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Faction Warfare and Low sec Cyno Jams

Author
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2014-03-07 14:29:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
During a previous fanfest, CCP spoke about changes to low sec and faction warfare mechanics. Those changes have now been implemented in some form of another but there is one feature that did not make it into the game - Allow faction warfare people to cyno jam systems.

Some players claimed that allowing players to do this would effect the moon mining/farming activities of null sec entities and as a result, null sec groups would try to take over faction warfare.

My question is "so what?"... If more people got involved with faction warfare, wouldn't that be a good thing? Shouldn't low sec be a place where smaller groups can thrive and also take advantage of the potential profits in that space?

Thoughts?
Inxentas Ultramar
Ultramar Independent Contracting
#2 - 2014-03-07 15:13:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Inxentas Ultramar
Dunno about your region, but mine is already completely usurped by null entities owning every moon or POCO that is worth a damn. So as CEO of a small lowsec-based group my answer would indeed be so what, as we are incapable of holding onto anything that is desirable to a larger nullsec group anyway. The same blobs used in structure warfare can be bridged in one system ahead, and cynojams don't block outgoing cynojumps AFAIK so it would not be a terrible strain on their logistics.
Mehashi 'Kho
New Eden Motion Pictures
#3 - 2014-03-07 15:25:58 UTC
Mobile Cynosural Inhibitor ?
Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#4 - 2014-03-07 15:29:02 UTC
Mehashi 'Kho wrote:
Mobile Cynosural Inhibitor ?


Not relevant to what OP is talking about.
Inxentas Ultramar
Ultramar Independent Contracting
#5 - 2014-03-07 15:51:16 UTC
The difference being a mobile jammer only works within a certain radius for a limited amount of time, not throughout the entire system indefinately.
ArmyOfMe
Moist Wanted.
OnlyFleets.
#6 - 2014-03-07 16:17:56 UTC
Cyno jams in low sec would basicly make it the same as 0,0.
All you would be missing was bubbles.

GM Guard > I must ask you not to use the petition option like this again but i personally would finish the chicken sandwich first so it won´t go to waste. The spaghetti will keep and you can use it the next time you get hungry. Best regards.

Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2014-03-07 16:31:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
ArmyOfMe wrote:
Cyno jams in low sec would basicly make it the same as 0,0.
All you would be missing was bubbles.


... And bombs and SOV warfare and player owned stations and super production. Blink

If anything, i think the ability to have a system wide cyno jam in low sec would make that area of space even more unique. The situation right now is that big alliances can use their caps to steam roll the moons in a few systems and then leave never to return. Then, the only activities these alliance perform in those low sec systems is maintain their pos and occasionally bridging fuel in.

So, is this really how you feel FW should work?
Amanda Rosewater
Universal Express
#8 - 2014-03-07 19:06:12 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
ArmyOfMe wrote:
Cyno jams in low sec would basicly make it the same as 0,0.
All you would be missing was bubbles.


... And bombs and SOV warfare and player owned stations and super production. Blink

If anything, i think the ability to have a system wide cyno jam in low sec would make that area of space even more unique. The situation right now is that big alliances can use their caps to steam roll the moons in a few systems and then leave never to return. Then, the only activities these alliance perform in those low sec systems is maintain their pos and occasionally bridging fuel in.

So, is this really how you feel FW should work?


A) this should be in F&I, not GD forum

B) This right here is where your argument falls flat. You make the mistake of throwing moon mining into FW. Moon mining has nothing to do with FW. So basically, you want to cyno jam FW systems so that you can moon mine instead of the big boys who currently own the moons. THAT, has nothing to do with FW.

C) Ignoring A and B, still no. You can cyno jam in SOV 0.0 because the alliance owns the system and has exclusive right to do with it what it wants to. FW LS should not be cyno-jammable because the owning FW alliance does NOT have the same level of exclusive rights. There is still limited governance from CONCORD, and non-faction warfare people have equal rights to cyno in and out of systems as the FW alliance controlling the system. On the surface, a work-around would be to cyno-jam the system to opposing factions, but that is so easy to work around its not even worth this sentence to mention.


To re-phrase your question: CCP, I can't kick the big boys off their money moons, so use FW as an excuse to make it easier for me.

Answer: No.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#9 - 2014-03-07 19:16:24 UTC
Amanda Rosewater wrote:

C) Ignoring A and B, still no. You can cyno jam in SOV 0.0 because the alliance owns the system and has exclusive right to do with it what it wants to. FW LS should not be cyno-jammable because the owning FW alliance does NOT have the same level of exclusive rights. There is still limited governance from CONCORD, and non-faction warfare people have equal rights to cyno in and out of systems as the FW alliance controlling the system. On the surface, a work-around would be to cyno-jam the system to opposing factions, but that is so easy to work around its not even worth this sentence to mention.


FW is very sov-like, i suspect its more a design issue of implementing it rather than some idea that it shouldn't be allowed just cuz its FW. The stumbling block being that there is no player-king of FW to make the decision to jam or not jam.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.

Irya Boone
The Scope
#10 - 2014-03-07 20:25:09 UTC
Or .. just put Da restriction !!

If Not in the faction controlling the system ...

no docking rights ( even neutrals)
No poco ownership available.
no moon mining available etc etc

CCP it's time to remove Off Grid Boost and Put Them on Killmail too, add Logi on killmails .... Open that damn door !!

you shall all bow and pray BoB

Caviar Liberta
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2014-03-07 20:44:02 UTC
Domanique Altares wrote:
Mehashi 'Kho wrote:
Mobile Cynosural Inhibitor ?


Not relevant to what OP is talking about.


I remember there was talk of being able to cyno jam a system for short period of time if the faction controlled the system.
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2014-03-07 21:19:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Amanda Rosewater wrote:

B) You make the mistake of throwing moon mining into FW. Moon mining has nothing to do with FW. So basically, you want to cyno jam FW systems so that you can moon mine instead of the big boys who currently own the moons. THAT, has nothing to do with FW.


IMO the moons in faction warfare space SHOULD be part of FW. Why do you feel that people who do not take part in the day to day goings on in low sec, should have one of the most precious resources?

Amanda Rosewater wrote:

C) Ignoring A and B, still no. You can cyno jam in SOV 0.0 because the alliance owns the system and has exclusive right to do with it what it wants to. FW LS should not be cyno-jammable because the owning FW alliance does NOT have the same level of exclusive rights.


Isn't faction warfare all about the fight to control low sec systems? I would think that the the controlling factions could do pretty much whatever they wanted.



Batelle wrote:

FW is very sov-like, i suspect its more a design issue of implementing it rather than some idea that it shouldn't be allowed just cuz its FW. The stumbling block being that there is no player-king of FW to make the decision to jam or not jam.


That is a good point and i'm very curious as to how CCP intended it to work? I have next to no idea how FW works, so perhaps someone with more experience could suggest a way...
Inxentas Ultramar
Ultramar Independent Contracting
#13 - 2014-03-07 22:58:35 UTC
Lore-wise, and extremely simplified, the Jove basicly allow the factions to fight each other with smaller militias in border regions. Should the factions up the ante too much, the Jove will basicly step in and slap them back into the stone age. It basicly prevents all out war, which already happened at some point in New Eden's history, and was quite an unpleasant affair. That's basicly the validation for the whole small-scale thing and why it's not intended for cap warfare. Probably also explains why moons are not tied to FW mechanics, despite being quite impressive military structures.

If you'd want to incorporate moons into actual FW, why not cynojam all FW systems permanently and allow only further anchorage of small and medium sized POS? Or is that too radical?
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#14 - 2014-03-07 23:16:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Batelle
Inxentas Ultramar wrote:
If you'd want to incorporate moons into actual FW, why not cynojam all FW systems permanently and allow only further anchorage of small and medium sized POS? Or is that too radical?


This would suck for everybody. Nullsec alliances using FW systems in their routes to hisec (putting whole regions off-limits is a pretty big deal). It would also suck for FW pilots and pirates that use carriers and JFs for basic logistics.

Inxentas Ultramar wrote:
Lore-wise, and extremely simplified, the Jove basicly allow the factions to fight each other with smaller militias in border regions.


That's news to me. I'd be interested to learn more about that aspect of the lore.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.

Bloodmyst Ranwar
State War Academy
Caldari State
#15 - 2014-03-08 00:51:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Bloodmyst Ranwar
I'm not sure about the whole cyno jam in low sec thing. But something does need to happen in regards to all the null sec entities owning all the R32/64 moons in low. At the moment their power projection is just rediculous considering how fast they can travel around anywhere via the jump bridge.

Excluding womholes, all this game seems to be about is the big null sec blocks CFC/RUS and N3PL. It's doesn't matter if you are in NPC Null Sec, Sov Null, Low Sec, Faction Warefare Low Sec or even High Sec, these large Null Sec blocks have their hands in everything. As someone who regularly roams through Sov null sec quiet often, it's pathetic how much owned and unused space there is.

CCP needs to give these null sec entities more to worry about in null sec where they simply can't afford the time/work/isk/effort to even worry about hogging all the decent moons in low sec.
Lady Naween
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#16 - 2014-03-08 01:12:47 UTC
And what about those of us that like lowsec but want no part of your silly button orbi.. I mean faction warfare.
Darek Castigatus
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#17 - 2014-03-08 02:22:24 UTC
Also lol at people who think low sec entities dont own a lot of the infrastructure in the areas we live in, try actually paying attention next time you fly through.

Pirates - The Invisible Fist of Darwin

you're welcome

Mehashi 'Kho
New Eden Motion Pictures
#18 - 2014-03-08 02:50:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Mehashi 'Kho
Caviar Liberta wrote:
Domanique Altares wrote:
Mehashi 'Kho wrote:
Mobile Cynosural Inhibitor ?


Not relevant to what OP is talking about.


I remember there was talk of being able to cyno jam a system for short period of time if the faction controlled the system.

Ah fair enough I hadn't heard that.

I like the mobile thingy, and if the fw was some sort of LP costing temporary doohikky, like the mobile thing but system wide, I could get with that.

Inxentas Ultramar wrote:
The difference being a mobile jammer only works within a certain radius for a limited amount of time, not throughout the entire system indefinately.


But here the suggestion of a permanent cyno inhibitor covering low sec fw systems. I don't have many cap kills but enough to say that they still have their place in fw, for better or worse. Not to mention the pain of logistics f you couldn't use carriers or jump freighters! Indefinate jams would be bad imho, though the temporary ones with a cost associated seem more reasonable.
Bloodmyst Ranwar
State War Academy
Caldari State
#19 - 2014-03-08 06:33:00 UTC
Darek Castigatus wrote:
Also lol at people who think low sec entities dont own a lot of the infrastructure in the areas we live in, try actually paying attention next time you fly through.


Nobody here is denying the low sec entities own infrastructure in low sec. But go around and survey how many R32/64 moons there are in low sec and let me know how many low sec entities own them versus the null sec blocks who own them. I can 100% assure you most of them are owned by the null sec blocks.

Go to high sec, null sec blocks are taking over the POCOS.....
Go to low sec, null sec blocks own most of the R32/64 moons...
Go to SOV null, and find all the wasted empty space the null sec entities own... (blue ring anyone?)
Go to some of the C1/C2 wormholes and many null sec entities have their industry POS's in there...
Go to Faction Warfare space and find many of the plex farming alts are null sec entity alts...

My point is, clearly there isn't much going on with Null Sec. Well not enough to keep these guys occupied in their own space. Doesn't leave too much to the smaller corps now does it?

In my opinion, CCP needs to give the smaller guy something to grasp on which can project some kind of power that puts these null sec blocks on the back foot (currently siphon units are a joke). Either that, or somehow penalise such expansion from those guys. If not, is Eve Online about blobbing and simply having larger numbers CCP? If it is, well so be it. But I'd bet we would have a more diverse game if this wasn't the case.

Blue Doughnut and renter space here we come! Okay, okay I don't want to exaggerate.... maybe we will see some big F1 blob/drone assist AFK fights every couple of months. So much to look forward to guyths!

/endrant.

Your local neighbourhood hero Bloodmyst Ranwar XOXOXO :)

Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#20 - 2014-03-08 08:31:54 UTC
It seems to me that the siphon deployables were created with null sec entities running AFK moon POS in low sec in mind. Has anyone tried a harassment campaign using the siphons?