value at all in their actions. The purpose of the "Bonus Room" is to extend their self smug superiority and humiliate their target. Sure we can all walk away, sure we can all disconnect but that argument is false to. This kind of scam happens in the real world to and people fall for it all the time because scammer's know what buttons to push and how to manipulate thier victem to get what they want. My issue with this has nothing to do with the guy losing his in-game stuff. This is not about the fact he lost $20 worth of space-game pixels. Thats part of EvE and had it stopped their then I doubt anyone would care. My issue is what happened after.

CCP has drawn the line in the past and it could be argued this behavior does cross that line. But in a larger sense this behavior should not be tolerated by any one of us in this game.
ShipSpin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#757 - 2014-03-25 19:32:53 UTC
Marcia en Welle wrote:
ShipSpin wrote:
Capt Starfox wrote:
Guys...

First and foremost Jester Trek's report on the bonus round is bias and not completely accurate. So while you're getting all upset try to remember this and the fact this guy willingly gave all his assets away multiple times. At any point he could have left, but chose to stay. And even after everything that happened, at the very end he still considered singing MORE SONGS!

Torture? Are you serious? I wonder why Jester didn't mention waterboarding, or the breaking of fingers/limbs, or the pulling out of teeth.. etc. Oh, probably because it wouldn't fit into his nice comparison. Again, the person had the choice to stay, or continue. It was always up to him; he and he alone. No one tied him down with rope and forced him to play.

I'm not saying this person in particular didn't go through a difficult time, but comparing it to IRL torture is ********, sad and screaming for attention.



Strip Search Phone Call Scam

The guy called into a McDonald's posing as a police officer, he never once made contact with the other individuals involved. He was injustly incarcerated of his crimes! The people involved at this McDonald's location should have known better! They all consented multiple times to what Mr. Stewart was telling them to do over the phone! Any of the individuals involved could have easily left or hung up the phone but they chose to stay/continue to particpate. /S

Whether you want to believe it or not, psychological abuse alone is still a very serious issue.


I'm afraid you are wrong. Psychological abuse is a very nasty issue, and it goes on all the time, literally everywhere in this ultra competitive world we live. But that is not the reason that man was arrested, the reason was for impersonating a police officer, which most certainly is against the law. If Erotica was impersonating CCP, then I am sure we would see her banned instantly.


I was making a comparison to Capt Starfox's comment about how the individual in this case wasn't forced to stay on voice comms and endure what they did to how the victims of that phone scam at McDonald's weren't forced to stay or follow the orders of a stranger over the phone, yet they still did. My point about the psychological abuse was to indicate that torture is not only limited to just physical harm.
Malcolm Shinhwa
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#758 - 2014-03-25 19:33:21 UTC
Toshiro Ozuwara wrote:
Malcolm Shinhwa wrote:
So your problem isn't with the recording or Erotica 1. Its that you think scamming in Eve should be banned. Seems like a different topic than what this thread was about.

Why do you keep trying to guess what I think? I never said a word about scamming or banning it.


Just trying to follow your logic that goes from someone willingly participating with the ability to quit at ANY time to harrasement. Your follow ups indicate to me that you're real problem was with the scam all along. Feel free to correct my misconceptions. I'll happily let any clarification you make stand for your opinion on the subject.

[i]"The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in defense. The sword is more important than the shield and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental[/i]."
Salvos Rhoska
#759 - 2014-03-25 19:33:45 UTC
Erotica 1 wrote:
Big Lynx wrote:
Again: how much isk was scammed out of that guy?


Client lost around 1b total when he failed the bonus round.


Its no longer a "client", as you refer to him in an ingame context, when you are dealing with him outside of the game.

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#760 - 2014-03-25 19:34:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Salvos Rhoska wrote:

Greedy?

Erotica1 advertises his services as legit.
As has every con artist ever.

Quote:
The ingame part of this is all well and fine. He can scam his heart out INSIDE EVE.

But the "Bonus Room" incident in the recording, happens OUTSIDE of EVE.

At this point the victim has already surrendered his assets to Erotica1 ingame.

Everything that happens in the "Bonus Room" is not a matter of greed, it is a matter of extorting/blackmailing that person against RETURN of those ingame assets, in an OUT OF GAME context.

The victim is not motivated by greed at this point, he is motivated by the extortion/blackmail promise that they will return his assets to him if he meets their extortion/blackmail demands.
Correct, he is dumb enough to believe that a con artist is going to give him his stuff back, despite all of the evidence to the contrary that is available by typing Erotica 1 into Google.

If people attach such an immense emotional value to things that they don't actually own they should exercise due diligence before giving them to a stranger on the internet.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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