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Balancing Feedback: Capital Ships

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Venustas Blue
Spartan Industries
#561 - 2011-11-25 14:47:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Venustas Blue
What I would like to know is HOW SOON AFTER crucible is released will you be able to amend the change to Supers drone bay!
As I think has been said once twice, a dozen, a hundred a 126742342 times in this threat & the original rebalancing thread ETC by actual knowledgeable Pilots that have experiece in all aspects of pvp, not just the original short sight of the mainstream subcap pilot.Supers need drone bay capacity for 20x FBs & 20x Fighters.
Cannot come soon enough..........
Svennig
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#562 - 2011-11-25 15:36:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Svennig
Venustas Blue wrote:
What I would like to know is HOW SOON AFTER crucible is released will you be able to amend the change to Supers drone bay!
As I think has been said once twice, a dozen, a hundred a 126742342 times in this threat & the original rebalancing thread ETC by actual knowledgeable Pilots that have experiece in all aspects of pvp, not just the original short sight of the mainstream subcap pilot.Supers need drone bay capacity for 20x FBs & 20x Fighters.
Cannot come soon enough..........


Jesus. He's said he's going to consider it. Not that it's set-in-stone going to happen. Nor does it have a timescale. He's likely waiting to see how much effect the need to choose fighter/fb loadouts is going to have. Thats the way that it works, plan, deploy, assess, plan etc etc etc.

I don't care about whether it gets boosted to 20/20 or not. But it's fuckin hilarious all the super pilots here. "QQ, we need another ship to manage logistics of moving fighters". As if you don't have a buttload of alts for cynos, subcaps, industry, whatever the ****. If you don't, get the **** out of the super. Plus, you have to fuel it anyway, right? So you're used to moving around (or having moved around for you by your corp or alliance) fuel, XL ammo for titans + dreads (well soon anyway, I hope), drugs, stront, other drones that you might lose in the course of action, replacements for ships that you drop from you SMA for people to get back in the fight.

HTFU, christ.
Daedalus Arcova
The Scope
#563 - 2011-11-25 15:42:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Daedalus Arcova
Phunnestyle wrote:
Daedalus Arcova wrote:
CCP Tallest wrote:
Will I consider increasing the drone bay of supers so that they can hold 20 fighters and 20 fighter bombers? Yes, I will consider it after Crucible.


20/20 fighter bays would be a mistake. The size of the new bays is good, in that it forces SC pilots to balance their 'fits' for different scenarios. Are you expecting to fight large numbers of subcapitals? Full flight of fighters. Want to melt other capitals? Full flight of bombers. Not sure? Go half and half.

That element of forced choice is something that too many SC pilots have grown unfamiliar with, as they have been able to cater for all scenarios simultaneously for too long, hence the tears. But that forced choice is good. No other ship in EVE can be fit to deal with all circumstances and eventualities to maximum potential. There is always a trade-off, and so there should be for supercarriers.

So, by all means consider it, but please don't take the whines of the vocal minority of self-interested, iwinbutton bittervets as a solid argument for game balance.


You sir are a fool, if you would like to enlighten yourself, please read the last several pages. We have explained again & again why room for 20Fighter Bombers & 20 Fighters is a must, & I personally can't be bothered to take another self induced person through them, so as I said, read over the last several pages, you may notice that any arguments if they can be called arguements LOL given in place for defence of the decision not to increase the drone bay, have neither held any water at all and they have not been able to explain why this change should not be made, infact the huge majority of posts against are deemed no more proficient than being troll posts, as they are affectively only trying to pervert the course of justice. Your LOL arguement is no different.



All I can see are 20+ pages of whining, screaming, foot-stomping, and general hurf-blurf from butt-hurt SC pilots. If somebody has a good argument as to why SCs should have a 20+20 capacity, I'd like to see it.

There was ONE salient point from the Boost Supers Brigade. That being that the Nyx's 15 bonused 'secondary' fighters (i.e. fighters when you have a full flight of 20 FBs) do 87.5% more dps than the 10 unbonused fighters of the Aeon and Wyvern. That seems like a pretty good reason to reduce the Nyx's capacity to 20+12, giving it equivalent DPS to the Hel when using fighters as a secondary weapon, or even just reduce it back to 20+10, which would give the Hel something really unique and useful.
Daedalus Arcova
The Scope
#564 - 2011-11-25 15:52:53 UTC
Svennig wrote:
it's fuckin hilarious all the super pilots here. "QQ, we need another ship to manage logistics of moving fighters"


Quite. An Iteron V can carry 6 fighters. Oh! The effort!
Naughty Fox
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#565 - 2011-11-25 16:11:09 UTC
Daedalus Arcova wrote:
Svennig wrote:
it's fuckin hilarious all the super pilots here. "QQ, we need another ship to manage logistics of moving fighters"


Quite. An Iteron V can carry 6 fighters. Oh! The effort!


Your a terrible troll, I question myself why im even bothering to reply to you, only make yourself sound more ignorant than you originally sounded. +100 for 20x FBs & 20x Fighters,the change can't come soon enough.
Charles Edisson
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#566 - 2011-11-25 16:49:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Charles Edisson
Just compared the build costs of the Aeon on Sisi to TQ. now correct me if I'm wrong but it looks like CCP are really taking the ****. You have reduced the drone bay size on SC BUT you are going to make the Aeon require MORE capital drone bay components to build the thing.
FFS you cant nerf the things drone bays and at the same time make them require more of the things to build.

Eddited for other ships. So just checked the Moros. Yes CCP removed the drone parts BUT they added more parts so the price actualy went up to build them. Avatar also had additional parts added.

Yay every cap has been made slightly more expensive to make.

Jog on CCP.
Daedalus Arcova
The Scope
#567 - 2011-11-25 17:23:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Daedalus Arcova
Naughty Fox wrote:
Your a terrible troll, I question myself why im even bothering to reply to you, only make yourself sound more ignorant than you originally sounded. +100 for 20x FBs & 20x Fighters,the change can't come soon enough.


It's you're.

I'm not trolling at all. I sincerely want someone to present a reasoned argument as to why - within the context of balance and choice-driven gameplay - supercarriers should have a 20+20 fighter bay.

So far, all I've seen is lots of inchoate fury, but little in the way of constructive argument.
Sameyaa
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#568 - 2011-11-25 17:26:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Sameyaa
To sum this up, i will re-post what i posted on my alliance thread:



Do you see super pilots bitching about loosing regular drones? NO
Do you see super pilots bitching that their months of training for regular drones was a complete waste? NO
Do you see super pilots bitching that we cant be a one man army any more? NO
Do you see super pilots bitching about EHP nerf? NO
Do you see super pilots bitching that we cannot logoffski anymore? NO

We are bitching because owning a super is turning into owning a POS (in terms of logistics) which we did not sign up for when we got it. We have better **** to do than waste 20mins of our lives before every fleet refitting.

+1 for 20/20 drone bay.
Svennig
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#569 - 2011-11-25 17:30:53 UTC
Sameyaa wrote:
To sum this up, i will re-post what i posted on my alliance thread:



Do you see super pilots bitching about loosing regular drones? NO
Do you see super pilots bitching that their months of training for regular drones was a complete waste? NO
Do you see super pilots bitching that we cant be a one man army any more? NO
Do you see super pilots bitching about EHP nerf? NO
Do you see super pilots bitching that we cannot logoffski anymore? NO

We are bitching because owning a super is turning into owning a POS (in terms of logistics) which we did not sign up for when we got it. We have better **** to do than waste 20mins of our lives before every fleet refitting.


And how much time do you spend refuelling? And why dont you do both at the same time?
Daedalus Arcova
The Scope
#570 - 2011-11-25 17:31:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Daedalus Arcova
Sameyaa wrote:
We are bitching because owning a super is turning into owning a POS (in terms of logistics) which we did not sign up for when we got it. We have better **** to do than waste 20mins of our lives before every fleet refitting.


OK, that's a fair enough reason to be grumpy. But don't you think that SCs are such a powerful asset that they ought to require that much effort?

You already have to fuel it, and log it off at a POS with a dedicated holder character. Is moving a few fighters back and forth from a station really that big a deal?

Most SC pilots will likely never change their fighter complement anyway. It'll always be 20 bombers and the rest fighters, only restocking when some are lost.


EDIT: I have actually seen several SC pilots bitching about several of those other things.
Sameyaa
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#571 - 2011-11-25 17:35:26 UTC
Svennig wrote:
Sameyaa wrote:
To sum this up, i will re-post what i posted on my alliance thread:



Do you see super pilots bitching about loosing regular drones? NO
Do you see super pilots bitching that their months of training for regular drones was a complete waste? NO
Do you see super pilots bitching that we cant be a one man army any more? NO
Do you see super pilots bitching about EHP nerf? NO
Do you see super pilots bitching that we cannot logoffski anymore? NO

We are bitching because owning a super is turning into owning a POS (in terms of logistics) which we did not sign up for when we got it. We have better **** to do than waste 20mins of our lives before every fleet refitting.


And how much time do you spend refuelling? And why dont you do both at the same time?


Only refuel like once a month, all supers have spare fuel in corp hanger.
Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#572 - 2011-11-25 17:37:21 UTC
Daedalus Arcova wrote:
Naughty Fox wrote:
Your a terrible troll, I question myself why im even bothering to reply to you, only make yourself sound more ignorant than you originally sounded. +100 for 20x FBs & 20x Fighters,the change can't come soon enough.


It's you're.

I'm not trolling at all. I sincerely want someone to present a reasoned argument as to why - within the context of balance and choice-driven gameplay - supercarriers should have a 20+20 fighter bay.

So far, all I've seen is lots of inchoate fury, but little in the way of constructive argument.



Want to know what's funny? It's a "full compliment" based on a specific bonus. If the bonus is nerfed, so is the "20 drone standard."


Give them 20/20 but drop it to +1 extra fighter/bomber per level.

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.
Svennig
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#573 - 2011-11-25 17:38:59 UTC
Sameyaa wrote:
Svennig wrote:
Sameyaa wrote:
To sum this up, i will re-post what i posted on my alliance thread:



Do you see super pilots bitching about loosing regular drones? NO
Do you see super pilots bitching that their months of training for regular drones was a complete waste? NO
Do you see super pilots bitching that we cant be a one man army any more? NO
Do you see super pilots bitching about EHP nerf? NO
Do you see super pilots bitching that we cannot logoffski anymore? NO

We are bitching because owning a super is turning into owning a POS (in terms of logistics) which we did not sign up for when we got it. We have better **** to do than waste 20mins of our lives before every fleet refitting.


And how much time do you spend refuelling? And why dont you do both at the same time?


Only refuel like once a month, all supers have spare fuel in corp hanger.


So when you do, it's probably quite a large volume you move then... You see where I'm going with this?
Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#574 - 2011-11-25 17:41:55 UTC
Sameyaa wrote:
To sum this up, i will re-post what i posted on my alliance thread:



Do you see super pilots bitching about loosing regular drones? NO
Do you see super pilots bitching that their months of training for regular drones was a complete waste? NO
Do you see super pilots bitching that we cant be a one man army any more? NO
Do you see super pilots bitching about EHP nerf? NO
Do you see super pilots bitching that we cannot logoffski anymore? NO

We are bitching because owning a super is turning into owning a POS (in terms of logistics) which we did not sign up for when we got it. We have better **** to do than waste 20mins of our lives before every fleet refitting.

+1 for 20/20 drone bay.


1) yes, many bitched
2) you didn't train those drones for supers, with the exception of fighter bombers I
3) yes, many bitched
4) yes, many are
5) logoffski was a broken mechanic to begin with.


Everyone who was a competent super pilot knew this would eventually happen. Even a year ago, there was word that proliferation was getting out of hand and that a nerf was inbound.

It's hilarious to see people crying because a toy got nerfed that was clearly overpowered. Use it right and the ship is effective. Abuse it beyond what it was intended for and the nerfs will hurt.


Quote:
We have better **** to do than waste 20mins of our lives before every fleet refitting.


lol wow.

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.
Svennig
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#575 - 2011-11-25 17:43:02 UTC
Vincent Gaines wrote:
Daedalus Arcova wrote:
Naughty Fox wrote:
Your a terrible troll, I question myself why im even bothering to reply to you, only make yourself sound more ignorant than you originally sounded. +100 for 20x FBs & 20x Fighters,the change can't come soon enough.


It's you're.

I'm not trolling at all. I sincerely want someone to present a reasoned argument as to why - within the context of balance and choice-driven gameplay - supercarriers should have a 20+20 fighter bay.

So far, all I've seen is lots of inchoate fury, but little in the way of constructive argument.



Want to know what's funny? It's a "full compliment" based on a specific bonus. If the bonus is nerfed, so is the "20 drone standard."


Give them 20/20 but drop it to +1 extra fighter/bomber per level.



Dude, I'm not on high enough ground to survive the flooding that would be caused by the sheer volume of tears if this happened.

But, and as much as supers need nerfing, I'd have to be against it unless there was a commensurate increase in FB DPS. Now, if you did that together, it would be an interesting change. Same dps for supers, but now there are fewer fighter-bombers on-grid (less lag) and as the DPS is more concentrated it now becomes more viable to take them out with, say, destroyers.
Zarak1 Kenpach1
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#576 - 2011-11-25 18:02:19 UTC
HelPilot of20Years wrote:
I won't address the issue of triage in wormholes. We all know how they are used, and junior varsity ~leet pvp~ gangs use them to great effect.

The real issue at hand is supers. CCP miss a lot of things, and fail to correct them. Remember flying a dread for the first time? Then they were mothballed for months. We don't want to see that happen to a ship, especially one which has to be sold or put on a holding toon.

CCP logic: "Let's make a minmatar carrier with bonuses to repair. That will be the 'healing carrier', best for triage! We did it boys, now let's go get some beer and fish then call it a day"

Player logic: "Oh my, there sure is a lot of resistance/cap/fitting ability on this archon. This will be the new 'healing carrier', best for triage!"

Example of how the road to hell is paved with the bones and good intentions of Second Lieutenants.

Eve players let this game's developers ignore too much for too long. We're seeing an acknowledgement of that, which is a bit promising. However, make no mistake, this isn't COD. This game is more expensive regarding money, time, or both. Many players use critical thinking to solve hard-coded problems. Let's avoid the problem before it effects an entire population who may or may not have the ability to leave a broken hull.

We give CCP the benefit of the doubt every time we log into this game. Aside from minor re-skinning, shaders, updated nebulae, code fixes - one must admit that this is the clunkiest, most unintuitive UI ever made. Most people never even play 'Eve' before they quit out of boredom and frustration. Yet we carry on, because this is the closest thing to the ideal sandbox MMO that the industry sorely lacks. When the massive unsub event happened, CCP realized that we were paying attention, and diverted resources accordingly. Some changes/additions were useful and elegant. You'd have to be mentally disabled not to realize the need for a lot of these small fixes that have been mysteriously rolled out in just a couple of months. Yet it took years.

I don't have years to sit by and watch an entire class of 20bil-each ships just sit in space because of a vocal minority.

For example: these recent de-nerfs (7.5% rep bonus to hel, extra fighters) were a response to a nicely-written, respectful forum post. A single person posted, then a few agreed. Now, that's the bonus we're stuck with. Think about that for a minute. You're in an office, reading forums and come across what seems like a good fix. Call or email the guys down the hall, get the change in. Then clock out and go home.

Tell me I'm the only one who witnessed that.



You are not going to get the iwin button you are seeking. Train a new racial carrier bubba. Stop whining.

As far as carriers in wormholes your 1 line sentence says you really don't know a darn thing about them and you are just saying you do to launch yourself back into the topic of how ******** you have been and how you want CCP to give you a reason for buying the 20bil rustbucket known as the Hel.
MastahFR
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#577 - 2011-11-25 18:14:30 UTC  |  Edited by: MastahFR
CCP Tallest, can we get your feedback about the Hel been useless even after this patch ?
As per the thread for Minmatar capitals re-balance, I'm still waiting for a real boost for the Hel. A boost that could make the ship useful in a fleet.

All Hel owners are feedup with the current situation of this ship been useless in everything. The ship as the weakest tank, the same DPS as others (Wyvern, Aeon), one of the highest sig radius due to fittings and the bonus is just useless (never really used)...

I invite all Hel owner to rise their voice so CCP can acknowledge us. This might be difficult since there is usually less than 1 Hel in fleet for 40-50 Supercarrier...

If you don't plan on changing anything and with the Supercarrier nerf coming, you could be kind to allow Hel pilots to get refunded for their ships that they'll never use.

Thanks in advance.
Zarak1 Kenpach1
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#578 - 2011-11-25 18:52:46 UTC
there should be no changes made to the hel specifically. give supers a triage role so the bonus makes sense.

motherships should never have been platforms that do not have a triage role.
HelPilot of20Years
Doomheim
#579 - 2011-11-25 18:58:34 UTC
Zarak1 Kenpach1 wrote:

You are not going to get the iwin button you are seeking. Train a new racial carrier bubba. Stop whining.

... you want CCP to give you a reason for buying the 20bil rustbucket known as the Hel.



Former Wyvern pilot, triage Chimera blah blah, bubba. Shield caps are **** and everyone knows it. Now is the time to speak up, if there ever was.
Also fly an Aeon w/my main, and I know the Archon very well. I don't think your crowd's "iwin button" is any more effective an argument than a 99%er's vague red herrings. All SC pilots understand the need for a nerf, but at the same time there are years-old issues that can enter into the discussion as these sweeping changes are being pushed.

...designed for [u]one purpose and one purpose only[/u]. ”Imagine a swarm of deadly hornets pouring from the devil’s mouth. Now imagine they have autocannons.” -Unknown Hel designer
Sameyaa
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#580 - 2011-11-25 18:59:50 UTC
Svennig wrote:
Sameyaa wrote:
Svennig wrote:
Sameyaa wrote:
To sum this up, i will re-post what i posted on my alliance thread:



Do you see super pilots bitching about loosing regular drones? NO
Do you see super pilots bitching that their months of training for regular drones was a complete waste? NO
Do you see super pilots bitching that we cant be a one man army any more? NO
Do you see super pilots bitching about EHP nerf? NO
Do you see super pilots bitching that we cannot logoffski anymore? NO

We are bitching because owning a super is turning into owning a POS (in terms of logistics) which we did not sign up for when we got it. We have better **** to do than waste 20mins of our lives before every fleet refitting.


And how much time do you spend refuelling? And why dont you do both at the same time?


Only refuel like once a month, all supers have spare fuel in corp hanger.


So when you do, it's probably quite a large volume you move then... You see where I'm going with this?


Not really, when i get fueled i dont need my own alt, its done by a alliance hauler or corp hauler. In any case only a hauler is needed. takes less than 5 mins.

To refit i need to:
1) Have a useless alt sitting in my staging system that has a carrier (yes we all have free carrier alts laying around)
2) Login super (needs 30 secs)
3) Take all drones from drone bay of alt carrier, put needed fighters/fbs
4) Undock, get in fleet, warp to super
5) refit 1or2 fb/fighter at a time because for aeons/wyverns they will not have the free room to move fb/fighters in groups.
6) warp carrier back to station, refit drone bay like it was before (which in itself is annoying)
7) Logoff super, and sit at pos with an alt to make sure it disappeares without aggression.

You see where i'm going with this? does it remind you of something? maybe fueling a pos would be easier.