These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Permanently remove Soul Crushing Lag

Author
Edward Olmops
Gunboat Commando
#1 - 2014-01-29 11:35:48 UTC
Due to the recent discussions about large fleet fights and the impossibility to win the fight against lag (better hardware -> more players stream in. TiDi -> more players now even have more time to get to the fight), I thought about the problem and... well, btw, I found a solution.
Maybe a bit exotic, but judge yourself.

The basic idea is very simple:
If a system experiences to high load for the node to handle, SPAWN WORMHOLES!
Not just randomly in the system, but right there. On the grid, where there is the biggest jumble of drones and spaceships.
Needless to say, these wormholes lead to a better place, somewhere on a reinforced node, that has no load at all.
Players will move through the wormholes, distributing the load between 2 nodes.
Problem solved, you're welcome. :-D

More details:
The wormholes are no regular wormholes. They do no lead to any known W-space systems, but most likely to empty space with nothing in it. There will be no way out of these systems, so this is no easy way for ships to escape.
It's more like "the second floor" of the battlefield. They literally expand battlefield in the forth dimension if the ground floor becomes too crowded.
There might be more than one wormhole of this type on a given grid, but all should lead to the same "second floor" which means that ships that disappeared in the original system can continue to fight on the other side.
Going in in one hole and reappearing from another, dodging the fire from ships on the outside.
The wormholes would be quite short-lived. If they close, everything on the inside would be forcefully ejected in the same space where the wormhole would have been.
That means one cannot hide inside forever.
This idea scales nicely: Should the load ever get too high for 2 nodes, there could be a "third floor" and so on.

The lore aspect:
Why would there suddenly wormholes?

Well. Either too many spaceships with all their warp drives an lasers and scrambling and stuff massively disrupt the very fabric of timespace and then strange things happen.

Or this could be some sort of new device, putting the responsibility into the hands of players.
Think of a dying titan using an emergency jump command and leaving behind a short-lived wormhole.
(if this was restricted to ships with jump drives, the solution would not work for battles without capitals)

Tactical implications:
Large battles would become very large, they would become more complex as well. Depending on how exactly this is fleshed out, fleets could use the new possibilities to their advantage and do hilarious things.
If it was a device, it could be used to set up ambushes/login traps as well.
The place behind a wormhole might have a synchronized TiDi or the "natural" TiDi of the new node (meaning time would run faster on the inside - would allow faster subfights or emergency repairs)
The meta in fleet fights would ofc change, because ships would be able to dodge enemy fire through wormholes, but that does not need to be a bad thing. :-)

Ok, that is basically it. Inherently no more upper limit for engagement sizes, more complex battlefields.
Plenty of small details left open, plenty of options how to do these, but what do you think?

Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#2 - 2014-01-29 11:42:38 UTC
Changing node (IE jumping out) puts a lot of load on a server. You want to add a lot more load to an already overloaded server.


Also, why would anyone bother? If the fight is over something on the first grid, why leave it?
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#3 - 2014-01-29 11:44:29 UTC
How are alliances going to launch ambushes from these wormholes if they appear in the middle of battle?
Edward Olmops
Gunboat Commando
#4 - 2014-01-29 11:48:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Edward Olmops
Danika Princip wrote:

Also, why would anyone bother? If the fight is over something on the first grid, why leave it?


Because you are primary. :-D

Or because your primary was almost in structure and vanished through that wormhole.
Edward Olmops
Gunboat Commando
#5 - 2014-01-29 11:52:52 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
How are alliances going to launch ambushes from these wormholes if they appear in the middle of battle?


If these spawn naturally, ofc this would not be feasible for ambushes.

But if it was a jump-me-to-my-pocket-universe device (activate module-> create WH), THEN it could (as a side effect) be used for ambushes.
Edward Olmops
Gunboat Commando
#6 - 2014-01-29 11:58:59 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Changing node (IE jumping out) puts a lot of load on a server. You want to add a lot more load to an already overloaded server.


To address this:

Well, you need to do SOMETHING.
Currently, more people are always allowed to jump in unless there is a population cap.
Compare jumping in to jumping out:
Someone jumps in - all others have to be notified PLUS there will be one more ship firing, deploying dornes and what not. The load momentarily becomes higher AND there will be more load in the future.
Someone leaves system - this is more a one-time investment. A bit of load to notify all others, but less load in the future as there is one less ship and fewer drones.

The new WHs should have polarization timers though, already after the first jump. Just to prevent ships to go to and fro too rapidly.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#7 - 2014-01-29 12:00:47 UTC
Edward Olmops wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
Changing node (IE jumping out) puts a lot of load on a server. You want to add a lot more load to an already overloaded server.


Also, why would anyone bother? If the fight is over something on the first grid, why leave it?


Because you are primary. :-D




But considering that it's going to take you half an hour to jump out, and you're adding a ton of load to the server doing it, you're going to be dead before you make it out anyway.

Unless you're a super, which can't use wormholes.
Edward Olmops
Gunboat Commando
#8 - 2014-01-29 12:12:24 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:

But considering that it's going to take you half an hour to jump out, and you're adding a ton of load to the server doing it, you're going to be dead before you make it out anyway.


The point is that this happens BEFORE everything takes half an hour.
If you are dying, everything is fine since that is also "leaving the system".
But people don't seem to die fast enough to be a serious relief for the servers in those fights.

Danika Princip wrote:

Unless you're a super, which can't use wormholes.


When I said maybe ships use emergency jumps or special devices, I implied that capitals and also supers would be able to use these WHs (unlike normal WHs).
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2014-01-29 12:30:37 UTC
I will like this idea if you also solve Soul Crushing PVE.

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal

Edward Olmops
Gunboat Commando
#10 - 2014-01-29 12:43:37 UTC
Kenrailae wrote:
I will like this idea if you also solve Soul Crushing PVE.


Oh. That one is easy, too.
We just need Small Mobile deployable Sentry Guns. They shoot stuff and store bounties inside.
Put them in belts, maybe together with Mobile Tractor Units. They will happily shoot NPCs all day all night and collect stuff while you will be having all the PvP fun you like defending them.

Now, can I get the like?
Kenrailae
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2014-01-29 12:55:55 UTC
Edward Olmops wrote:
Kenrailae wrote:
I will like this idea if you also solve Soul Crushing PVE.


Oh. That one is easy, too.
We just need Small Mobile deployable Sentry Guns. They shoot stuff and store bounties inside.
Put them in belts, maybe together with Mobile Tractor Units. They will happily shoot NPCs all day all night and collect stuff while you will be having all the PvP fun you like defending them.

Now, can I get the like?



That's even worse than the existing PVE methods.... :(

The Law is a point of View

The NPE IS a big deal

Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#12 - 2014-01-29 22:30:01 UTC
Edward Olmops wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:

But considering that it's going to take you half an hour to jump out, and you're adding a ton of load to the server doing it, you're going to be dead before you make it out anyway.


The point is that this happens BEFORE everything takes half an hour.
If you are dying, everything is fine since that is also "leaving the system".
But people don't seem to die fast enough to be a serious relief for the servers in those fights.

Danika Princip wrote:

Unless you're a super, which can't use wormholes.


When I said maybe ships use emergency jumps or special devices, I implied that capitals and also supers would be able to use these WHs (unlike normal WHs).



So there's absolutely no reason, at all, for anyone to go through them in the first place then...
Johnson Dragoon
Doomheim
#13 - 2014-01-29 23:16:50 UTC
OP, I have a question.

Do you know how lag even works? I will assume not.

Lag, or internet latency: is the time it takes for a single packet to travel to a server, and then for it come back to the client computer. Normally people call call when call lag, it takes an non-normal amount of time for the packets to perform a round trip.

internet latency is always measured in milliseconds which is 1/1,000 of a second so if you have a ping of 1000 or higher, that means it takes one second for a packet to get, then a response packet to be received, what this means in a FPS point of view is your reaction time will always takes one second(plus) longer ontop of your normal human reaction time.

Lag however can be created from a number of different problems.

The major problem actually involves the client's connection. Which is where the joke comes from stop downloading porn. Upload and download speed caps are shared, that means if you are running other programs in the background that are downloading and uploading. Like lets say other eve clients, this creates lag for you, as your packets are stuck in a "que" in attempting to leave and come in.

The major problem is lag created from the server internet. This is less common for big MMO companies, but more common for those that want to host servers on machines they built themselves. They have a nice server machine, however they don't have a nice connection, and if you have 16+ people connecting to that one server at a time, it does a number on one's internet capacity.

Now, we get more into EVE online's problem, which is a problem with all MMO companies. Server hardware. The problem we are having is that there are so many people connecting to the same node/server/shard that it overwhelms the server thinking capacity.

Your solution doesn't solve the node problem, just cause you create a wormhole doesn't mean you get rid of the capacity of the node. So now instead of having condense fight on one grid, you create many many more grids for the server to keep track of, and thus more node lag. :(
Edward Olmops
Gunboat Commando
#14 - 2014-01-30 08:40:47 UTC
Johnson Dragoon wrote:

The major problem is lag created from the server internet. This is less common for big MMO companies, but more common for those that want to host servers on machines they built themselves. They have a nice server machine, however they don't have a nice connection, and if you have 16+ people connecting to that one server at a time, it does a number on one's internet capacity.

Now, we get more into EVE online's problem, which is a problem with all MMO companies. Server hardware. The problem we are having is that there are so many people connecting to the same node/server/shard that it overwhelms the server thinking capacity.

Your solution doesn't solve the node problem, just cause you create a wormhole doesn't mean you get rid of the capacity of the node. So now instead of having condense fight on one grid, you create many many more grids for the server to keep track of, and thus more node lag. :(


Erm. No.
What we are discussing is lag caused by a server node not able to process all tasks assigned to it in time, because the load on this node is simply too high.
The wormhole idea is to distribute the load between more nodes. Really SIMPLE. New is only how to do this without say artificially removing ships from space and placing them in a mirror universe or stuff like that which would totally break the ingame physics. Ok, the idea also introduces new physics, but in a way that seems plausible to me and could actually make fights more interesting.

Your idea cannot be right, because if the client side internet connection or the server connection would be the problem, how could the cluster ever handle 50000 players online that are NOT in the same system?
(answer: it could never. The total load is not the problem, but the concentration on just one node. See also various Devblogs on that topic).
Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2014-01-30 11:33:00 UTC
The only way to counter this (until the code is amended) is to encourage players to spread the combat across multiple systems (nodes), for which there has to be some incentive to do so.

Increasing the power of the servers just leads to players warping more ships in and consuming the extra resources.
Edward Olmops
Gunboat Commando
#16 - 2014-01-30 11:43:32 UTC
That is exactly what the OP is about.
Players WILL spread the combat across multiple systems if you spawn wormholes next to them in the middle of the fight.
And I don'T think it needs extra incentives.

Anyone who has ever fought next to a gate or next to a wormhole will tell you that much of this evolves around trying to PREVENT people from going through that gate/hole!
And nevertheless ships are doing it anyway all the time.

-You are being primaried -> jump through the hole.
-Your enemy just jumped? -> jump through the hole!!!!
-Your enemy MAY jump anytime soon? -> jump through the hole with part of your fleet and wait for him.
-Somebody said jump?!?!? -> JUMP!!!! JUMP!!!
Johnson Dragoon
Doomheim
#17 - 2014-01-30 11:53:46 UTC
Edward Olmops wrote:
That is exactly what the OP is about.
Players WILL spread the combat across multiple systems if you spawn wormholes next to them in the middle of the fight.
And I don'T think it needs extra incentives.

Anyone who has ever fought next to a gate or next to a wormhole will tell you that much of this evolves around trying to PREVENT people from going through that gate/hole!
And nevertheless ships are doing it anyway all the time.

-You are being primaried -> jump through the hole.
-Your enemy just jumped? -> jump through the hole!!!!
-Your enemy MAY jump anytime soon? -> jump through the hole with part of your fleet and wait for him.
-Somebody said jump?!?!? -> JUMP!!!! JUMP!!!


Creating wormholes in a system to separate people in the system does not separate the node load you just make more ******* work from the node to do cause now it needs to not only keep track of all the players, but each wormhole that is created. You think making wormholes magically makes new nodes? :|
Gawain Edmond
Khanid Bureau of Industry
#18 - 2014-01-30 12:00:27 UTC
or people could just send ccp a message whenever they're planning to go stomp on someone hard enough to need the node reinforced and where they plan to do the stomping so ccp can get the node reinforced before the fighting happens it's not like it isn't all planned anyway
Seranova Farreach
Biomass Negative
#19 - 2014-01-30 13:44:16 UTC
STOP soul crushing lag? Stop the Goddamn Blobfests then!

[u]___________________ http://i.imgur.com/d9Ee2ik.jpg[/u]

Corraidhin Farsaidh
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2014-01-30 14:04:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Corraidhin Farsaidh
Edward Olmops wrote:
That is exactly what the OP is about.
Players WILL spread the combat across multiple systems if you spawn wormholes next to them in the middle of the fight.
And I don'T think it needs extra incentives.

Anyone who has ever fought next to a gate or next to a wormhole will tell you that much of this evolves around trying to PREVENT people from going through that gate/hole!
And nevertheless ships are doing it anyway all the time.

-You are being primaried -> jump through the hole.
-Your enemy just jumped? -> jump through the hole!!!!
-Your enemy MAY jump anytime soon? -> jump through the hole with part of your fleet and wait for him.
-Somebody said jump?!?!? -> JUMP!!!! JUMP!!!


I'm not sure it would work this way from others comments and from knowing about about servers. If a server is on its knees asking it to then generate and manage more work to get out of the mess will just kill it. The only thing you can do is stop the server reaching the 'on it's knees' point int he first place. Unfortunately that means changing player tactics somehow, and I prefer that there be incentives to do so rather than a giant DoomNerf weapon being deployed by CCP.

Currently tactics at this scale seem akin to phalanx warfare, hold your shield wall and have bigger spears then nobody can touch you. This mentality needs to be changed via gameplay and combat spread out over multiple nodes *before* any of them reach saturation point.