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Celestis and Damps must be nerfed to compensate for drone assist
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Theodoric Darkwind
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2014-02-06 21:23:58 UTC
If you are removing drone assist as a viable tactic for large fleet engagements then you must nerf the Celestis and Sensor Damps to compensate.

Drone assist was the only real defense against the massed formations of Celestii fielded by the CFC called **** You Fleet. A single Celestis could shut down two of any ship that wasn't immune to EWAR, this is all done using a hull and fit that are dirt cheap and require little in the way of SP to use effectively.

Under the current meta a Celestis is more effective in a large fleet engagement than a pre-nerf Blackbird ever was. You nerfed Blackbirds and ECM for less than what the Celestis is doing now.
Alundil
Rolled Out
#2 - 2014-02-06 22:34:06 UTC
A Blackbird landing jams prevents any target acquisition whatsoever by the affected ship.
A Celetis landing damps lengthens the time to acquire said target by the affected ship, or reduces the targeting range of the affected ship.

It appears that the Celestis actually has less serious impact on the affected ship than the Blackbird. I.e. Some ability to target is far better than none.

Calling drone assist "the only real defense against massed formations of Celestis" is hyperbole and inaccurate. Having flown in, and against the F-U Fleet doctrine I can state that drone assist is hardly the only counter.

Let me provide some very viable alternatives:

Sniping ABCs - a decent contigent will alpha Celestis off of the field by the dozens and quickly make that ewar squad nearly useless
AHAC - zealots, particularly, because they are close to the tankiest ships in the game for the resists/size/sig and can afford to get into shorter ranges and simply chew through fleets like that.
Bombers - Celestis die hilariously in large clusters of fail when even decent bomber squads can get on grid with them.

And those are just some of the less inventive solutions to ewar contingents that have been used in the past 2 years or so. There are others that are more unique and interesting.

Celestis aren't the problem. Static fleet comps that fail to adjust to the changing game mechanics are. Drone assist is changing. So, too, should the typical counters etc etc etc ad nausuem.

I'm right behind you
Seranova Farreach
Biomass Negative
#3 - 2014-02-06 22:37:10 UTC
i find this laughable.. people used to cry soo hard about ECM.. and now? crying hard about Damps.. adapt.. fly mauraurders for an Anti-FU fleet or use ECCM and backup arrays or SEBOs

[u]___________________ http://i.imgur.com/d9Ee2ik.jpg[/u]
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2014-02-06 22:41:28 UTC
Celestii are annoying, but each ship must be controlled by the pilot, as opposed to the 'assign all drones, go take a nap' approach offered by the current drone assist. And.... they are rather fragile. They may or may not need a slight nerf, but that has absolutely nothing to do with Drone assist.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#5 - 2014-02-06 22:54:27 UTC

Damps are powerful. They used to be even more powerful but were nerfed a bit. Recently, they were nerfed again with the overheat changes. Despite this, I still agree that damps are an extremely powerful form of ewar. However, your proposition is absolutely ridiculous!

The CFC Celestis fleet required coordinating damps on 100's of targets from 100's of ships. To pull this off effectively requires a large amount of player coordination. This does not scale well, and while you might find these fleets annoying, they are not uncounterable. Drones are a great way to counter them, and still are!

Drone assist allows ONE pilot to coordination the firepower of 100's of ships. To pull this off effectively is so simple that a toddler could do it. Frankly this scales too well, and that is why it is being nerfed!

Jaro Essa
Dahkur Forge
#6 - 2014-02-06 23:07:09 UTC
You brought rock and your enemies brought paper. Don't call for paper to be nerfed, bring scissors.
Theodoric Darkwind
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2014-02-07 04:12:12 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

Damps are powerful. They used to be even more powerful but were nerfed a bit. Recently, they were nerfed again with the overheat changes. Despite this, I still agree that damps are an extremely powerful form of ewar. However, your proposition is absolutely ridiculous!

The CFC Celestis fleet required coordinating damps on 100's of targets from 100's of ships. To pull this off effectively requires a large amount of player coordination. This does not scale well, and while you might find these fleets annoying, they are not uncounterable. Drones are a great way to counter them, and still are!

Drone assist allows ONE pilot to coordination the firepower of 100's of ships. To pull this off effectively is so simple that a toddler could do it. Frankly this scales too well, and that is why it is being nerfed!



"Target the two closest to your name and turn on damps" is not hard to coordinate.

There are only two counters to Celestii in the numbers that the CFC brings, drone assist, or sniper Eagles/Tengus.

I do agree drone assist is a stupid mechanic, but so is massed damps in the current blobfest.

Railgun snipers can kill Celestii, but at the range at which they have to engage you need huge numbers to alpha Celestii, or reps will hold.

AHACs will never get on top of Celestii, if they somehow manage to land in range they may kill a few before the Celestii pull range and warp off. Also the damps can shut down their logi making them trivial to kill.

Bombing doesn't work most of the time as defensive bubbles are pretty standard, also Celestii with an armor tank are surprisingly resiliant to bombs.

Scorps and BBs were never able to shut down the effectiveness of a large fleet to the extent that damps have. 30-40 Celestii are enough to completely negate the logi of a typical 250 man fleet. Logi are not effective if they have to carry a full midrack of Sebos (which still wont be enough), armor logi wont have any cap to rep anything, and shield logi wont have any tank.

The Celestis bonus needs to be nerfed to hell, or at least the range of damps needs to be cut by a lot.

Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2014-02-07 04:19:42 UTC
Bring ECM. Perma Jam them. Damps gone.


Or.... IDK... bring Celestii and Damp them back.

Or fit Sensor boosters.....

Or any of the many ways you can counter them. Think about it.

Wanna know why ECM was less effective?

Cause all the Logi KNEW to fit ECCM.



Have Logi fit Sebo's and you'll see that Damps are just as ineffective on logi as ECM.



Or have your other ships fit R. Sebo's.... really there are so many ways to counter them, like Everything in Eve.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2014-02-07 04:31:55 UTC
Theodoric Darkwind wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

Damps are powerful. They used to be even more powerful but were nerfed a bit. Recently, they were nerfed again with the overheat changes. Despite this, I still agree that damps are an extremely powerful form of ewar. However, your proposition is absolutely ridiculous!

The CFC Celestis fleet required coordinating damps on 100's of targets from 100's of ships. To pull this off effectively requires a large amount of player coordination. This does not scale well, and while you might find these fleets annoying, they are not uncounterable. Drones are a great way to counter them, and still are!

Drone assist allows ONE pilot to coordination the firepower of 100's of ships. To pull this off effectively is so simple that a toddler could do it. Frankly this scales too well, and that is why it is being nerfed!



"Target the two closest to your name and turn on damps" is not hard to coordinate.

There are only two counters to Celestii in the numbers that the CFC brings, drone assist, or sniper Eagles/Tengus.

I do agree drone assist is a stupid mechanic, but so is massed damps in the current blobfest.

Railgun snipers can kill Celestii, but at the range at which they have to engage you need huge numbers to alpha Celestii, or reps will hold.

AHACs will never get on top of Celestii, if they somehow manage to land in range they may kill a few before the Celestii pull range and warp off. Also the damps can shut down their logi making them trivial to kill.

Bombing doesn't work most of the time as defensive bubbles are pretty standard, also Celestii with an armor tank are surprisingly resiliant to bombs.

Scorps and BBs were never able to shut down the effectiveness of a large fleet to the extent that damps have. 30-40 Celestii are enough to completely negate the logi of a typical 250 man fleet. Logi are not effective if they have to carry a full midrack of Sebos (which still wont be enough), armor logi wont have any cap to rep anything, and shield logi wont have any tank.

The Celestis bonus needs to be nerfed to hell, or at least the range of damps needs to be cut by a lot.


Do the same back, bring your own Celestis. Problem solved, no one has reps then... they're stupid anyway.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
CW Itovuo
The Executioners
Capital Punishment.
#10 - 2014-02-07 04:58:50 UTC  |  Edited by: CW Itovuo
Theodoric Darkwind wrote:
If you are removing drone assist as a viable tactic for large fleet engagements then you must nerf the Celestis and Sensor Damps to compensate.

Drone assist was the only real defense against the massed formations of Celestii fielded by the CFC called **** You Fleet. A single Celestis could shut down two of any ship that wasn't immune to EWAR, this is all done using a hull and fit that are dirt cheap and require little in the way of SP to use effectively.

Under the current meta a Celestis is more effective in a large fleet engagement than a pre-nerf Blackbird ever was. You nerfed Blackbirds and ECM for less than what the Celestis is doing now.




I haven't experimented with new overheat mechanics, specifically, how long one can OH a SD before destruction. But the latest Ruby changes make the SD only 90% of what it once was, while overheating makes it 110% for a limited time. A further reduction would be insulting.