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Dev blog: Insights into 2013 production and destruction

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Yonis Kador
KADORCORP
#41 - 2014-02-07 00:34:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Yonis Kador
Omg. Best dev blog ever. Not only do I have a new desktop background now (production vs. destruction - nice graphic btw) but I'm already staring at it, strategizing, looking at where things are and where they need to be, on and on. And I have little doubt this will continue for some time.

So thanks for that.

One quick note though. On the link provided showing the number of ship kills in 2013:

http://jsfiddle.net/ccpquant/2HU6v/embedded/result/

my first thought was what the hell is going on in Couster and Deepari? Those circles are larger than Rens and Hek! But since these are career agent systems for new players, and since one of those missions requires new players to destroy a ship, I now see almost all of the career agent systems have disproportionately large circles on the graphic. I'm not sure how you'd filter out those ship kills, but I think the data would be more...useful, maybe? without the inclusion of new player mission-mandated ship destruction. And if, after removing those specific kills, those circles are still larger than Rens and Hek, somebody had better call in the ISD!

Also, since the career agent kills appear to be represented, the data has to be coming from the api and not only kbs, no? Would there be a way to filter npc ship kills vs player kills? In other words, a graphic showing where most ppl are losing ships while missioning vs where most are losing them in combat pvp? If so, it would be another data subset very useful to industrialists.

I'l loving this. Totally a fan of EVE graph pornography. Keep it coming.

Thanks. Big smile

YK
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#42 - 2014-02-07 01:08:07 UTC
Sephira Galamore wrote:
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
A question on production stats. Where something is produced in multiple stages (e.g. one person produces Magnetometric Sensor Clusters then another person uses those as precursors to build an Oneiros), is that considered two acts of production? If so that will distort the figures somewhat.

From the blog:
CCP Quant wrote:
A few important things I'd like to note:
[...]
* Production values are end products, not components.
[...]



Some end products are components, however.

A Megathron is an end product, but it is a component of building a Kronos.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Abla Tive
#43 - 2014-02-07 01:19:49 UTC
I think that it is unfair to disclose industrial powerhouses in high sec but not in null sec.

As you can plainly see lots of stuff gets blown up in high sec.
In other words, we have security concerns too!
Arana Mirelin
Te'Rava Industries
#44 - 2014-02-07 01:33:46 UTC
Abla Tive wrote:
I think that it is unfair to disclose industrial powerhouses in high sec but not in null sec.

As you can plainly see lots of stuff gets blown up in high sec.
In other words, we have security concerns too!


What do you expect that most of null sec production would be? Since everyone is talking about the advantages of high sec manufacture, what is built out there are mostly ships / equipment that can only be built outside high sec (drugs, capitals, super capitals).

It's a completely different issue dealing with the run of the mill gankers in high sec than if you have a high value target which can only be built at a POS and takes over a month to complete.
Jennai
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2014-02-07 01:47:12 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
The biggest reason that not as much industry is done in null is because the ISK/ hour in other null sec opportunities far outstrips manufacturing. People manufacture in high sec because it is not only marginally safer, but because the ISK/ hour for other high options suck.


I manufacture in highsec because it has good refineries in 50-slot stations so I can just make a buy order for huge amounts of minerals and they magically appear where I need them with no hauling/scouting/contracting required.

if they nerf null income, we'lll just go back to the old days of every null resident having a highsec L4 mission alt that they login whenever they need money. if they nerf highsec factories/refineries at the same time, it'll break a lot of markets and probably end up with null residents buying minerals in highsec to compress and ship to null factories because most of the miners are in highsec.
Viktor Kyon
ROYAL.
#46 - 2014-02-07 02:04:22 UTC
This is cool but did you have to make the graph look like that? I find it really uncomfortable to look at Sad
Abla Tive
#47 - 2014-02-07 02:30:37 UTC
Arana Mirelin wrote:


It's a completely different issue dealing with the run of the mill gankers in high sec than if you have a high value target which can only be built at a POS and takes over a month to complete.

Yes, I understand.

It is ok for CCP to draw attention to where I have set up PI infrastructure, POCOs and have large freighter loads of valuable materials going in and out. But it is not ok for CCP to reveal where other players are doing similar activities because it is *dangerous*

Seems fair to me. Not.
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#48 - 2014-02-07 03:25:53 UTC
Abla Tive wrote:
Arana Mirelin wrote:


It's a completely different issue dealing with the run of the mill gankers in high sec than if you have a high value target which can only be built at a POS and takes over a month to complete.

Yes, I understand.

It is ok for CCP to draw attention to where I have set up PI infrastructure, POCOs and have large freighter loads of valuable materials going in and out. But it is not ok for CCP to reveal where other players are doing similar activities because it is *dangerous*

Seems fair to me. Not.


Highsec production is much less localised than nullsec production and much less disruptable.

In null, an alliance can have two trillion ISK worth of Titans in build in one system, all vulnerable to attack.

In high, even if someone runs an operation building 200b of battleships in a month and gets wardecced by a determined entity that can project serious force into highsec (say RVB), that is only minimally disruptive. It might make you lose a day or two of production time if you encounter delays restocking a specific mineral, but your thousands of battleship hulls remain protected in the station.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#49 - 2014-02-07 05:25:27 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:

Would you put a car factory in the middle of a warzone? Or even a gun factory?

How about the middle of the Arctic?

No, of course not. For MANY different reasons.


Are any of those things games?
Gargep Farrow
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#50 - 2014-02-07 06:19:39 UTC
Arana Mirelin wrote:
Abla Tive wrote:
I think that it is unfair to disclose industrial powerhouses in high sec but not in null sec.

As you can plainly see lots of stuff gets blown up in high sec.
In other words, we have security concerns too!


What do you expect that most of null sec production would be? Since everyone is talking about the advantages of high sec manufacture, what is built out there are mostly ships / equipment that can only be built outside high sec (drugs, capitals, super capitals).

It's a completely different issue dealing with the run of the mill gankers in high sec than if you have a high value target which can only be built at a POS and takes over a month to complete.

I normally do not comment on Null issues, because I dont play there and dont have the knowledge/experience to say much. Having heard all the complaints about Null industry I have to wonder if the construction times on Capitols and super caps is the real issue. If you have those ships tying up slots for long periods, that will reduce slots for other jobs. Do those ships need their own slot types?
Batolemaeus
Mahlstrom
Northern Associates.
#51 - 2014-02-07 06:40:49 UTC
Gargep Farrow wrote:
Arana Mirelin wrote:
Abla Tive wrote:
I think that it is unfair to disclose industrial powerhouses in high sec but not in null sec.

As you can plainly see lots of stuff gets blown up in high sec.
In other words, we have security concerns too!


What do you expect that most of null sec production would be? Since everyone is talking about the advantages of high sec manufacture, what is built out there are mostly ships / equipment that can only be built outside high sec (drugs, capitals, super capitals).

It's a completely different issue dealing with the run of the mill gankers in high sec than if you have a high value target which can only be built at a POS and takes over a month to complete.

I normally do not comment on Null issues, because I dont play there and dont have the knowledge/experience to say much. Having heard all the complaints about Null industry I have to wonder if the construction times on Capitols and super caps is the real issue. If you have those ships tying up slots for long periods, that will reduce slots for other jobs. Do those ships need their own slot types?


Irrelevant. Supers are built in POS, not in outposts. They already have their own assembly arrays.

The lack of slots to sustain even a medium sized alliance is an issue, but it's way down the list of things that are **** about 0.0. Useless POS refineries, low base refining amount on outposts, severely nerfed mining, impossibility to lock down a system properly to prevent someone from throwing a bunch of bombs at your mining fleet, difficulty of moving minerals (you need to move them from refinery outpost to manufacturing outpost via gates/jumpbridge), which means you are very predictable since you need to move a lot... it all piles up. Why deal with all that when you can eat a 20M isk markup on battleships and import?
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#52 - 2014-02-07 11:11:56 UTC
CCP Quant wrote:
Just to keep this thread in sync with reddit

I've made a few forks of the graph on JSFiddle by requests... I see where this is going so I think I'll make due with these for now Big smile


EVE Online destruction 2014 to date

EVE Online ships destroyed 2014 to date

EVE Online ships destroyed in 2013


Oh and nice stats Big smile :
TornSoul wrote:
A quick random collection of numbers that came to mind as "interesting":

Total 2013 destruction : 476.5 Trillion ISK

The 2014 B-R5RB Battle (11T ISK) :
- 8.4 days worth of total EVE universe destruction in 2013 (2.4% of total)
- 1.1 years of total Jita destruction (Jita is a crazy place!)

Jita :
- 2% of total universe destruction (Jita is a crazy place!)
- It takes the 1,948 safest places in EVE (25.3% of EVE) to surpass the destruction in Jita
- 2.8 times as destructive as the 2nd most (Amarr)


Polaris: Only system with Zero destruction what so ever (Polaris is a boring place!)
- and btw not reachable by mere mortals.
- and is probably there by mistake - as it seems Jove space has in fact been excluded.

Safest (actually reachable) 2013 system : O9K-FT (The Kalevala Expanse) with just 56.3M ISK worth destroyed.


Top 20 of systems (0.2% of all systems) has 10% of all destruction.
Top 462 systems (6% of all systems) has 50% of all destruction.


High-sec (14.3% of systems) : 27.8% of all destruction - 199.8B ISK/system
Low-sec (10.4% of systems) : 25.8% of all destruction - 153.1B ISK/system
Null-sec (42.8% of systems) : 36.9% of all destruction - 53.4 B ISK/system
WH-space (32.4% of systems) : 9.5% of all destruction - 18.1 B ISK/system




Good on my friends D400 and st0ner smurf for helping push those Uedama and Niarja figures so high.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#53 - 2014-02-07 13:51:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Hops
Jenn aSide wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:

Would you put a car factory in the middle of a warzone? Or even a gun factory?

How about the middle of the Arctic?

No, of course not. For MANY different reasons.


Are any of those things games?


The act of participating in an economy is widely considered to be a game. See: game theory.

Batolemaeus wrote:
The lack of slots to sustain even a medium sized alliance is an issue


Why do people keep repeating this myth? It's 100% untrue.

The differential between highsec and nullsec has nothing to do with slot availability. :

Pinky Hops wrote:
Basically, if all of nullsec was populated with manufacturing stations, it would have something like 10x the production capacity of highsec.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#54 - 2014-02-07 14:04:01 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:


[quote=Pinky Hops]Basically, if all of nullsec was populated with manufacturing stations, it would have something like 10x the production capacity of highsec.


In 10 years of EVE online despite wars killing missions of space ships, furious building activity (hundreds of expensive stations) null sec only has something like 3% of high sec's industrial capacity. Trillions of isk and millions of actual human man hours spent on 3% of the Industrial capacity high sec gets FOR FREE.

And your solution to this screwed up situation is quadrillions more isk and hundreds of millions more man hours to have more industrial capacity than you types get FOR FREE?

Lets all be glad Pinky Hops isn't CCP Pinky Hops.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#55 - 2014-02-07 14:07:50 UTC
Jennai wrote:
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
The biggest reason that not as much industry is done in null is because the ISK/ hour in other null sec opportunities far outstrips manufacturing. People manufacture in high sec because it is not only marginally safer, but because the ISK/ hour for other high options suck.


I manufacture in highsec because it has good refineries in 50-slot stations so I can just make a buy order for huge amounts of minerals and they magically appear where I need them with no hauling/scouting/contracting required.

if they nerf null income, we'lll just go back to the old days of every null resident having a highsec L4 mission alt that they login whenever they need money. if they nerf highsec factories/refineries at the same time, it'll break a lot of markets and probably end up with null residents buying minerals in highsec to compress and ship to null factories because most of the miners are in highsec.


Don't worry about that guy lol, he wouldn't be Dinsdale if he didn't come up with self serving untruths about everything.
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#56 - 2014-02-07 14:22:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Hops
Jenn aSide wrote:
In 10 years of EVE online despite wars killing missions of space ships, furious building activity (hundreds of expensive stations) null sec only has something like 3% of high sec's industrial capacity. Trillions of isk and millions of actual human man hours spent on 3% of the Industrial capacity high sec gets FOR FREE.

And your solution to this screwed up situation is quadrillions more isk and hundreds of millions more man hours to have more industrial capacity than you types get FOR FREE?


Yup.

There's a lot of land in the Arctic. You could fill it with many car factories if you wanted, but it's still not a wise idea to do it in general, which is why it isn't done.

This isn't rocket science.

Moving production into nullsec wouldn't make the game better -- it would just make industry something you need to be in a giant coalition to do properly, which would SUCK for the game.

PvP in nullsec? Heck yes -- sign me up.

Industry in nullsec? Hell no.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#57 - 2014-02-07 15:26:37 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
In 10 years of EVE online despite wars killing missions of space ships, furious building activity (hundreds of expensive stations) null sec only has something like 3% of high sec's industrial capacity. Trillions of isk and millions of actual human man hours spent on 3% of the Industrial capacity high sec gets FOR FREE.

And your solution to this screwed up situation is quadrillions more isk and hundreds of millions more man hours to have more industrial capacity than you types get FOR FREE?


Yup.

There's a lot of land in the Arctic. You could fill it with many car factories if you wanted, but it's still not a wise idea to do it in general, which is why it isn't done.

This isn't rocket science.

Moving production into nullsec wouldn't make the game better -- it would just make industry something you need to be in a giant coalition to do properly, which would SUCK for the game.

PvP in nullsec? Heck yes -- sign me up.

Industry in nullsec? Hell no.


We're talking about EVE online, Not Pinky Hops personal preferences online. Null (or any) players wanting to and being able to live in null (or any) space rather than being shackled to "the npc core worlds" so to speak would be a better thing for the game in general.

Because having things (like null factories) to win or lose, to fight over or destroy yourself to keep your enemy from getting them is a better game play experience than "gee, lets build stuff in safety , stuff it into a jump freighter, make 2 jumps and log off from boredom".
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#58 - 2014-02-07 15:39:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Hops
Jenn aSide wrote:
We're talking about EVE online, Not Pinky Hops personal preferences online.


Believe it or not, game theory/economic theory works in general, regardless of context. Meaning, it doesn't matter if we are talking about "just a video game" or "real life" or some theoretical construct.

The same basic principles apply to all.

Jenn aSide wrote:
Null (or any) players wanting to and being able to live in null (or any) space rather than being shackled to "the npc core worlds" so to speak would be a better thing for the game in general.


No part of space is currently capable of supplying every resource. This is by design, and I don't think that will ever change.

CCP literally rigged it that way. You can't live in a wormhole without importing goods because not everything spawns there. The same is true for nullsec, lowsec, and even highsec.

The reason most goods are available on the market in highsec is because people spend the time to import them. Why? Because it's a convenient trade hub - and that will never change.

People don't bother trying to create true trade hubs in nullsec because it's crappy for everybody involved. Look at how much damage was done in Jita - and that was highsec. There will never be a "nullsec Jita" because people aren't going to want to take the risk just to buy and sell their goods.

Jenn aSide wrote:
Because having things (like null factories) to win or lose, to fight over or destroy yourself to keep your enemy from getting them is a better game play experience than "gee, lets build stuff in safety , stuff it into a jump freighter, make 2 jumps and log off from boredom".


You're basically saying people should sacrifice productivity in order to have fun. People do this anyways - but nobody will ever cede it as a requirement....Probably because for some people, high productivity IS fun.

Not everybody has the same view of "fun" as you do. Being forced into a giant coalition so I can manufacture in nullsec does not sound like "fun" to me. I don't want to be in a giant nullsec coalition...And these days, if you aren't in a giant coalition, your only other options are NPC null or wormholes. Both of which I'm fairly certain will always be horrific for general industry.
Batolemaeus
Mahlstrom
Northern Associates.
#59 - 2014-02-07 15:54:09 UTC
Pinky Hops wrote:

The differential between highsec and nullsec has nothing to do with slot availability. :


Your reading comprehension is as terrible as your posting.
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#60 - 2014-02-07 16:14:07 UTC
Batolemaeus wrote:
Pinky Hops wrote:

The differential between highsec and nullsec has nothing to do with slot availability. :


Your reading comprehension is as terrible as your posting.


You didn't read properly. Your post is terrible.

There, I contributed as much as you.