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Tactical shield manipulation

Author
Ellendras Silver
CrashCat Corporation
#1 - 2014-03-08 09:22:47 UTC
Description:
Quote:
Skill at preventing damage from penetrating the shield, including the use of shield hardeners and other advanced shield modules. Reduces the chance of damage penetrating the shield when it falls below 25% by 5% per skill level, with 0% chance at level 5.


it sounds like its useful and has a purpose of training it, to level 4 this is of course true to use T2 modules. but to level 5 sounds useful but it is not, the description is clear if shield is below 25% you have (as i read it) 80% chance it penetrates the shield when shield is below 25% if you have it at level 4 and at level 5 it is 0% i have it trained at level 4 but i NEVER in 3 years of EVE saw my shield penetrated before it was completely gone. there isn't a single module that benefits from the skill at level 5 so i don't see much of a reason to train it to level 5.

[u]Carpe noctem[/u]

Frank Millar
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2014-03-08 11:04:04 UTC
People have had threadnoughts over this, and no, it's not worth training to V. Ever.
Ellendras Silver
CrashCat Corporation
#3 - 2014-03-08 11:05:22 UTC
Frank Millar wrote:
People have had threadnoughts over this, and no, it's not worth training to V. Ever.


my point is that the skill isnt working as it should if it did it could be worh training it to 5

[u]Carpe noctem[/u]

Sable Moran
Moran Light Industries
#4 - 2014-03-08 11:59:09 UTC
The skills IS working as advertised. It's just difficult to see in practice, especially so if you fly small ships. Try to test it out on SiSi if you're still skeptical, there you can control the incoming damage so you have more time to observe the effect from the skill.

Sable's Ammo Shop at Alentene V - Moon 4 - Duvolle Labs Factory. Hybrid charges, Projectile ammo, Missiles, Drones, Ships, Need'em? We have'em, at affordable prices. Pop in at our Ammo Shop in sunny Alentene.

Aivo Dresden
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#5 - 2014-03-08 12:19:01 UTC
There have been threadnoughts over this yes. Generally it's accepted that level 4 is better. The reason being that for shield tankers, you can effectively "increase" your shield HP by letting a bit of damage slip through. Letting a bit of damage slip through means you can get some more passive shield recharge in, kind of giving you just a little more shields.

There are others who would argue that when using a strong active tank, you want it at 5 so you can tank the maximum amount of damage on your shields.

Level 4 is required for t2 hardeners, and if I recall correctly level 5 used to be required for some capital shield modules but that changed some time ago. Now personally I feel there's really no reason to train it to 5 anymore.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#6 - 2014-03-09 02:56:38 UTC
Sable Moran wrote:
The skills IS working as advertised. It's just difficult to see in practice, especially so if you fly small ships.

^^This

Capitals have enough shield that 5% is significant, and once upon a time TSM 5 was a prerequisite for Capital Shield Booster.

If you find your ship exploding because of a loss a of hull integrity with shield between 0% to 5%, then by all means train TSM 5.
Hadrian Blackstone
Yamato Holdings
#7 - 2014-03-10 05:36:14 UTC
That always seemed like the weirdest description ever. It makes it seem as though if you have it to V, damage will never penetrate your shield if it gets to 25% therefore your ship should never blow up because it will always have at least 25% shield. Because incoming fire has a 0% chance of getting through the shield.

I know that's not the way it works but I feel like it could be better described. Either that or I don't understand the mechanic.
Corp 5py
Doomheim
#8 - 2014-03-11 08:06:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Corp 5py
I went ahead and trained that to V on my main a few months ago.
Reason is, over the years I've seen many a BS shields hover in the 1..5..10% range under logi reps, and the ones that didn't have the skill at V typically bled more damage to armor/hull, and some even popped.

The way I see it, the damage instead of being softened up by the high shield resists. The bled through hit, it hits (or part of it hits) the lower armors resist below, taking a bigger chunk of HP away, thus it's better to take everything on the shield than to let it bleed.
unidenify
Deaf Armada
Deaf and Daft
#9 - 2014-03-13 17:07:38 UTC
Aivo Dresden wrote:
There have been threadnoughts over this yes. Generally it's accepted that level 4 is better. The reason being that for shield tankers, you can effectively "increase" your shield HP by letting a bit of damage slip through. Letting a bit of damage slip through means you can get some more passive shield recharge in, kind of giving you just a little more shields.

There are others who would argue that when using a strong active tank, you want it at 5 so you can tank the maximum amount of damage on your shields.

Level 4 is required for t2 hardeners, and if I recall correctly level 5 used to be required for some capital shield modules but that changed some time ago. Now personally I feel there's really no reason to train it to 5 anymore.


I assume it is same for Shield damage compensation

given that it affect only shield amplifier and almost no one use it. I assume it is pretty useless.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#10 - 2014-03-13 18:30:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
unidenify wrote:
I assume it is same for Shield damage compensation

given that it affect only shield amplifier and almost no one use it. I assume it is pretty useless.

EM Compensation 5 is the most worthwhile to train, as it is common to fit an EM amp to fill in the resist hole.

There are niche passive resist fits that make training all the shield compensations to 5 worthwhile.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4200517#post4200517

https://www.google.com/search?q=site:forums.eveonline.com+cabalander+shield+compensation
Aivo Dresden
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#11 - 2014-03-15 11:23:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Aivo Dresden
unidenify wrote:
I assume it is same for Shield damage compensation
given that it affect only shield amplifier and almost no one use it. I assume it is pretty useless.

They used to work differently, they used to also give a resist bonus to active hardeners when turned off. That changed about 2y back tho.

There aren't many fits that make good use of passive shield hardeners, however I've use them a lot in the past on a Rattlesnake. Mainly because it makes your tank completely neut immune, which is one of the main issues you'll run in to with certain Blood Raider complexes. Probably the same reason Tau fitted his WH Tengu like that, your tank doesn't depend on your cap to work.
Ellendras Silver
CrashCat Corporation
#12 - 2014-05-18 12:29:55 UTC
Sable Moran wrote:
The skills IS working as advertised. It's just difficult to see in practice, especially so if you fly small ships. Try to test it out on SiSi if you're still skeptical, there you can control the incoming damage so you have more time to observe the effect from the skill.


i dare too disagree i never saw any damage taken when under 25% shields when i had the skill at lvl 4 and i should have a 80% chance to get armor/hull damage so almost all damage should go to armor/hull.

[u]Carpe noctem[/u]

RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#13 - 2014-05-18 17:38:36 UTC
Ellendras Silver wrote:
Sable Moran wrote:
The skills IS working as advertised. It's just difficult to see in practice, especially so if you fly small ships. Try to test it out on SiSi if you're still skeptical, there you can control the incoming damage so you have more time to observe the effect from the skill.


i dare too disagree i never saw any damage taken when under 25% shields when i had the skill at lvl 4 and i should have a 80% chance to get armor/hull damage so almost all damage should go to armor/hull.


If you had the skill at IV, then you won't see bleed through until you are at your LAST 5% of shields. Then it is random based.
Torrent Talon
Metaphysical Quantum Anomaly Research Laboratory
#14 - 2014-05-19 12:18:34 UTC
actually you'd be surprised, if you have the skill at level 4 and you're shield tanked with no DC and an arty ship alphas you and does pen, then you'd pop with 5% shield left, more useful in incursions than anything really
Admiral Yamamoto
Perkone
Caldari State
#15 - 2014-05-28 03:17:25 UTC
Trained it to 5 when it was required for capital shield reps.
Hulk Miner
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#16 - 2014-05-28 14:26:31 UTC
Admiral Yamamoto wrote:
Trained it to 5 when it was required for capital shield reps.



^^^ THIS ^^^


Was the only reason to train it level 5 in game terms.


For eve board OCD guys who like the 'shiny shiny gold' level 5 always.
Jack Miton
Holesale
Holesale Operations
#17 - 2014-05-29 22:58:25 UTC
It's actually actively beneficial to have it at 4, not 5, since it will let the last bits of your shield stay up longer which gives you marginally longer to catch reps from logi/boosters ect.

There is no Bob.

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Fal Dara
Free Terrans League
Legendary-Rejects
#18 - 2014-06-09 22:26:41 UTC
trained it to 5 ages ago, it was mandatory for some capital mod (siege mods? carrier triage? think it was triage mod)...

anyway, ccp stated a long time ago, that the 'bleed' damage one recieves from the hole left by not training this skill, is multiplicative...

in otherwords, it doesnt JUST let the damage through the shields--it damages the shields, AND armor--so something that hits for 500 damage, hits for 500 on the shields, AND armor. if the skill was up to 4/5 ... then it stays in the shields.

maybe they fixed that ... but i dont recall them ever saying it was a bug. i believe it was intentional, giving people a reason to train the skill... because letting damage bleed to armor without it getting attached to shields would be motivation to not train the skill in active tanks.

the damage is recieved in shields AND armor when it bleeds.

Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#19 - 2014-06-09 22:40:23 UTC
Fal Dara wrote:
trained it to 5 ages ago, it was mandatory for some capital mod (siege mods? carrier triage? think it was triage mod)...

anyway, ccp stated a long time ago, that the 'bleed' damage one recieves from the hole left by not training this skill, is multiplicative...

in otherwords, it doesnt JUST let the damage through the shields--it damages the shields, AND armor--so something that hits for 500 damage, hits for 500 on the shields, AND armor. if the skill was up to 4/5 ... then it stays in the shields.

maybe they fixed that ... but i dont recall them ever saying it was a bug. i believe it was intentional, giving people a reason to train the skill... because letting damage bleed to armor without it getting attached to shields would be motivation to not train the skill in active tanks.

the damage is recieved in shields AND armor when it bleeds.


Unfortunately this is not what testing has proven.

Plus this has already been discussed to death in other TSM threads.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2644910#post2644910
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#20 - 2014-06-23 17:23:27 UTC
You need to train it to lvl 5 so all the skill dots in the shields section are the same. You can't have just one missing dot of skill. This is about uniformity guys, not some mere 5% bonus. Step back and look at the big picture.
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