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Former Slaves Enter Matriculation Program

First post First post
Author
Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#1381 - 2014-02-11 02:14:38 UTC
Eran Mintor wrote:
If a slave owner abandons their slaves on a busy stargate, is that the same as freeing slaves?

If these slaves are disowned by their masters, does that no longer make them slaves?

If these slaves are abandoned in space outside of the Amarr Empire, would enslavers be breaking Amarrian law by capturing people outside of their boundaries?

If these slaves are no longer property of their previous master, what right would anyone (according to Amarrian law) have to resell them on the market?

If you don't own these slaves, how can you sell what is not yours?

I'd like to hear your answers as it sounds to me like you're a simple thief and a criminal of Amarr, Nauplius. While the same could be said of DSTON, I imagine you have more to lose by a tarnishing of your standings with the Empire.

-Eran

I don't think Naups views mortal laws as an obstacle he need worry about. If he is fulfilling his religious tenants I don't think much else matters to him.

Glory to me. Amen. Claudia Victor.

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.

Tahrmal Nalthkh
Disciples of Ston
#1382 - 2014-02-11 02:35:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Tahrmal Nalthkh
Rescue Report:

116.02.11 01:09 (name withheld) (blue) 50 rescued

This death can was abandoned (blue). These rescues are less tense in that we do not have to escape quickly. I am back on board the Assist until the new ship undergoes some more fitting. DSTON Development has instructed us to consolidate our Center management around regional clusters. Manwe will administrate the centers in the Zoohen to Diaderi patrol area. Ston will manage the Centers around the Niarja/Kaap corridor and Khanid Kingdom. I will be managing the Republic and Mandate centers. We will be doing jurisdiction transfers as time allows until the consolidation is complete. Part of this restructuring is to simplify answering inquiries regarding accountability for our operations.

Dr. Tahrmal Nalthkh CEO, DSTON Rescue Pilot

Eran Mintor
Metropolis Commercial Consortium
#1383 - 2014-02-11 02:37:30 UTC
Perhaps, but the Nauplius I remember from my time in the 24th was a law-abiding Amarrian citizen. If he is breaking Amarrian laws then he might want to reconsider his course of action and methods of spreading the faith...before hes excommunicated and compared to Odelya d'Hanguest.

-Eran
Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#1384 - 2014-02-11 02:53:05 UTC
Eran Mintor wrote:
Perhaps, but the Nauplius I remember from my time in the 24th was a law-abiding Amarrian citizen. If he is breaking Amarrian laws then he might want to reconsider his course of action and methods of spreading the faith...before hes excommunicated and compared to Odelya d'Hanguest.

-Eran


People change. Maybe he committed something he considers a grave sin, and is trying to work himself back into his God's favor via taking slaves. Or maybe he's just gone crazy in a sadistic sort of way from being in space to long. We may never know.

Glory to me. Amen. Claudia Victor.

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.

Eran Mintor
Metropolis Commercial Consortium
#1385 - 2014-02-11 02:59:09 UTC
I disagree. However, I'm sure Nauplius can answer for himself.

-Eran
Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#1386 - 2014-02-11 03:07:19 UTC
Eran Mintor wrote:
I disagree. However, I'm sure Nauplius can answer for himself.

-Eran

It's all idle speculation on my part, I make no attempts to truly understand why Nauppie is the way he is. Besides, it would make the cluster that much duller if he wasn't himself.

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.

Karynn Denton
Lekhantsi Salvage Depot
#1387 - 2014-02-11 12:34:37 UTC
Ston Momaki wrote:

How did I know this might be the response from one who self identifies as a booster smuggler. Drug confiscations are a "tiny" portion of our confiscation work. Confiscations are kept completely separate from our Matriculations Centers. They are in separate stations. The weapons, ammo, and drugs we confiscate will never be used again. Not even the materials they are made of will be used again. They are in perpetual storage, so no, you can't have them, Ms. Denton. That said we are happy to arrange verification through a third party acceptable to both of us if you so desire. We are quite happy with our security arrangements in all our station environments, but thanks for the offer.


As you wish, Pilot Momaki.

One would think, that with several hostile parties taking an interest in your work lately, that you'd be more receptive to offers of assistance.

Do take care out there.

Karynn Denton

Caravan Master

Nauplius
Hoi Andrapodistai
#1388 - 2014-02-11 13:09:07 UTC
Eran Mintor wrote:
If a slave owner abandons their slaves on a busy stargate, is that the same as freeing slaves?

If these slaves are disowned by their masters, does that no longer make them slaves?

If these slaves are abandoned in space outside of the Amarr Empire, would enslavers be breaking Amarrian law by capturing people outside of their boundaries?

If these slaves are no longer property of their previous master, what right would anyone (according to Amarrian law) have to resell them on the market?

If you don't own these slaves, how can you sell what is not yours?

I'd like to hear your answers as it sounds to me like you're a simple thief and a criminal of Amarr, Nauplius. While the same could be said of DSTON, I imagine you have more to lose by a tarnishing of your standings with the Empire.

-Eran


Key Points:

  • I sell slaves not to Empyreans but to those most qualified to adjudicate edge cases of ownership and manumission — the Amarr Civil Service, which maintains standing buy orders for slaves throughout Amarr space.
  • Attempted execution of slaves by jettisoning them into space is not a legal instrument of manumission. That would require papers, lawyers, witnesses, and so forth. The slaves thus retain the status of slaves.
  • Were it not for the existence of the Disciples of Ston, I would not interfere with those who choose to execute slaves by jettisoning them into space. Such slaves would go and meet God and face the Judgement, where they would have their fair chance. Since the Disciples of Ston do exist, however, I am obligated to intervene — for all slaves ripped from the bosom of holy Amarr and taught the blasphemies of liberal religion and freedom will be denied entry into Paradise and will glorify God in their destruction.
  • The "Amarr Bloc" when it existed as such always considered CONCORD rules and such orthogonal to Amarrianness. A pilot, therefore, could have poor security status or this or that "flag" without being considered a criminal in the eyes of other Amarr loyalist pilots.
Anabella Rella
Gradient
Electus Matari
#1389 - 2014-02-11 16:55:47 UTC
Nauplius you (and others like you) are completely insane and the reason why we Minmatar can never rest in our vigilence against your aggression. You're a zealot, sociopath, xenophobe and murderer. I have (slightly) more respect for Diana Kim in that she only wants to destroy one nation, while you want to destroy all who oppose your maniacal imperial vision and your vile, twisted religion.

I will continue replenishing the bounty on your miserable head to reward those who destroy your ships and clones. I look forward to the day when I'm again a member of the TLF so that I can hunt you myself and put you down like the filthy, rabid beast you are.

When the world is running down, you make the best of what's still around.

Ston Momaki
Disciples of Ston
#1390 - 2014-02-11 19:05:39 UTC
Rescue Report:

116.02.11 18:56 17 people

This rescue was made while returning from business in the Mandate and Republic together with Dr. Nalthkh. I was there to complete transfer documents handing administrative duties over to him for all our Centers in the Republic and the Mandate. Dr. Nalthkh is our most gifted administrator, so he will have charge of our largest centers that reside in this areas. The exception is Egbinger. We have a very small center there that is independent and wants to be left that way. They are an interesting group consisting of a small band of former slaves, castaway militants, one scientist and a former corporate VIP. They are happy the way they are and have asked to be left alone. Alone, they will be left.

The Disciples of Ston bid you peace

Ston Momaki
Disciples of Ston
#1391 - 2014-02-12 01:24:11 UTC
Rescue Report:

116.02.11 19:48 240 Elite Slaves rescued from Joint Harvest Plantation, Kaaputenen VIII Moon 4

It has been suggested to me that detailed records of these rescues be kept and a report submitted to the House of Records regarding the contracting of illegal slave labor by Joint Harvest to construction projects in other stations in non-slave sovereignties in violation of treaty etc. This is on going and we are keeping transcripts of all conversations including agents names, times and locations. We believe one particular agent in this station is showing a pattern of such behavior.

The Disciples of Ston bid you peace

Nauplius
Hoi Andrapodistai
#1392 - 2014-02-12 02:36:59 UTC
Anabella Rella wrote:
Nauplius you (and others like you) are completely insane and the reason why we Minmatar can never rest in our vigilence against your aggression. You're a zealot, sociopath, xenophobe and murderer. I have (slightly) more respect for Diana Kim in that she only wants to destroy one nation, while you want to destroy all who oppose your maniacal imperial vision and your vile, twisted religion.

I will continue replenishing the bounty on your miserable head to reward those who destroy your ships and clones. I look forward to the day when I'm again a member of the TLF so that I can hunt you myself and put you down like the filthy, rabid beast you are.


Woe to her who sets bounties upon holy and righteous servants of God! For on the Day of Days, the Day of Wrath, such bounties must be repaid with interest! And a just God will charge an usurious interest rate indeed!

Eran Mintor
Metropolis Commercial Consortium
#1393 - 2014-02-12 05:12:33 UTC
Nauplius wrote:
Eran Mintor wrote:
If a slave owner abandons their slaves on a busy stargate, is that the same as freeing slaves?

If these slaves are disowned by their masters, does that no longer make them slaves?

If these slaves are abandoned in space outside of the Amarr Empire, would enslavers be breaking Amarrian law by capturing people outside of their boundaries?

If these slaves are no longer property of their previous master, what right would anyone (according to Amarrian law) have to resell them on the market?

If you don't own these slaves, how can you sell what is not yours?

I'd like to hear your answers as it sounds to me like you're a simple thief and a criminal of Amarr, Nauplius. While the same could be said of DSTON, I imagine you have more to lose by a tarnishing of your standings with the Empire.

-Eran


Key Points:

  • I sell slaves not to Empyreans but to those most qualified to adjudicate edge cases of ownership and manumission — the Amarr Civil Service, which maintains standing buy orders for slaves throughout Amarr space.
  • Attempted execution of slaves by jettisoning them into space is not a legal instrument of manumission. That would require papers, lawyers, witnesses, and so forth. The slaves thus retain the status of slaves.
  • Were it not for the existence of the Disciples of Ston, I would not interfere with those who choose to execute slaves by jettisoning them into space. Such slaves would go and meet God and face the Judgement, where they would have their fair chance. Since the Disciples of Ston do exist, however, I am obligated to intervene — for all slaves ripped from the bosom of holy Amarr and taught the blasphemies of liberal religion and freedom will be denied entry into Paradise and will glorify God in their destruction.
  • The "Amarr Bloc" when it existed as such always considered CONCORD rules and such orthogonal to Amarrianness. A pilot, therefore, could have poor security status or this or that "flag" without being considered a criminal in the eyes of other Amarr loyalist pilots.


Quote:
The Empire signed several treaties that prevented it from taking slaves from other nations, though it was not barred from enslaving criminals and POWs.


Source.

Sir, are you suggesting you openly break Amarr treaties because you have some notion that these treaties are "orthogonal" (are you sure that's the right use a geometric word?)? If you think this treaty is invalid, which other ones do you disregard?

Further, you didn't really answer the questions posed. You're a criminal because you're taking slaves outside of the mandated space. I didn't mention security status or flags. It should be obvious enough that you're breaking laws when you yourself have to smuggle slaves through the borders, risking confiscation, fines, and standings loss.

Also, even if DSTON didn't exist, there are plenty of other pilots in the "death-can" community who are doing similar, if not the same work without being so vocal about it.

-Eran
Nauplius
Hoi Andrapodistai
#1394 - 2014-02-12 14:43:16 UTC
Eran Mintor wrote:

Sir, are you suggesting you openly break Amarr treaties because you have some notion that these treaties are "orthogonal" (are you sure that's the right use a geometric word?)? If you think this treaty is invalid, which other ones do you disregard?

Further, you didn't really answer the questions posed. You're a criminal because you're taking slaves outside of the mandated space. I didn't mention security status or flags. It should be obvious enough that you're breaking laws when you yourself have to smuggle slaves through the borders, risking confiscation, fines, and standings loss.

Also, even if DSTON didn't exist, there are plenty of other pilots in the "death-can" community who are doing similar, if not the same work without being so vocal about it.

-Eran


Re-Enslavement Report:
2014-02-12 03:29 42 Slaves
2014-02-12 12:33 78 Slaves


  • Perhaps you misunderstand the mechanics of jetcan re-enslavement. Substantially all recovered slaves are found on the Amarr side of border systems like Jark. The above listed 120 Slaves were found in Niarja (they were chained, collared, stuffed full of Vitoc, and were or will be sold back into slavery at Akhragan V, Amarr Civil Service). I am, therefore, not "guilty" of "trafficking" slaves through the space the non-Amarr subhumans believe to be their own (the Empress in her wisdom has indulged the latter belief, for now), as I am taking slaves from the Amarr side of a border to a slave market deeper in Amarr space.
  • Partly in response to concerns over "theft" I have been contacting the Empyreans who jettison slaves into space, letting them know of the danger the jetcan execution method poses to the souls of the jettisoned slaves (who might be recovered by DSTON). None have ever objected to the re-enslavement of the slaves I recovered. Keep in mind that we Empyreans are licensed Privateers; we are not breaking Amarrian law by removing cargo from a jetcan that does not belong to us; we only become suspects in the eyes of CONCORD by so doing.
  • The Disciples of Ston/Molok are different in kind from previous rescue organizations like the Space Nuns. DSTON is explicitly anti-slavery and "frees" the people it "rescues" from slavery. They have, for example, brought an unholy artifact, the Khumaak, to one of their centers so the Minmatar subhumans there could reverence it. That is not something that I recall the Space Nuns ever doing, and so unlike others, the Disciples of Ston fasttrack their victims straight to Damnation and must be opposed.

Constantin Baracca
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#1395 - 2014-02-12 16:06:55 UTC
I few things, if I am to put on my legal hat for a second, that might complicate matters (I do not claim to be a certified counsel on any empire's laws, though the amount of time I've had to spend with lawyers of all nationalities is staggering).


  • DSTON is a capsuleer organization not specifically aligned to the Amarr Empire. This creates a certain amount of legal distance no matter where you are. While I don't think Nauplius is necessarily breaking any law for that very reason, DSTON has precisely the same "protections", as it were. The laws they are subject to apply to interstellar, foreign capsuleers in Amarrian space, which are somewhat different than the laws governing us on the ground and when we are citizens. Granted, if the Empire ever decides they have crossed the line and are doing something illegal, they may not have recourse to the same legal protections we have as Amarrians in Amarrian space. Still, if they can fly around in the Mandate, I'll assume for the sake of argument that they have performed services on behalf of the Amarr Empire to warrant their trust or local authorities don't bother with them.

  • Slaves are legally defined as "property" (basically) whose use and freedom are entirely at the discretion of their masters. As such, there is a legal quandary, as yet unanswered, as to whether jettisoning them into space is an act of liberation on behalf of their masters or their representatives, namely, whether casting them out is in and of itself a legal act of release. They certainly aren't always going to pick them back up again. In this case, they have, at various times, been counted as "released", "retained", or "jetsam, privy to salvage." I don't think anyone in a higher court has rectified precisely what the status is of ejected slaves, as they have been released from service with no expectation of retainment, but have not had the proper paperwork filed to do so. Scripturally, this sort of thing isn't covered word-by-word. It would be a boon if the Privy Council could step in and say whether or not the act of losing a slave via can jettison constitutes a release of liability. Certainly, Nauplius isn't returning them to their owners, he's selling them back, so the same laws would also apply to his operation, in this respect. I do think that, in more liberal portions of the Empire, such as the Mandate, you might get a adjucator to lean farther into the "released" territory, which might explain how DSTON hasn't been expelled or molested.

  • DSTON are not Holders. I don't see this being an issue in foreign space, as DSTON are not technically legal holders of property in their other operations; slaves aren't property in the other empires. However, DSTON members are not, even as foreign capsuleers, permitted to retain the ownership of slaves without a license granted by a qualified Holder. Therefore, they may pick up those slaves in Amarrian space as jetsam, but I'm not sure they could legally be described as having taken ownership of that property. I will, for the sake of argument, assume Nauplius is a qualified, certified, and licensed slaver and that this point isn't necessary for him to consider. However, I am not sure DSTON can legally hold and move those slaves unless the act of jettisoning them is legally bound to be an act of release itself (thus DSTON would then be assisting a stranded freedman). That may get in their way, though.


As I said, I'm not personally a lawyer (and have not even been personally licensed to administer slaves, for obvious reasons, for many years). These are just the legal issues that come to mind.

"What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul?"

-Matthew 16:26

Tahrmal Nalthkh
Disciples of Ston
#1396 - 2014-02-12 18:28:54 UTC
Rescue Report:

116.02.12 16:06 Chioru Pazvante 38 rescued, Ston Momaki > 116.02.12 16:05 Shalimar Dante 58 people
116.02.12 16:24 Confiscation: 13.3 million including 18 tech two battle drones, 5300 rounds of Medium factional and tech 2 projectile rounds.

I was on my way back to Kaaputenen from Mandate space just in my pod and passing through Niarja, I noted 3 cans, two being deathcans and one containing weapons and ammo. Ston was in pod so I contacted him, boarded the DSS Plowshare in Kaap and we headed to the scene. Teaming up on these kinds of situations is a good way to go. I am reporting both the deathcan rescues as indicated. While Ston tended to the new arrivals back in Kaap, I headed back out with the Plowshare and we accomplished our first major arms confiscation as also reported above. These weapons will never again be used. Never again will lives be taken with these instruments nor destruction caused by their use.

Dr. Tahrmal Nalthkh CEO, DSTON Rescue Pilot

Tahrmal Nalthkh
Disciples of Ston
#1397 - 2014-02-13 16:43:22 UTC
Rescue Report:

116.02.12 21:03 Ramus Letifer 12 people (Ston), Zlobniy'crusher 13 rescued (Me)
116.02.13 00:19 Mechoj Nomreps e 10 rescued

Another teams rescue with Ston is reported above. Its a safer way to do things when circumstance make it possible. This isn't usually the case. I'm learning the finer points on when to wait out timers and when to attempt multi-deathcan rescues immediately. We are considering the possibility of subcontracting patrol duties to interested pilots who may want to spend a week or so at a time doing something different. We have had to leave the Mandate/Republic crossing mostly unattended. Even though the volume is low , there are still some rescues and lives to be saved.

Dr. Tahrmal Nalthkh CEO, DSTON Rescue Pilot

Nauplius
Hoi Andrapodistai
#1398 - 2014-02-14 01:10:46 UTC
Re-Enslavement Report:
2014-02-13 00:20 40 Slaves
2014-02-13 04:10 50 Slaves, 10 Elite Slaves
2014-02-13 20:48 10 Slaves
2014-02-13 21:13 50 Slaves
(150 Total)

There is a considerable amount of Re-Enslavement News:

  • As I have reported earlier, I send letters to pilots who jettison slaves into space warning them of the danger to their slaves' souls as long as the Disciples of Ston/Molok prowl the spacelanes. One pilot took it upon himself to publish one of these letters in a prominent forum for Empyreans. The word is getting out — execute your slaves if you must, but for the sake of their souls, shoot the slaves after jettisoning them.
  • The Disciples of Ston/Molok are monitoring my activity closely. The 40 person re-enslavement listed above was actually part of a 50 person jetcan; however, Calyce Io only had room in her Magnate for 40 — she scooped them while a Stonite agent observed from a distance; he later took the rest. Therefore, in anticipation of future partial re-enslavements; I am instituting Re-Enslavement Triage. Nubile females will receive top re-enslavement priority, in anticipation of their use as breeder slaves. Sebiestor engineers and Brutor of even larger than normal build get next priority. If necessary, children and the elderly will be left behind for the Disciples of Ston/Molok, and they will glorify God in their destruction.
  • It is well that the Disciples of Ston/Molok are trying to re institute coverage of Jark. That 10 person re-enslavement listed above came from there; those 10 were chained, collared, stuffed full of Vitoc, and will be sold back into slavery.
  • There is evidence that Empyreans who oppose me may be placing buy orders for slaves in my usual selling location in order to intercept my attempted re-enslavements. I do not believe they have been successful yet; however, I shall remain vigilant.

Amen. Amarr Victor.
Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#1399 - 2014-02-14 01:29:27 UTC
Nauplius wrote:
Nubile females will receive top re-enslavement priority, in anticipation of their use as breeder slaves

Always suspected vetox wasn't the only thing you stuffed them with, Naups... Ugh

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.

Saya Ishikari
Ishukone-Raata Technological Research Institute
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#1400 - 2014-02-14 01:51:06 UTC
Claudia Osyn wrote:
Nauplius wrote:
Nubile females will receive top re-enslavement priority, in anticipation of their use as breeder slaves

Always suspected vetox wasn't the only thing you stuffed them with, Naups... Ugh

Unsurprising.

"At the end of it all, we have only what we've left in our wake to be remembered by." -Kyoko Ishikari, YC 95 - YC 117