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[Rubicon 1.3] T1 Frigate and Cruiser Balance Pass

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Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#281 - 2014-03-10 01:43:24 UTC
An extra slot would be interesting. The Old Nag keeps popping into my head though P
Zakeus Djinn
Who Called In The Fleet
#282 - 2014-03-10 01:55:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Zakeus Djinn
This may have been mentioned earlier in the thread, but I think the Rifter should trade its utility high slot for a medium slot. An additional medium slot would allow a large variation in fitting, from shield tanks to armor tanks with dual webs or web and TD, or even a dual prop fit. This kind of versatility would be quite unique among frigates, as the only other ship with a 3/4/3 slot layout is the merlin, a ship firmly locked into shield tanking. No other ship except the merlin has 4 mid slots (enough to have prop, web and scram in addition to a shield tank, or allow for dual prop or EWAR if armor tanked) and also have 3 low slots (so it can also effectively armor tank). Meanwhile the utility high slot fails to add anything to the Rifter that the slasher can't already do better. Essentially, swapping a high slot for a medium slot allows for unmatched versatility in fitting.

EDIT: This would include adjusting fitting to be capable of making use of the additional slot.
Milton Middleson
Rifterlings
#283 - 2014-03-10 03:47:40 UTC
The Rifter barely has the fitting to use the slots it has. Swapping a utility high to a mid or low would require a pretty substantial fittings increase if you wanted something other than fitting mods or 0-cost mods to go in them.
Zakeus Djinn
Who Called In The Fleet
#284 - 2014-03-10 04:51:18 UTC
Sorry, I thought the slot change implied a fitting change as well; I have made an edit to my previous post for clarity.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#285 - 2014-03-10 09:53:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Harvey James
i still think the support cruisers bonuses are OP ... 1000% to rep range is crazy high!!
i think it also points too rep modules being a little too short range..

4800 km
6000 km
8400 km

it doesn't follow the usual 100% increase in range per size increase..

6000km
9000km
13500km

so how about a 50% range increase on remote rep modules per size increase?
it would certainly help spider tanking on battleships and the nestor by proxy..

then a 600% bonus on support cruisers would get about 54km

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
The Lobsters
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#286 - 2014-03-10 10:02:28 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
The Lobsters wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
I did some efting, and rifter will still be lolrifter. other than the usual boring fixes, I was thinking CCP could just try +1 highslot. utility highs really aren't equal to another slot on frigates, imo. it'd be pretty cool to have 2 unbonused rockets, or some cap warfare on there, with appropriate fitting buffs.


I'd take swapping the high for another low, if the Rifter is really supposed to be the tank/gank model of the combat frigs like they said. Getting a decent arty kite fit is still going to be hard.


the usual boring fixes


^^

That man is the noblest creature may be inferred from the fact that no other creature has contested his claim.
sten mattson
Red Sky Morning
The Amarr Militia.
#287 - 2014-03-10 17:56:06 UTC  |  Edited by: sten mattson
people dont seem to realise the extreme utility that a utility highs give you. There is a reason the hurricane and rupture were nerfed the way they were.

-oh , you're pointed by that slasher orbiting you at 500m and its tanking your measly drone dmg? slap on a neut and he wont be doing that for long

-oh, you got tackle on that cruiser/BC/BS and he's neuting you? Put on a NOS and you can hold the point indefintely, or alt least until someone got secondary point. It might not be enough to run your repper constantly , but at least you can run it once in a while. Look! you can even run your guns (poor tormentor/maller/omen Sad )

-oh, you wanna do a RR gang? too bad you dont have any utility highs anymore, gotta drop one of the guns! (poor maller Sad )

-oh , you wanna fit a cyno , but dont wanna give it away immediatly that you have one fitted? tough luck, you will have to drop one of those guns...

-oh you wanna have a probe launcher so you dont have to launch that mobile depot everytime you wanna find the next exit/site?

I could go on.

Imagine if they took away the punisher's utility high and added a mid? you'd think nobody would fly the torm anymore?

WRONG

The punisher would still suffer the exact same problem the tormentor has, but even worse: the ship would have a *very* limited time to kill its target/run away before it runs out of cap on its guns+ ewar alone. im talking less than 30 seconds. On the other hand , with a NOS i dont have that problem.

The problem only becomes bigger with cruisers. It is insanely hard next to impossible to get rid of a frig on you unless you have a neut. Too bad our glorious devs in their infinite wisdom took away the utility high on the maller, im sure those 3 drones will kill that rifter fast enough before his gang arrives....

Utility highs are a wildcard and is only limited by your own imagination. They bring diversity to the fittings.

IMMA FIRING MA LAZAR!!!
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#288 - 2014-03-10 18:06:11 UTC
on frigates they're pretty useless
Milton Middleson
Rifterlings
#289 - 2014-03-10 19:12:25 UTC
no i want to hear more about combat RR cyno frigates.
sten mattson
Red Sky Morning
The Amarr Militia.
#290 - 2014-03-10 19:15:24 UTC  |  Edited by: sten mattson
say that next time you try to hold tackle on a cruiser long enough for your fleet to arrive.

granted , a frigate neut wont neut out anything other than another frigate, but tbh isnt that the point of neuts? be an inconvenience to a similar sized target unless on specialised hulls, very strong against smaller targets and just useless on bigger targets. We all know the sorry state of beeing neuted out, if you dont , you clearly havent found good enemies, or you are just part of the f1 blob. What would happen if a single frigate neut could neut out a cruiser?

on the other side of the spectrum you got the NOS wich is useless on larger hulls, may sometimes work on similar sized vessels and is very strong on small vessels against larger foes. The NOS keeps your cap alive so you rep/shoot/neut/harden that much longer despite beeing counter neuted (ok not that powerful , but you get the drift).

what ends up happening is on smaller vessels NOSs are encouraged , and on bigger vessels neuts are encouraged.

if you loose utility highs , you loose that the capacitor warfare aspect of teh game and turns the game into just making sure that you dont neut yourself out and put out more dmg than your opponent. pretty boring after a while, heh?

IMMA FIRING MA LAZAR!!!
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#291 - 2014-03-10 20:54:24 UTC
I don't really like the rifter change. It always used to be that the falloff bonus was more of a faction / T2 thing so like angel ships and the Vargur etc. With the more expensive ships it makes more sense to fit faction tackle that you would need to make the most of the falloff bonus.

To me the tracking bonus on the rifter was always nice because it made it easier to hit stuff and since projectiles have the lowest damage good hits were kind of important. Now I think you are going to see more rifters fit out as if they were Dramiels or Daredevils. I'm not convinced that's a plus.

Want to talk? Join Cara's channel in game: House Forelli
Ines Tegator
Serious Business Inc. Ltd. LLC. etc.
#292 - 2014-03-10 23:45:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Ines Tegator
sten mattson wrote:

if you loose utility highs , you loose that the capacitor warfare aspect of teh game and turns the game into just making sure that you dont neut yourself out and put out more dmg than your opponent. pretty boring after a while, heh?


Nobody is asking for utility highs to be removed, at least that I saw. They are asking for utility highs on frigates to be removed because they are useless, or for small neuts to be rebalanced to make those slots useful.

There's a very small niche for frigate NOS on a heavy tackler, but that usually doesn't work well due to gang mates shooing the frigate away in pieces. I miss the U-High on the Malediction cause it was one of the few (aka only) tacklers that could survive doing this. On general combat frigates these slots are nothing but heat sinks.

Overhaul Dscan!
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#293 - 2014-03-11 16:03:07 UTC
I think the Caracal gets one of the biggest changes in this pass because most of the rest is one tiny step forward one tiny step backward. If it's just pushing random buttons there are monkeys stuck in zoo's, ccp could train them to do the job for free.

#abortionofathread
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#294 - 2014-03-11 16:15:53 UTC
Ines Tegator wrote:
sten mattson wrote:

if you loose utility highs , you loose that the capacitor warfare aspect of teh game and turns the game into just making sure that you dont neut yourself out and put out more dmg than your opponent. pretty boring after a while, heh?


Nobody is asking for utility highs to be removed, at least that I saw. They are asking for utility highs on frigates to be removed because they are useless, or for small neuts to be rebalanced to make those slots useful.

There's a very small niche for frigate NOS on a heavy tackler, but that usually doesn't work well due to gang mates shooing the frigate away in pieces. I miss the U-High on the Malediction cause it was one of the few (aka only) tacklers that could survive doing this. On general combat frigates these slots are nothing but heat sinks.


just drop a launcher
Bob Niac
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#295 - 2014-03-11 16:35:43 UTC
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Bob Niac wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hello everyone!

=snip=

Cruisers:
The Augoror, Maller and Omen are getting the Amarr increased mass increased speed treatment, and there are also several other minor tweaks here and there.



OSPREY:
+10 m/s
+0.02 inertia
-130000 mass

Thanks for reading, and we look forward to your feedback.


sweet jeebus thank you! Does this transfer to the T2 variants?


Buffing logi? Are you on drugs?



Just hoping I can dust off my fleet Bassy.

[u]I <3 Logistics:[/u] Pilot of all  T2 logi and my shiny Archon [deceased.] Also a Chimera which may or may not be horrid. I don't make games, I play them. I get that ppl are passionate about change. I post here to plant seeds. You see your idea as is? Holy **** you win! So let's post, and see what the DEVs and our peers use.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#296 - 2014-03-11 16:58:06 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Ines Tegator wrote:
sten mattson wrote:

if you loose utility highs , you loose that the capacitor warfare aspect of teh game and turns the game into just making sure that you dont neut yourself out and put out more dmg than your opponent. pretty boring after a while, heh?


Nobody is asking for utility highs to be removed, at least that I saw. They are asking for utility highs on frigates to be removed because they are useless, or for small neuts to be rebalanced to make those slots useful.

There's a very small niche for frigate NOS on a heavy tackler, but that usually doesn't work well due to gang mates shooing the frigate away in pieces. I miss the U-High on the Malediction cause it was one of the few (aka only) tacklers that could survive doing this. On general combat frigates these slots are nothing but heat sinks.


just drop a launcher

Wow, I seriously hope you two are trolling... because your both old enough to know better.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#297 - 2014-03-11 17:10:00 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Ines Tegator wrote:
sten mattson wrote:

if you loose utility highs , you loose that the capacitor warfare aspect of teh game and turns the game into just making sure that you dont neut yourself out and put out more dmg than your opponent. pretty boring after a while, heh?


Nobody is asking for utility highs to be removed, at least that I saw. They are asking for utility highs on frigates to be removed because they are useless, or for small neuts to be rebalanced to make those slots useful.

There's a very small niche for frigate NOS on a heavy tackler, but that usually doesn't work well due to gang mates shooing the frigate away in pieces. I miss the U-High on the Malediction cause it was one of the few (aka only) tacklers that could survive doing this. On general combat frigates these slots are nothing but heat sinks.


just drop a launcher

Wow, I seriously hope you two are trolling... because your both old enough to know better.


you're bad
Arana Tellen
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#298 - 2014-03-11 18:37:13 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Ransu Asanari wrote:
I'm honestly not a fan of the Breacher ROF change. Having the damage bonus not be type-specific meant it was one of the few ships that could actually use the missile advantage of selectable damage, and was very versatile. I really enjoyed flying the Breacher during the Stay Frosty Frigate FFA and used this to great effect.

Changing this to a ROF bonus feels like a nerf, since it means you're doing less damage between reloads and you're running out of ammo faster.


I think you'll find that the increase in dps will be significant enough to more than balance out the more common reloads.


The DPS increase is tiny: 105.26% vs 105.00%

I don't think that 0.26% extra damage over time is going to swing any fights. What is relevent is that the Breacher will get it's extra volley in more often.


How on earth did you get elected?

1 × 1.25 = 1.25 (5% damage bonus over 5 levels)
1 ÷ 0.75 = 1.33 (5% r of bonus over 5 levels)

A rof bonus gets better and better every level.
Joanna RB
JoJo Industries n Shipbreakers
#299 - 2014-03-11 18:41:02 UTC
Glad to see the Rifter buff - it seems up until now the 'tiericide' had completely shafted the then-popular Minmatar ships - now we just need some more love for the Tempest.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#300 - 2014-03-11 19:48:37 UTC
Joanna RB wrote:
Glad to see the Rifter buff - it seems up until now the 'tiericide' had completely shafted the then-popular Minmatar ships - now we just need some more love for the Tempest.


you'll still need major rifter and projectile love after this buff, it really doesn't change much.