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My Sandbox is Becoming a Themepark

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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#141 - 2014-02-28 14:13:22 UTC
Kimmi Chan wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Why not?

There are far too many coincidences here for it to be anything else. The lack of bots found by ccp as well as players not finding bots in null that often. That CCP have found that the second most botted activity also just happens to be running missions in high which have been shown to earn more isk than belt ratting or running anoms.

The evidence is somewhat overwhelming.


It's overwhelming evidence of what?

It is overwhelming evidence that:

CCP found most bots in Caldari space, most notably The Forge and
That CCP found the second most bots running missions.

I suppose you could realistically and responsibly infer that "Most bots are not found in Null Sec" and that "Most bots are not running missions".

Anything more than that is just speculation.


CCPs toolbox means they whack bots without us reporting them a lot of the time so if there were bots evenly spread out we would not see 80% getting whacked in high sec. Equally given that there are very few pilots running mission in null and low sec that can only leave high sec missions.

Its the only place where we see the numbers needed given the amount of bots. So yea, we can take this as a fact because its the only way CCPs data makes any sense.
SpoonRECKLESS
Beach Boys
The Minions.
#142 - 2014-02-28 14:14:34 UTC  |  Edited by: SpoonRECKLESS
hellokittyonline wrote:
^Typical carebear response. Completely uninformed posting in defense of their mindless play with the assumption that they should be able to play in a 100% safe environment, by themselves (themepark), at the expense of the fun of others who would prefer a risky and exciting game environment (sandbox).


How are they truly safe? You can gank anyone in high sec at any time. No one is safe in eve NO ONE!! You just need to get better at making them want to risk it. Plenty of ninjas out there who get mission runners to shoot you just need to pull up that skirt show some skin make em weak in the knees. You the player must make the risk come to them this is a true sandbox so open mom is yelling stop letting the heat out.

Blue
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#143 - 2014-02-28 14:16:02 UTC
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:
Kimmi Chan wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Why not?

There are far too many coincidences here for it to be anything else. The lack of bots found by ccp as well as players not finding bots in null that often. That CCP have found that the second most botted activity also just happens to be running missions in high which have been shown to earn more isk than belt ratting or running anoms.

The evidence is somewhat overwhelming.


It's overwhelming evidence of what?

It is overwhelming evidence that:

CCP found most bots in Caldari space, most notably The Forge and
That CCP found the second most bots running missions.

I suppose you could realistically and responsibly infer that "Most bots are not found in Null Sec" and that "Most bots are not running missions".

Anything more than that is just speculation.

You guys dont think it would have anything at all to do with the aggression mechanics vs hi-sec to null as to where most bots worked?

Who does your thinking for you during your day?


Nullsec was once stuffed full with bots. Botting supers and a raven in every system was a real thing back in 2008.
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#144 - 2014-02-28 14:17:36 UTC
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:
You guys dont think it would have anything at all to do with the aggression mechanics vs hi-sec to null as to where most bots worked?

Who does your thinking for you during your day?


Your question is speculative and wholly unhelpful.

I do my own thinking.

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
E-2C Hawkeye
HOW to PEG SAFETY
#145 - 2014-02-28 14:26:04 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Kimmi Chan wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Kimmi Chan wrote:


Pointing at bots and suggesting their indicative of anything is a strawman. One that the Master of the Mega uses often. While it is true that during the FanFest 2013 Security presentation, a graph showing the vast majority of bots operating in HighSec were found in Caldari Space and most notably in The Forge, it makes no direct correlation to any disparity in income. It is quite possible that the majority operate in Caldari and specifically The Forge due to it's proximity to


On bots according to CCP the second most botted activity is mission running, given that both low and null mission systems are sparcely populated at best that means there is only one place they can be.


The information is pertinent to where bots are found not where they continue to operate. A bot not found continues to operate, CCP can not report on where they operate until they are found. I would advise caution on inferring facts from the data. These threads already have enough speculation. The only things that the data being discussed in this matter reveal are:

CCP found most bots in The Forge.
CCP found the second most bots were running missions.

Any inference based on this is opinion and not fact.


Why not?

There are far too many coincidences here for it to be anything else. The lack of bots found by ccp as well as players not finding bots in null that often. That CCP have found that the second most botted activity also just happens to be running missions in high which have been shown to earn more isk than belt ratting or running anoms. The evidence is somewhat overwhelming.

Oddly enough in the next six months we are expecting to see more ice bots in low a null. Mining is about to be a bigger earner in null than anoms...Go figur.

Ballick, do us all a favor and go ahead and move to hi-sec and run your missions, but please stop trying to turn every thread into a whine thread about how terrible you have it in blue sec and how unfair Eve is. No one is stopping you from leaving.

It’s not CCP fault or hi-sec fault that your alliance owners choose to rent out the best space instead of letting their pets have it.
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#146 - 2014-02-28 14:27:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Kimmi Chan
baltec1 wrote:

CCPs toolbox means they whack bots without us reporting them a lot of the time so if there were bots evenly spread out we would not see 80% getting whacked in high sec. Equally given that there are very few pilots running mission in null and low sec that can only leave high sec missions.

Its the only place where we see the numbers needed given the amount of bots. So yea, we can take this as a fact because its the only way CCPs data makes any sense.


What exactly can we take as fact Master of Mega (I use this term out of respect and fun Smile).

Here are the facts you are now citing:

CCP found most bots operating in Caldari space, most notably in The Forge.
CCP found that the second most bots were running missions.
CCP whacks bots without us reporting them.
There are very few pilots running missions in null and low sec.

What is it that you are inferring from these facts?

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#147 - 2014-02-28 14:28:44 UTC
OP,

I like your suggestions to prod the risk-averse into riskier gameplay and giving incentives to learn game mechanics (that you normally would never learn in hisec).

But I think that having these mechanisms on Day 1 of a pilot would be frustrating for a lot of people. When you have no idea about anything and clinging to Aura for things to make sense, being forced to learn things the hard way will make a lot of people leave EVE immediately. I think for some people it takes time to "get it" and they should be given this time.

I think your suggestions should kick in like "Rookie Chat" chat channel. After 30 days you are no longer a rookie and the training wheels come off.

/蘭

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
E-2C Hawkeye
HOW to PEG SAFETY
#148 - 2014-02-28 14:32:23 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Kimmi Chan wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Why not?

There are far too many coincidences here for it to be anything else. The lack of bots found by ccp as well as players not finding bots in null that often. That CCP have found that the second most botted activity also just happens to be running missions in high which have been shown to earn more isk than belt ratting or running anoms.

The evidence is somewhat overwhelming.


It's overwhelming evidence of what?

It is overwhelming evidence that:

CCP found most bots in Caldari space, most notably The Forge and
That CCP found the second most bots running missions.

I suppose you could realistically and responsibly infer that "Most bots are not found in Null Sec" and that "Most bots are not running missions".

Anything more than that is just speculation.


CCPs toolbox means they whack bots without us reporting them a lot of the time so if there were bots evenly spread out we would not see 80% getting whacked in high sec. Equally given that there are very few pilots running mission in null and low sec that can only leave high sec missions.

Its the only place where we see the numbers needed given the amount of bots. So yea, we can take this as a fact because its the only way CCPs data makes any sense.


The fact is the last nerf hit bluesec. The fact is now that cfc control most of blue-sec any nerf to income to any other space would only benifit them. Where do alliances go to recover once they are run out of sov? Right, low-hi-sec.

Nerfing that income potential would help keep putting the beat down on your defeated enemy.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#149 - 2014-02-28 14:35:50 UTC
Kimmi Chan wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

CCPs toolbox means they whack bots without us reporting them a lot of the time so if there were bots evenly spread out we would not see 80% getting whacked in high sec. Equally given that there are very few pilots running mission in null and low sec that can only leave high sec missions.

Its the only place where we see the numbers needed given the amount of bots. So yea, we can take this as a fact because its the only way CCPs data makes any sense.


What exactly can we take as fact Master of Mega (I use this term out of respect and fun Smile).

Here are the facts you are now citing:

CCP found most bots operating in Caldari space, most notably in The Forge.
CCP found that the second most bots were running missions.
CCP whacks bots without us reporting them.
There are very few pilots running missions in null and low sec.

What is it that you are inferring from these facts?


That despite the age old claim (by high sec people) that null sec is all bots, the fact of the matter is that high sec is more likely to be botter's stomping grounds than null sec is.

What information do yo have to dispute this?
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#150 - 2014-02-28 14:37:52 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Kimmi Chan wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

CCPs toolbox means they whack bots without us reporting them a lot of the time so if there were bots evenly spread out we would not see 80% getting whacked in high sec. Equally given that there are very few pilots running mission in null and low sec that can only leave high sec missions.

Its the only place where we see the numbers needed given the amount of bots. So yea, we can take this as a fact because its the only way CCPs data makes any sense.


What exactly can we take as fact Master of Mega (I use this term out of respect and fun Smile).

Here are the facts you are now citing:

CCP found most bots operating in Caldari space, most notably in The Forge.
CCP found that the second most bots were running missions.
CCP whacks bots without us reporting them.
There are very few pilots running missions in null and low sec.

What is it that you are inferring from these facts?


That despite the age old claim (by high sec people) that null sec is all bots, the fact of the matter is that high sec is more likely to be botter's stomping grounds than null sec is.

What information do yo have to dispute this?


None. I did not see any such claim made in this thread.

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#151 - 2014-02-28 14:40:30 UTC
Kimmi Chan wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

CCPs toolbox means they whack bots without us reporting them a lot of the time so if there were bots evenly spread out we would not see 80% getting whacked in high sec. Equally given that there are very few pilots running mission in null and low sec that can only leave high sec missions.

Its the only place where we see the numbers needed given the amount of bots. So yea, we can take this as a fact because its the only way CCPs data makes any sense.


What exactly can we take as fact Master of Mega (I use this term out of respect and fun Smile).

Here are the facts you are now citing:

CCP found most bots operating in Caldari space, most notably in The Forge.
CCP found that the second most bots were running missions.
CCP whacks bots without us reporting them.
There are very few pilots running missions in null and low sec.

What is it that you are inferring from these facts?


Logic my good man.

There is a large number of bots running missions.

They cannot be in null, there is simply not enough activity.

They are not in low sec as again, there is not enough activity. FW missions migh account for some of this number but not enough forthe bulk.

This leaves highsec. Given that 80% of bots are found in high sec its clear where the bulk of mission bots are. There is no guesswork involved unless you want to assume that the bulk of mission bot run caldari navy missions which would explain a few other things.

Just like how the bulk of mining bots are known to be in high sec by literally everyone although ice bots are expected to start moving to low and null ice systems now that ice is on the up.
Salvos Rhoska
#152 - 2014-02-28 14:42:46 UTC
I dont understand how its even possible to Bot a mission Oo

PvE v PvP <> Old School Exploration <> CODE Licenses <> CODE Special Agent
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#153 - 2014-02-28 14:43:05 UTC
E-2C Hawkeye wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Kimmi Chan wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Why not?

There are far too many coincidences here for it to be anything else. The lack of bots found by ccp as well as players not finding bots in null that often. That CCP have found that the second most botted activity also just happens to be running missions in high which have been shown to earn more isk than belt ratting or running anoms.

The evidence is somewhat overwhelming.


It's overwhelming evidence of what?

It is overwhelming evidence that:

CCP found most bots in Caldari space, most notably The Forge and
That CCP found the second most bots running missions.

I suppose you could realistically and responsibly infer that "Most bots are not found in Null Sec" and that "Most bots are not running missions".

Anything more than that is just speculation.


CCPs toolbox means they whack bots without us reporting them a lot of the time so if there were bots evenly spread out we would not see 80% getting whacked in high sec. Equally given that there are very few pilots running mission in null and low sec that can only leave high sec missions.

Its the only place where we see the numbers needed given the amount of bots. So yea, we can take this as a fact because its the only way CCPs data makes any sense.


The fact is the last nerf hit bluesec. The fact is now that cfc control most of blue-sec any nerf to income to any other space would only benifit them. Where do alliances go to recover once they are run out of sov? Right, low-hi-sec.

Nerfing that income potential would help keep putting the beat down on your defeated enemy.


Any nerf to high sec income would hurt us given most of us have now set up alts in high sec.
Miriya Zakalwe
World Wide Welp
#154 - 2014-02-28 14:46:09 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
I dont understand how its even possible to Bot a mission Oo


Keep running them. You will understand.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#155 - 2014-02-28 14:46:53 UTC
Kimmi Chan wrote:


That despite the age old claim (by high sec people) that null sec is all bots, the fact of the matter is that high sec is more likely to be botter's stomping grounds than null sec is.

What information do yo have to dispute this?


None. I did not see any such claim made in this thread.[/quote]

Then you need to understand the history. For years the high sec crowd has been claiming that null sec is bot land (which some even claiming that null sec players are somehow universally lining their wallets with real life money because of this).

Then CCP nuked a bunch of bots (and talked some about the tools they use to find botters, of which reporting is only a small part, they also use their own automation to detect bots and CCP employees check out botter websites) and posted a graph of where they are. Lo and behold, THE FORGE (the heart of high sec) was the actual bot land.

It was the same kind fo thing as when high sec people scream about how safe null is and how much more pvp happens in high sec then CCP put up a blog post dealing how null had 3.5-4 times the pvp kills of high sec despite having only 1/5th the population.

What many high sec people (self servingly) believe about the game isn't just wrong, it's completely backwards.
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#156 - 2014-02-28 14:49:39 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Logic my good man.

There is a large number of bots running missions.

They cannot be in null, there is simply not enough activity.

They are not in low sec as again, there is not enough activity. FW missions migh account for some of this number but not enough forthe bulk.

This leaves highsec. Given that 80% of bots are found in high sec its clear where the bulk of mission bots are. There is no guesswork involved unless you want to assume that the bulk of mission bot run caldari navy missions which would explain a few other things.

Just like how the bulk of mining bots are known to be in high sec by literally everyone although ice bots are expected to start moving to low and null ice systems now that ice is on the up.


If I understand you correctly you are saying that "Most mission bots are in HighSec".

If that is in fact what you're saying (and all that you're saying) then I would be inclined to agree.

"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#157 - 2014-02-28 14:51:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Batelle
hellokittyonline wrote:

CCPs STANCE: Has been to continuously bubble-wrap the risk-averse making it increasingly difficult (in extremely superficial ways) for us content-creators to inject risk into their environment. EXAMPLES: Swapping ships with an orca was nerfed because we were killing too many mission runners, EHP of miners was buffed because we were suiciding too many miners, CONCORD was buffed because we were suiciding too many industrials, mission NPCs aggro mechanics were changed because we were stealing too many LEWTS, crimewatch (and the green safety) was added because too many players were dying inadvertently (even though it was already completely avoidable by simply understanding aggro mechanics). Even when CCP decides to throw us PvPers a bone (Faction Welfare) it all-but-immediately devolves into a cloaked, stabbed, farm-fest. Furthermore, when they add content for the PvEers (Incursions) the isk/hr is completely out of hand, liquid, and 100% riskless.


I'm not saying I disagree with your whole point or anything, but almost all of these examples are stupid.

1. Orca swapping in-combat is ********
2. There are still plenty of miners to suicide
3. There are still plenty of industrials to suicide. Tornados don't care about concord, and the response time in plenty long in 0.5-0.6 . If your targets are getting wise, you can't blame CCP for that.
4. Carebears are/were more upset about changes to NPC aggro mechanics than you will ever be. It has nothing to do with loot.
5. Crimwatch 2.0 is far supperior than the undocmented spaghetti-logic player-to-player flags.
6. The green safety doesn't prevent you from shooting a legal target, so getting a mission runner to aggress is no different than it was before.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Kimmi Chan
Tastes Like Purple
#158 - 2014-02-28 14:57:52 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Then you need to understand the history. For years the high sec crowd has been claiming that null sec is bot land (which some even claiming that null sec players are somehow universally lining their wallets with real life money because of this).

Then CCP nuked a bunch of bots (and talked some about the tools they use to find botters, of which reporting is only a small part, they also use their own automation to detect bots and CCP employees check out botter websites) and posted a graph of where they are. Lo and behold, THE FORGE (the heart of high sec) was the actual bot land.

It was the same kind fo thing as when high sec people scream about how safe null is and how much more pvp happens in high sec then CCP put up a blog post dealing how null had 3.5-4 times the pvp kills of high sec despite having only 1/5th the population.

What many high sec people (self servingly) believe about the game isn't just wrong, it's completely backwards.


I can appreciate that. What I'm failing to understand I guess is why a claim that had not been made in this thread needed to be refuted. Are you saying that Baltec is simply launching a preemptive strike against those that would (incorrectly) assert that bots all live in NullSec later in what I am sure will be a great (albeit useless) thread?

Personally, I think it's more fun to let people say stupid stuff and then show them why what they just said is stupid. Big smile


"Grr Kimmi  Nerf Chans!" ~Jenn aSide

www.eve-radio.com  Join Eve Radio channel in game!
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#159 - 2014-02-28 15:01:50 UTC
hellokittyonline wrote:

Even when CCP decides to throw us PvPers a bone (Faction Welfare) it all-but-immediately devolves into a cloaked, stabbed, farm-fest. Furthermore, when they add content for the PvEers (Incursions) the isk/hr is completely out of hand, liquid, and 100% riskless.


Yea, that was kind of my fault lol.

Well, not mine alone, but quite a few of us. When FW started it was great, but there were no "rewards". Killing enemy ships didn't give you anything and running plexes don't give you isk or lp or anything. Shooting the NPCs in plexes was even worthless.

That mean that we'd have to take time off of FW to go run missions in high sec or do other things to make is to buy ships to spend in Faction Warfare. So we complained to CCP that there needs to be monetary rewards in FW so we could keep pvping. So they added the rewards. Too much rewards. WAY to freaking much rewards lol.

Now some people (myself included to be honest) only do FW to make isk and say "screw your pvp, I got stabs" lol.

So, well, Sorry. My bad Evil
BrundleMeth
State War Academy
Caldari State
#160 - 2014-02-28 15:04:48 UTC
hellokittyonline wrote:
Not at all, as the playstyles that this post is pointed at require no thought or creativity and just serve as an easy way for uninformed players to make isk. I don't want them to play my way, I want their way to be as challenging as it would be to come up with something completely original in order to encourage more players to play the game their own way (ie sandbox) instead of following a prescribed I-Win tutorial (themepark).

Nothing but symantics and bullshit. People like you just don't get it. At all. CCP wants to MAKE MONEY. If the game is too hard, people will quit. And when they quit there is a little box asking "why are you quitting". I do not want Hi-Sec to be 100% safe in any way shape or form. But High-Sec should be safer than it is for the people who want to play there full time.
They don't ask Null Sec to be made safer, but you demand that CCP makes Hi-Sec more dangerous. If EVE is supposed to be this wonderful sandbox, people should be able to actually play without being driven from the game by pricks all in the name of "EVE is a dangerous game, blah, blah" bullshit... Then people get on the forums and spew "We don't need those people anyway". WRONG. CCP wants those people...