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[Kronos] Pirate Faction Frigates

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Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#1161 - 2014-03-04 20:17:51 UTC
Batelle wrote:
Dersen Lowery wrote:
So the extremely close collaboration with the lore/story team on the SoE ships was a fluke? Because that was awesome.

Sansha are great lore, prominently featured in the game. While I love the idea in the abstract of a kiting shield laserboat, and I love the additional variety you guys have introduced making active tanks and now afterburners viable in PVP (on the right hulls), I think it's really worth having lunch with CCP Eterne and the guys and talking lore.


OMG SOE missions have me shooting amarr but their ships require amarr skills. The lore!

Seriously though I love the lore but there's nothing about putting afterburners on sansha ships that conflicts with any kind of lore.


I'm not saying there is. I'm saying that it's not good that he hasn't even consulted the lore or its keepers, and that he should probably do that.

As far as the ship itself goes, I love the Succubus. It might not be the most ~optimal~ frigate, but it's going to be hella fun to fly.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!
Lucine Delacourt
The Covenant of Blood
#1162 - 2014-03-04 20:29:23 UTC
Sansha lore is so out of whack as is. The only thing that can be agreed on is that they are aggressive and there ships are supposed to be scary looking. Why aren't you crying for it to be armor tanked like the NPC Sansha? It is obviously you guys hating on the AB bonus are pushing for 2k DPS Incursion monsters but you are sacrificing the rest of the Sansha line to do so.

Trying to get the bonuses to make up perfectly with the racial skill they are tied to is both a waste of time and irrelevant. They serve only as a barrier for entry, there is no lore attached at all. Sansha Nation does not only recruit people with equal parts Amarr and Caldari experience. They take whomever.
Shepard Wong Ogeko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1163 - 2014-03-04 20:30:34 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:

Most complaints about the Worm at this point seem centered around the missile bonus.


There have been plenty around the drones too.

Quote:

As I've already said, I agree that it's a little weird to have a missile bonus on the Gallente skill, but there really isn't a good way out of this.


Yes there is. Ditching the missile bonus completely is an option. Some people find the current velocity bonus on the hull handy to use higher damage missiles at greater range. I personally don't fit missiles on my Guristas ships. But you do have options. Leaving it on the hull and dropping it are both options.

Quote:

If the drone bonus is on the Gallente skill you are essentially required to have that skill to 5 which we would rather avoid.


How is it required any more than the other level based bonus? I would bet most ships are flown without every effecting skill to V. If no one thought a ship was worth flying until they have the racial hull skill to V, everyone would have quit before they got into their first frigate.

Quote:

As for having the missile bonus at all, we preferred giving the option of very high damage output to Guristas over giving more specialized drone bonuses that would either overlap with other ships or not be very useful.


You mean you don't want drone bonuses to overlap with the other really good drone boats? This is why split weapons ships are dumb. Jack of all trades and master of none. The drones hit hard but are slow and inaccurate compared to other drone boats. The missles hit hard, but only to the 2 most commonly resisted damage types, and have no other bonuses common to other missile boats.
Katrina Oniseki
Oniseki-Raata Internal Watch
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#1164 - 2014-03-04 20:31:33 UTC
Lucine Delacourt wrote:
Sansha lore is so out of whack as is. The only thing that can be agreed on is that they are aggressive and there ships are supposed to be scary looking. Why aren't you crying for it to be armor tanked like the NPC Sansha? It is obviously you guys hating on the AB bonus are pushing for 2k DPS Incursion monsters but you are sacrificing the rest of the Sansha line to do so.

Trying to get the bonuses to make up perfectly with the racial skill they are tied to is both a waste of time and irrelevant. They serve only as a barrier for entry, there is no lore attached at all. Sansha Nation does not only recruit people with equal parts Amarr and Caldari experience. They take whomever.


QFT.

Katrina Oniseki
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#1165 - 2014-03-04 20:34:54 UTC
Dersen Lowery wrote:
Seriously though I love the lore but there's nothing about putting afterburners on sansha ships that conflicts with any kind of lore.


I'm not saying there is. I'm saying that it's not good that he hasn't even consulted the lore or its keepers, and that he should probably do that.[/quote]

How do you know he hasn't?

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#1166 - 2014-03-04 20:38:16 UTC
Batelle wrote:
How do you know he hasn't?


The paragraph I quoted strongly implies that either he hasn't, or he has and decided it didn't apply. Did you read it, or are you just firing off one-liners?

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#1167 - 2014-03-04 20:46:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Batelle
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:
How is it required any more than the other level based bonus? I would bet most ships are flown without every effecting skill to V. If no one thought a ship was worth flying until they have the racial hull skill to V, everyone would have quit before they got into their first frigate.


Not even the other pirate BS have a skill that gives 10% damage per level. Getting the hull skill to 5 asap has always been critical on drone boats. I guess he thinks its more an issue on a pirate boat. I would agree with this. Flying a gila/RS with the gal skill at 4 is a bit gimp, moreso than on other ships. But I see your point too.

Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:
Quote:
As for having the missile bonus at all, we preferred giving the option of very high damage output to Guristas over giving more specialized drone bonuses that would either overlap with other ships or not be very useful.

You mean you don't want drone bonuses to overlap with the other really good drone boats? This is why split weapons ships are dumb. Jack of all trades and master of none. The drones hit hard but are slow and inaccurate compared to other drone boats. The missles hit hard, but only to the 2 most commonly resisted damage types, and have no other bonuses common to other missile boats.


Drone boats were good before the Ishtar and Domi got rebalanced you know. Since rebalancing, split weapon system ships have been toned down a bit, but those that remain are dps monsters. Like the navy domi. And if you have the SP, they're pretty awesome (see all versions of the typhoon since forever). The 50% missile damage bonus will let gurista ships become the dps monsters that other pirate ships are. All without giving up the very powerful tanking bonus. I'm pretty stoked about that.

Also, giving the rattlesnake drone damage, shield resistance, and the sentry range/tracking bonus, along with 7 mids and 6 lows would just be wtf OP. The missile bonus is a lot weaker, but its probably a better option.

Dersen Lowery wrote:
Batelle wrote:
How do you know he hasn't?


The paragraph I quoted strongly implies that either he hasn't, or he has and decided it didn't apply. Did you read it, or are you just firing off one-liners?


I don't think what he said implies that at all, although its entirely possible that he hasn't consulted with them. In the paragraph you're talking about he specifically says "...don't have a lot of flavor associated with their actual gameplay," which is the matter at hand anyway.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Lunkwill Khashour
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1168 - 2014-03-04 20:49:32 UTC
I had a whole post prepared about lore, flavour, uniqueness and power that combines to make the pirate ships but instead:

- Sansha needs work
- Cruor needs Minmatarbonus changed to: 20% range to modules requiring propulsion jamming skill per level
- Worm, DD, Dram are fine

TL,DR:
Cruor needs web and scram bonus to balance low mobility.
Lucine Delacourt
The Covenant of Blood
#1169 - 2014-03-04 20:52:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucine Delacourt
He probably should have or should now consult the lore keepers. That being said, he isn't wrong in his assessment of Sansha lore. None of the proposed changes conflicts with the existing lore for any of the pirate factions. Any complaints specifically regarding lore are covers for other agendas or based on an individual players "vision" of what a certain faction should be.

Lore complaints are right up there with "I want 5 drones because... I just want 5 drones!" The people spewing them are derailing the thread and complaining because things aren't going the way they had assumed they would. In all reality they are making it harder for people with legit concerns about the Worm/Succubus/Crour to be taken seriously. They are hurting their own cause.
Joe Boirele
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1170 - 2014-03-04 20:57:24 UTC
DISCLAIMER: I don't do much flying around in pirate frigates, because they cost a lot.

First of all, I rather like the worm bonuses. They manage to make the worm's drones useful, without overlapping on all the other droneboats in the game. I also like that worm is getting a missile bonus that works well with the tank bonus. Succumbus's bonuses are also fine I think, because generally I just hear about how people should fit MWD's to their [insert ship here], and a few more AB ships will add flavor. Cruror's bonuses are making you more able to either kite or brawl, which I think will encourage variability. Then again, I don't have much experience fitting or flying said pirate frigates, so my opinions may be complete ****.

Enemies are just friends who stab you in the front.

"We will not go quietly into the night! We will not vanish without a fight!"
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#1171 - 2014-03-04 21:06:49 UTC
Batelle wrote:
I don't think what he said implies that at all, although its entirely possible that he hasn't consulted with them. In the paragraph you're talking about he specifically says "...don't have a lot of flavor associated with their actual gameplay," which is the matter at hand anyway.


And which the Sansha roleplayers here seem to have a problem with. If anything, there's not a lot of flavor associated with actual gameplay because the Succubus and the Phantasm never got any actual gameplay, except as red crosses. The one ship that did is the Nightmare, which is a lumbering engine of death at long range.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1172 - 2014-03-04 21:10:52 UTC
Batelle wrote:
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:
How is it required any more than the other level based bonus? I would bet most ships are flown without every effecting skill to V. If no one thought a ship was worth flying until they have the racial hull skill to V, everyone would have quit before they got into their first frigate.


Not even the other pirate BS have a skill that gives 10% damage per level. Getting the hull skill to 5 asap has always been critical on drone boats. I guess he thinks its more an issue on a pirate boat. I would agree with this. Flying a gila/RS with the gal skill at 4 is a bit gimp, moreso than on other ships. But I see your point too.

Well, considering the strength of the bonus it makes the gap between entering the ship and fully skilled enormous unless the bonus is partially split between role and level bonuses. Without that split your talking about a 60%/lvl bonus if the whole thing is placed in the Gallente skill. And if you need to split it to make it work, why bother?
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#1173 - 2014-03-04 21:19:16 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Batelle wrote:
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:
How is it required any more than the other level based bonus? I would bet most ships are flown without every effecting skill to V. If no one thought a ship was worth flying until they have the racial hull skill to V, everyone would have quit before they got into their first frigate.


Not even the other pirate BS have a skill that gives 10% damage per level. Getting the hull skill to 5 asap has always been critical on drone boats. I guess he thinks its more an issue on a pirate boat. I would agree with this. Flying a gila/RS with the gal skill at 4 is a bit gimp, moreso than on other ships. But I see your point too.

Well, considering the strength of the bonus it makes the gap between entering the ship and fully skilled enormous unless the bonus is partially split between role and level bonuses.


I don't understand this. 300% role bonus as proposed on the worm, no split, what's the problem?

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Cade Windstalker
#1174 - 2014-03-04 21:24:48 UTC
Dersen Lowery wrote:
I'm not saying there is. I'm saying that it's not good that he hasn't even consulted the lore or its keepers, and that he should probably do that.

As far as the ship itself goes, I love the Succubus. It might not be the most ~optimal~ frigate, but it's going to be hella fun to fly.


He didn't say that he hasn't consulted anyone on Lore, he said he's not aware of any Lore issues with that, and honestly having spent way too many hours shooting Sansha in Incursions their ships are *really* freaking fast. IMO this works perfectly.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1175 - 2014-03-04 21:24:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Batelle wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Batelle wrote:
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:
How is it required any more than the other level based bonus? I would bet most ships are flown without every effecting skill to V. If no one thought a ship was worth flying until they have the racial hull skill to V, everyone would have quit before they got into their first frigate.


Not even the other pirate BS have a skill that gives 10% damage per level. Getting the hull skill to 5 asap has always been critical on drone boats. I guess he thinks its more an issue on a pirate boat. I would agree with this. Flying a gila/RS with the gal skill at 4 is a bit gimp, moreso than on other ships. But I see your point too.

Well, considering the strength of the bonus it makes the gap between entering the ship and fully skilled enormous unless the bonus is partially split between role and level bonuses.


I don't understand this. 300% role bonus as proposed on the worm, no split, what's the problem?

You seemed to be associating the fact that Rise didn't want the drone bonus associated with a ship skill level with the fact that the ship was a pirate ship. My line of though is that it's not so much that it's a pirate ship as the fact that the bonus would create a far more extreme gap in performance between skill levels that already exists on most drone ships already.

I'm not seeing an issue with the bonus as proposed, but rather speculating as to the underlying reason.
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#1176 - 2014-03-04 21:39:55 UTC
The issue with Sansha having an afterburner bonus is not just regarding any preconception we may have of existing lore, but is more due to the fact that it completely changes current gameplay.

Now they are an active shield speed tanking race completely based around speed. They are basically minmatar +
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#1177 - 2014-03-04 21:42:55 UTC
Tyberius Franklin wrote:

You seemed to be associating the fact that Rise didn't want the drone bonus associated with a ship skill level with the fact that the ship was a pirate ship. My line of though is that it's not so much that it's a pirate ship as the fact that the bonus would create a far more extreme gap in performance between skill levels that already exists on most drone ships already.

I'm not seeing an issue with the bonus as proposed, but rather speculating as to the underlying reason.


I see what you're saying now.. If it was 60%/level for two drones the gap between 4-5 is more than doubled. However I do think the fact that its a pirate ship is relevant. I'm just thinking about those poor caldari that have cross trained into both drones and gallente skills, and not getting their money's worth unless they take the plunge to cross train a second race to level 5. Still missing caldari bs 5 on my snake... Sad

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Fabulous Rod
Darkfall Corp
#1178 - 2014-03-04 21:43:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Fabulous Rod
There is no good reason to remove missile velocity bonuses from Guristas ships. Devs are just ******* people over needlessly.

You incompetents already weakened the great strength of the pve ships with the blanket resist changed that was supposed to be for pvp reasons, nerfing with a sledgehammer as opposed to scalpel. No reason to take away anything more from Guristas.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#1179 - 2014-03-04 21:51:26 UTC
Medalyn Isis wrote:
The issue with Sansha having an afterburner bonus is not just regarding any preconception we may have of existing lore, but is more due to the fact that it completely changes current gameplay.


Not at all. Succubus and Phantasm don't see any current gameplay, so what is there to change?

And why would the AB bonus change the Nightmare, assuming that it doesn't lose its current damage output in the fashion of the Succubus?
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#1180 - 2014-03-04 22:22:18 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:
The issue with Sansha having an afterburner bonus is not just regarding any preconception we may have of existing lore, but is more due to the fact that it completely changes current gameplay.


Not at all. Succubus and Phantasm don't see any current gameplay, so what is there to change?.


I'm flying a Phantasm as we speak. hehe

Gypsio III wrote:
And why would the AB bonus change the Nightmare, assuming that it doesn't lose its current damage output in the fashion of the Succubus?


The nightmare won't get any use from an afterburner bonus, what is the point in the bonus if it is of no use to the main ship.