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Please put option back in....

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Simon Delivers
Doomheim
#221 - 2011-11-27 00:25:23 UTC
Mary Mercer wrote:

As far as I'm concerned if you pin a window and it don't lock then the PIN FEATURE is BROKEN and you are releasing yet again another buggy and broken expansion.



This.
Mary Mercer
Doomheim
#222 - 2011-11-27 00:33:38 UTC
CCP Optimal wrote:
Obviously, we jumped the gun on this one, we're sorry and we'll fix it. I would although like to point out that we don't remove features like this just because we're evil but rather in an attempt to simplify code and user experience. If we manage to identify and remove a feature that nobody uses, that means simpler code, simpler user experience, fewer bugs and more time to implement new and cool stuff. In this case, we obviously misdiagnosed. Also, we are actually quite evil coming to think of it.

It's no secret that our window system is quite arcane and we would really like to pull it further into the 21st century. Features like pinning, collapsing and stacking is something that you won't find in many modern GUI systems, but obviously we can't go ahead and remove stuff without providing better means of doing the things that you need to do. By looking at the root of problems, it is rather often possible to find a simpler, more elegant solution to problems that doesn't require users to dig up a setting in the system menu.

In the case of locking windows when pinned, I take it that the biggest reason for the usage relates to lightning fast mouse maneuvering and button pressing going wrong and the usual suspects being the overview, selected item and drone windows, and probably any other combat related window. I would be surprised if many people lock their fitting window (or do they?). Maybe the solution could be as simple as making windows, that have been snapped to a screen edge, or other windows, harder to accidentally move, so that the window wouldn't start moving unless you had dragged it, say 5-10 pixels? Maybe the windows in question shouldn't be windows at all, but rather fixed to the right hand side of the screen (similar to the the ship HUD)?

For pinning (just the transparency change bit) we might be able to remove that option altogether, make the active window background fade in (look like an unpinned window) and all other windows fade out (look like pinned windows). I have actually played around with this a bit and it reduces the visual noise of the UI quite a bit, drawing the attention of your eyes to the active window while keeping other windows well readable and the 3d scene visible, so it looks promising.

Collapsing windows has always seemed like a weird little thing to me, and for some reason it always reminds me of Windows 3.11, which is less than great. Do people use this feature? I know that some people use TAB to collapse/expand all windows, but wouldn't it make more sense to minimize/maximize all windows instead, while allowing you to exclude some windows (such as the overview)?

What about features like SHIFT-dragging windows to drag an entire snap-group of windows ... is this the first time you ever heard of this or is it a keeper?

Are there other weird little things in the window system that nobody uses that we could probably axe without much rage?

All feedback and thoughts about these thoughts and how we could improve and streamline our window system, without ruining EVE, would be greatly appreciated. Sadly, we can't improve things without changing them and people (including me) hate it when the UI they've grown used to changes, but given that the changes are actually good, the hatred quickly wears off. The more vocal you are, the less likely we are to screw up like this again!


Call Blizzard. WoW Calls it "locking" but they seem to have no issue allowing chat windows to be locked in place... Ok smart A** jokes aside...

I like the stable transparency setting I don't want it to change as I mouse over it. I like the pin, I want ALL windows to be able to be LOCKED not just have to move a little ways before they unlock. It's not that inconceivable. And as far as minimizing... I minimize windows A TON in Eve. When I played WoW it was one of the most frustrating thing ever that their UI lacked this feature.

Hell I was trying to keep it simple, if you want to know what I'd REALLY like, how about the ability to open two versions of my cargo so I can filter them differently at the same time? Or better yet multiple market windows so I can look up all the components required to build a product at the same time compare prices and not have to go digging around for crap and waiting for the api call with EVERY SINGLE change. I could open 5 different items and simply swap between them.

Funny you mentioned it reminds you of windows 3.11 because rather than trying to eliminate good features you should try to upgrade it to like windows vista /puke or windows 7 and give us a windows task bar for easier access to minimized stuff. (/tongue in cheek).
Mary Mercer
Doomheim
#223 - 2011-11-27 01:02:48 UTC
SuperSpy00bob wrote:
My take on window management in eve:

The number one reason for the hostility towards removing pinning is the absolute blood-boiling frustration with the multitude of window docking/snapping/mis-clicking issues and bugs, some of which have probably been fixed/smoothed in the past. I can't count how many times I've nearly punched the screen when either the client lags and mis-interprets a click, or the (still unresolved afaik) bug happens where a mouse click decides to grab a random window, sometime causing a cascade of windows moving themselves around that somehow believe they should be pinned to each other's location.

My dream implementation would include removing all logic for windows to stick together and try and move as a group. This seems to be the root of almost all my frustration with the eve UI. I don't think it would be very well missed, as at least in my case the amount of extra work from moving commonly linked windows (like the overview and selected items) would be greatly overshadowed by the reduction in window moves I have to make to correct something the client does automatically via windows trying to stick each other.

With the amount of bug fixes listed for that feature, and the amount of patches that have introduced goofy issues with it, I would guess there's a TON of code involved with it, which IMO could be scrapped.

If the 'window sticking' feature was removed, it seems like it would be extremely easy to make the 'pin' option simply disable that window's ability to move, possibly even moving transparency to another feature all together (I'm not sure I'm totally on board with dynamic transparency, but I would be willing to see it in action first).


YOu know this is a good point. That "snap to the next window" feature actually sucks most of the time. As I typically have to move window B out of the damn way to get WINDOW A in place then pin WINDOW A to lock it and try to slip window B back where I want it.

Put pinning back in, deal with that headache and dump the auto align, auto snap window bs that we are dealing with and as has been said, is likely creating most of the darn movement issues when docking/undocking, etc.
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#224 - 2011-11-27 01:05:51 UTC
Arkady Sadik wrote:
There were people who didn't lock their windows when pinned? O_O



WOW. I thought everyone locked them. I know I sure did......................

C'est la Vie in EVE

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Logix42
Taxation Damnation
#225 - 2011-11-27 03:38:34 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Arkady Sadik wrote:
There were people who didn't lock their windows when pinned? O_O

WOW. I thought everyone locked them. I know I sure did......................


/signed

Go beyond the edge of space... Explore
Gizan
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#226 - 2011-11-27 15:50:41 UTC
CCP Optimal wrote:

We strive to have ENTER work as confirm for all dialogs. If some of them fail to follow that pattern, I would call that a defect.


How about those REALLY annoying txt dialogs when warping to sertain systems with the "news" thing. where you cant just press enter, you have to physically click the ok button?

Those little windows like that, where you only ever read them once, and then they are just annoying, especially in a route you travel frequently...
Danny Centauri
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#227 - 2011-11-27 22:12:08 UTC
CCP Optimal wrote:
This was removed on purpose. The feature was becoming increasingly hard to maintain due to technical reasons, and given the fact that very few people even knew of it's existence, we decided to remove it.


I liked it too - people didn't know of its existance because it should default to on not off. Pinning things kind of means ermm they shouldn't move.

EVE Manufacturing Guide - Simple guides to manufacturing in EVE for both beginners and more experienced players.
Loardriver
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#228 - 2011-11-28 03:09:51 UTC
As for me - may remove transparency then windows pin, but don`t touch LOCK.

Yes - EVE not Windows 3.11 / 98 /2k / se7en or any one - in win you work in one or two applications at the same time. in EVE you work at more, than two applications at the same time: local chat / language chat / overview / dronewindows / igb / market / contract`s / cargo / assets- so they need me all at the same time, and they need me lock, at least chat`s / local / over / drones / conts & cargo, also all windows need me with minimaze.
Sturmwolke
#229 - 2011-11-28 04:23:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Sturmwolke
Didn't read whole thread .... but jesus ******* christ, "lock window when pinned" is like the bread and butter for a functional UI. Where in god's name is someone getting the idea that it's little used and no longer applicable and thus of little importance?

This is exactly the same offhand dismissal that Greyscale made with his first proposal regarding faction towers (based on info provided by god knows who). Fortunately, that was fixed.

The bottomline here, don't assume anything - even when you *think* you got it right.
Never, never, never underestimate the community as morons and trolls whose opinions deserves to be trashed.
Many of these folks are professionals in their own right, some even has a few words of wisdom.

P.S Late to the scene, got into SISI bld 321215 and noticed immediately the lock windows option was missing.
Cursed inwards at the @#%!@^ who removed it.
Magic Crisp
Amarrian Micro Devices
#230 - 2011-11-28 10:00:11 UTC
CCP Optimal wrote:
O
It's no secret that our window system is quite arcane and we would really like to pull it further into the 21st century. Features like pinning, collapsing and stacking is something that you won't find in many modern GUI systems, but obviously we can't go ahead and remove stuff without providing better means of doing the things that you need to do. By looking at the root of problems, it is rather often possible to find a simpler, more elegant solution to problems that doesn't require users to dig up a setting in the system menu.


Install any unix-like OS (like linux, freebsd, whatever), then install fluxbox, or any decent window managers, and you'll see all these features being around for decades. Yeah, these are not "modern" window managers (at least, in your context), but these have features so comfortables that I haven't seen on any other platforms. Windows and alike are for the dumb masses, thought Windows 7 has some nice ones, but still lags behind a lot.
el alasar
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#231 - 2011-11-28 13:01:40 UTC  |  Edited by: el alasar
Somal Thunder wrote:
wow, 6 pages of "this is a huge deal"...
Honestly, I don't pin windows because they make things transparent. Also because stacking mucks everything up.

But it's a nice feature to have. I don't know how you wrote it but why don't you just make windowID's remember relative locations to the origin? Or explain how it can be so difficult to maintain since I seem to be missing something.

agreed. CCP, pleae elaborate. how do you define 'pinning'?

please do NOT make pinning and locking only usable together. i want to lock windows, but NOT make them transparent the same time. if i have to choose, i would rather not pin windows right now, as transparency is far worse than being able to move a window.

CCP Optimal wrote:
Would most people agree that reducing the draggable area for a window to the window header would eliminate the need for locking?
rather no from me, but better than nothing.

please remove
- doubleclick in window content performs collapse, should only work on headline
- dragging window possible on window content (works on some part of content anyways, so this is inconsistent right now)

Cloora wrote:
The biggest thing is just when I dock and undock my overview and station services window always moves on Sisi right now. That is HIGHLY annoying when i undock into a group of flashy pirates camping a station.
what is equally bad: during undocking, when the screen brightens up, you can already see all entries in the overview and have already found the entry you want to click, then suddenly, when eve enables you to select and click it, all entries are moved around / overview contents gets rearranged. (i usually have overview ordered by IC. and i would love to have secondary alphabetical sorting, too. and each tab in overview should retain its on state/sorting)
Gripen wrote:
Window pinning is used not only to prevent accidental moves but also unwanted resizes. Thus making window movable by header only won't be a fair trade. As an alternative: what if to resize or move any window you would need to hold Shift (or other modifier key) down and all the other time window would stay locked?

perfect, +1. i also always use "stack only when shift is pressed" by default, so i dont get accidental stacking.

check the moderated 10000 papercuts evelopedia page! http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Little_things_and_ideas_-_low_hanging_fruit_-_10000_papercuts comment, bump(!) and like what you like
Hamster Too
Golden Fowl
#232 - 2011-11-28 14:25:31 UTC
el alasar wrote:
please do NOT make pinning and locking only usable together. i want to lock windows, but NOT make them transparent the same time. if i have to choose, i would rather not pin windows right now, as transparency is far worse than being able to move a window.


I add my vote to separating pinning and transparency. Also, can we have the pinning actually lock the windows and KEEP them in their locked locations... and not wander all over the screen with each expansion?
AMirrorDarkly
Ekchuah's Shrine Comporium
#233 - 2011-11-28 16:01:10 UTC  |  Edited by: AMirrorDarkly
To the Dev's

Personally, I can't wait till we get the UI seen in the Dominion Trailer Lol

No pressure guys, that is a nice, clean but informative potential for a UI (in my opinion anyway), and your Marketing/trailer designers have set a high bar, for you to get something like that. Big smile

Anyway off the point, you asked if people minimise/collapse tabs.

I know myself and a couple of others that tend to collapse Local while in WH space, then double click to bring it back up when in 0.0/low-sec etc...... Collapsing it when in WH's space means less reliance on it and gives back some screen real estate.

Overviews, selection boxes, local and the directional scanner would be very useful to be able to lock etc, colapse when needed.

I also use shift double click to collapse connected boxes when "Heads down" in Scanning view, but am able to keep my overview up for any unexpected visitors on grid.

Mainly it's for managing screen real estate when doing scanning or PI etc.

Basically, I can work with the removed functions, it's a small inconvenience, but an inconvenience all the same, and more importantly the UI in general is tired and in need of rejuvination/rennervation, no need to spend hundreds of man months doing so, but sooner or later it's gonna need some major TLC. I'm aware this is known internally anyway so no need labour the point.

If this is a step towards getting something updated and improved I can live with that.....

I am impressed however with how quick you guys have come back with the community feedback, please keep it up Smile
TheLostPenguin
Surreal Departure
#234 - 2011-11-28 19:10:11 UTC
oh for goodness sake I've spent idk how long now now trying to post a reply to CCP Optimals wallotext a few pages back but between the forums nomming posts for fun and telling me I can't use HTML when I'm quite blatanly not. It's probaly a good thing Iceland is a few hours flying away or I'd punch somone right about now, FFS fix the damn forums already!!!

On topic please stop thinking you know best when it comes to chaning the ui CCP, nearly every time you break/remove stuff that people use and whilst I agree it's a few constelations from perfect the ui as-is isn't nearly so bad as you make out, every time you 'improve' it all you seem to do is add more things for us to workaround, by all means update and imkprove things but keep existing functionality unless you've actually ASKED the players whether its ok to dump something.
Morwen Lagann
Tyrathlion Interstellar
#235 - 2011-11-29 00:38:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Morwen Lagann
Crucible Patch Notes wrote:
  • UI windows that are snapped to the Neocom or map panel will now stay put as you dock orundock. Unfortunately the root cause was the ‘Lock windows when pinned’option so that has been removed.

    • No. Just no. This is not the solution.

    Snapping behavior is just a convenience. Actually locking windows in place is a requirement.

    You don't need the windows to snap to the nearest thing. That can be dealt with with a little bit of patience when you have a few spare minutes. You need them to stay exactly where you put them so they aren't flying around from stray mouseclicks in combat.

    How difficult is this to understand? After twelve pages of it?

    Morwen Lagann

    CEO, Tyrathlion Interstellar

    Coordinator, Arataka Research Consortium

    Owner, The Golden Masque
    Lake
    The Praxis Initiative
    Gentlemen's Agreement
    #236 - 2011-11-29 08:13:54 UTC
    CCP Optimal wrote:
    Collapsing windows has always seemed like a weird little thing to me, and for some reason it always reminds me of Windows 3.11, which is less than great. Do people use this feature? I know that some people use TAB to collapse/expand all windows, but wouldn't it make more sense to minimize/maximize all windows instead, while allowing you to exclude some windows (such as the overview)?

    What about features like SHIFT-dragging windows to drag an entire snap-group of windows ... is this the first time you ever heard of this or is it a keeper?

    Are there other weird little things in the window system that nobody uses that we could probably axe without much rage?


    Thanks for the response.

    I use the pinning feature all the time, will go mad without it, and most appreciate your apparent commitment to return it.

    Double-click to minimize/tab was actually suggested off-hand by me (to Friggi, iirc) back in '04. Ended up in the next build.

    Some-time later window-shade was added (don't know where this one came from) and the double-click default got switched to this (I've always wanted an option to toggle double-click behavior, maybe you can add that while you're at it). I use this feature extensively, though I'd actually prefer it was the [-] widget and used double-click to minimize instead (more options!).

    Collapsing (shading) windows actually has its history as an "Extension" in the old Mac OS System 7 days called "Windowshade". Apple eventually adopted it in the mainline OS (and there are mods to add it back to OS X). It's very useful for 'peeking' behind a window and (unlike tabbing/minimizing) maintains a sense-of-physical-place for the window (it doesn't require a mouse-movement to undo its effect after taking that peek).
    Teikoku Dorei
    Federal Navy Academy
    Gallente Federation
    #237 - 2011-11-29 21:08:26 UTC
    WTF CCP.

    You did so well with this patch, then you do this.

    Why after all the fanbase consulting and polling would you remove a feature without so much as a whisper about it to us?

      • PUT

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    ITTigerClawIK
    Galactic Rangers
    #238 - 2011-11-30 00:10:27 UTC
    CCP Optimal wrote:
    This was removed on purpose. The feature was becoming increasingly hard to maintain due to technical reasons, and given the fact that very few people even knew of it's existence, we decided to remove it.



    you are kidding right? what do you mean few people knew of its existence... my entire Alliance uses this and now that this is gone i have windows jumping everywhere and boxes accidently being moved.
    Loht D'Ogmai
    Star Frontiers
    Brotherhood of Spacers
    #239 - 2011-11-30 15:47:48 UTC
    ITTigerClawIK wrote:
    CCP Optimal wrote:
    This was removed on purpose. The feature was becoming increasingly hard to maintain due to technical reasons, and given the fact that very few people even knew of it's existence, we decided to remove it.



    you are kidding right? what do you mean few people knew of its existence... my entire Alliance uses this and now that this is gone i have windows jumping everywhere and boxes accidently being moved.


    The few, the proud, and now the annoyed.

    I have windows that go off my screen! So now I can't move them.

    "Oh just undock and redock. Ship loss, liking the game design is not our concern" - The CCP employee who used to have to code "Lock window when pinned section" for every release.
    Scrapyard Bob
    EVE University
    Ivy League
    #240 - 2011-11-30 16:09:41 UTC
    https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=440062#post440062

    Quote:
    The following issues should be fixed in an updated client near you soon™:

    Shift + Enter chat spaces not displaying.
    Locking pinned windows in position.
    Incorrect display of the time multiplier in the Mobile Laboratory UI.
    Issues with the chat channels MOTD.
    I-HUB Indices not displaying correctly.
    Issues with fleet members accessing / using the Orca's corporation hangar.