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Dev blog: More Deployables from Super Friends

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Muffet McStrudel
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1661 - 2014-01-20 16:47:52 UTC
Tahnil wrote:
They are not obliged to ask for permission to add something to their game. That being said, the announcement isn‘t very specific, feature-wise. So there still seems to be plenty of room for changes to the way it operates.

Not releasing the module seems to be no option, though.



By all means, you are correct, they don't have to ask. However, it's pretty short-sighted of them to think players can't vote with their subs. I mean it's not like there aren't any other MMO's to play these days. Generally speaking, not giving your customers what they want results in a lack of customers.

When my customers ask me for something in RL, I generally try to oblige by forming a win-win deal. This isn't a win-win deal. Let CCP find out the hard way again. Fine with me.
Zircon Dasher
#1662 - 2014-01-20 17:02:00 UTC
Muffet McStrudel wrote:

No CCP is nerfing the bounty. I don't recall alliances asking for this asinine structure, just less fleet lag.

I will shoot them because strategically there is nothing else to do with them. If one goes up and it remains unmolested it simply provides a target for enemies to warp to and encourages them to hang around my space and steal. And if I'm really lucky, maybe I'll get my ratting ship caught in the warp bubble while trying to collect my tags that I'll need to burn time lugging to empire, where maybe I'll get lucky twice and get podded along the way.

You really aren't thinking this through, are you? How about this - I'll trade you the ESS and go for it if small gang pvp gives up cloaking ships and hot drops. Hmmmmm, wonder what the odds of them doing that are?


CCP is also providing a mechanism to ignore the nerf. If your alliance does not allow you to ignore the nerf, then your alliance is actively nerfing your income.

So you will shoot them even though you don't have to, but complain about more structure grinds. Got it.

Why would you collect tags unless your 'stealing'(lol) them? If you are 'stealing' why would you use a ratting ship?

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.
Tahnil
Gunboat Commando
#1663 - 2014-01-20 17:05:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Tahnil
Muffet McStrudel wrote:
And if I'm really lucky, maybe I'll get my ratting ship caught in the warp bubble while trying to collect my tags that I'll need to burn time lugging to empire, where maybe I'll get lucky twice and get podded along the way.

You really aren't thinking this through, are you?


So, after 84 pages in this discussion, you still didn‘t realize, that the ratters DON‘T have to collect any tags? If somebody pushes the SHARE button, then all ratters get an ISK transfer directly to their wallet, proportionally to the bounties they collected since the last share event in the system, while the module was active.

Quote:
Generally speaking, not giving your customers what they want results in a lack of customers.


That‘s right. But nullsec alliances are only one part of CCP customers, and they have to see the big picture, such as „in which direction do we want to develop this game“.
Fix Sov
#1664 - 2014-01-20 17:10:18 UTC
So what's the direction this useless module is supposed to be taking "this game"?

The current sov system is too heavily reliant on the defender saving systems by stuffing as many people as possible into the system for the final timer, instead of incentivizing attacking (and defending) multiple systems at the same time by splitting their forces into multiple fleets and using actual intelligence/strategy. This must change.
seth Hendar
I love you miners
#1665 - 2014-01-20 17:10:34 UTC
Tahnil wrote:
Muffet McStrudel wrote:
And if I'm really lucky, maybe I'll get my ratting ship caught in the warp bubble while trying to collect my tags that I'll need to burn time lugging to empire, where maybe I'll get lucky twice and get podded along the way.

You really aren't thinking this through, are you?


So, after 84 pages in this discussion, you still didn‘t realize, that the ratters DON‘T have to collect any tags? If somebody pushes the SHARE button, then all ratters get an ISK transfer directly to their wallet, proportionally to the bounties they collected since the last share event in the system, while the module was active.

Quote:
Generally speaking, not giving your customers what they want results in a lack of customers.


That‘s right. But nullsec alliances are only one part of CCP customers, and they have to see the big picture, such as „in which direction do we want to develop this game“.

one thing is pretty clear about CCP's big picture:

the null sec is mostly empty, and they want it even more empty
Muffet McStrudel
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1666 - 2014-01-20 17:17:38 UTC
Zircon Dasher wrote:
Muffet McStrudel wrote:

No CCP is nerfing the bounty. I don't recall alliances asking for this asinine structure, just less fleet lag.

I will shoot them because strategically there is nothing else to do with them. If one goes up and it remains unmolested it simply provides a target for enemies to warp to and encourages them to hang around my space and steal. And if I'm really lucky, maybe I'll get my ratting ship caught in the warp bubble while trying to collect my tags that I'll need to burn time lugging to empire, where maybe I'll get lucky twice and get podded along the way.

You really aren't thinking this through, are you? How about this - I'll trade you the ESS and go for it if small gang pvp gives up cloaking ships and hot drops. Hmmmmm, wonder what the odds of them doing that are?


CCP is also providing a mechanism to ignore the nerf. If your alliance does not allow you to ignore the nerf, then your alliance is actively nerfing your income.

So you will shoot them even though you don't have to, but complain about more structure grinds. Got it.

Why would you collect tags unless your 'stealing'(lol) them? If you are 'stealing' why would you use a ratting ship?


NO, CCP is the one nerfing the income. My alliance doesn't want these and didn't ask for them. Was there some alliance somewhere complaining that they were making too much isk in null? I guess I missed that post. By design, the only option is to KOS these regardless of who deploys them.

Basically CCP is saying put these ESS up and guard them or receive a 5% nerf to income, oh, and by the way, there's no real reason to put them up because they will attract more enemies to your quiet ratting space, the rewards are garbage because it takes too long to pay for itself, any day old alt can take from them, and you can't really defend them. We also stuck some warp bubbles around them, just to make you a juicy pre-scrammed target for the small gangs in the hopes to make null sec even worse. And if that wasn't enough to convince you about how useful and great they are, we even want you to risk taking these to empire to get any gain from them.

You'd have to be a moron to think any alliance will deploy these or allow them to be deployed in their current state.
Muffet McStrudel
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1667 - 2014-01-20 17:30:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Muffet McStrudel
Tahnil wrote:
Muffet McStrudel wrote:
And if I'm really lucky, maybe I'll get my ratting ship caught in the warp bubble while trying to collect my tags that I'll need to burn time lugging to empire, where maybe I'll get lucky twice and get podded along the way.

You really aren't thinking this through, are you?


So, after 84 pages in this discussion, you still didn‘t realize, that the ratters DON‘T have to collect any tags? If somebody pushes the SHARE button, then all ratters get an ISK transfer directly to their wallet, proportionally to the bounties they collected since the last share event in the system, while the module was active.

Quote:
Generally speaking, not giving your customers what they want results in a lack of customers.


That‘s right. But nullsec alliances are only one part of CCP customers, and they have to see the big picture, such as „in which direction do we want to develop this game“.


I hate to break it to you but you are only a very small albeit VOCAL minority pushing for this thing. Well organized alliances run EVE regardless if the DEV's want it or not. The major warring factions agree not to want the ESS. A large majority of subscribers have mains or alts in at least one alliance. Alliances really gain nothing by deploying the ESS in it's current form.

If the payout was immediate, say +25%-%50 of ratting income in the system, it doesn't have a bubble around it, and there is no reason to interact with it and empire in any way, then MAAAAAYBE there is a reason to cheer for this thing. All I see with it now is a reason to encourage a day old alt or small roving gang to steal isk from it while it nerfs the bounties to boot. And hey, what person trying to rat for isk doesn't need that, right? I mean who wouldn't want yet another reason to entice someone in a PVP fit to come ruin your PVE day?

This really isn't that hard guys.
Tahnil
Gunboat Commando
#1668 - 2014-01-20 17:32:54 UTC
Fix Sov wrote:
So what's the direction this useless module is supposed to be taking "this game"?


Farms and fields. I hope CCP was somewhat prepared for the resistance by nullbears once it became more than an empty slogan :-P
Muffet McStrudel
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1669 - 2014-01-20 17:36:35 UTC
Tahnil wrote:
Fix Sov wrote:
So what's the direction this useless module is supposed to be taking "this game"?


Farms and fields. I hope CCP was somewhat prepared for the resistance by nullbears once it became more than an empty slogan :-P



lol - we'll see how prepared CCP is when subs start dropping off.

Here's a few more empty slogans:

- What is your definition of epic combat? Is it fleets of hundreds clashing in battle? Is it war for control of entire constellations?


- Does high risk PvP get your blood racing? 1000+ ship fleet battles - hundreds of ship types - thousands of ship module options

lol
Rekkr Nordgard
Steelforge Heavy Industries
#1670 - 2014-01-20 17:38:35 UTC
Tahnil wrote:
Fix Sov wrote:
So what's the direction this useless module is supposed to be taking "this game"?


Farms and fields. I hope CCP was somewhat prepared for the resistance by nullbears once it became more than an empty slogan :-P



If CCP thinks that when we said that we wanted farms and fields that we meant we wanted nullsec line members' already tedious income nerfed, then we need to have a talk about what "farms and fields" actually means.
Tahnil
Gunboat Commando
#1671 - 2014-01-20 17:38:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Tahnil
Muffet McStrudel wrote:
Tahnil wrote:
Muffet McStrudel wrote:
And if I'm really lucky, maybe I'll get my ratting ship caught in the warp bubble while trying to collect my tags that I'll need to burn time lugging to empire, where maybe I'll get lucky twice and get podded along the way.

You really aren't thinking this through, are you?


So, after 84 pages in this discussion, you still didn‘t realize, that the ratters DON‘T have to collect any tags? If somebody pushes the SHARE button, then all ratters get an ISK transfer directly to their wallet, proportionally to the bounties they collected since the last share event in the system, while the module was active.

Quote:
Generally speaking, not giving your customers what they want results in a lack of customers.


That‘s right. But nullsec alliances are only one part of CCP customers, and they have to see the big picture, such as „in which direction do we want to develop this game“.


I hate to break it to you but you are only a very small albeit VOCAL minority pushing for this thing. Well organized alliances run EVE regardless if the DEV's want it or not. The major warring factions agree not to want the ESS. A large majority of subscribers have mains or alts in at least one alliance. Alliances really gain nothing by deploying the ESS in it's current form.

If the payout was immediate, say +25%-%50 of ratting income in the system, it doesn't have a bubble around it, and there is no reason to interact with it and empire in any way, then MAAAAAYBE there is a reason to cheer for this thing. All I see with it now is a reason to encourage a day old alt or small roving gang to steal isk from it while it nerfs the bounties to boot. And hey, what person trying to rat for isk doesn't need that, right? I mean who wouldn't want yet another reason to entice someone in a PVP fit to come ruin your PVE day?

This really isn't that hard guys.


Then by all means don't use it. But don't whine and ***** about it as well. If the module isn't used at all, CCP will have to revisit it in spring. And if you're concerned about your income, then either use it or do one more site a week.

If you see potential in the idea behind it, suggest some improvements. Nuff said.
Rekkr Nordgard
Steelforge Heavy Industries
#1672 - 2014-01-20 17:40:36 UTC
Tahnil wrote:
Then by all means don't use it. But don't whine and ***** about it as well. If the module isn't used at all, CCP will have to revisit it in spring. And if you're concerned about your income, then either use it or do one more site a week.


Just like CCP is going to fix Sov, POSes, corp roles, and lag? lol, please.

Tahnil wrote:
If you see potential in the idea behind it, suggest spme improvements. Nuff said.


There have been 80+ pages of suggestions, all of which have been ignored by CCP.
Muffet McStrudel
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1673 - 2014-01-20 17:50:01 UTC
Tahnil wrote:


Then by all means don't use it. But don't whine and ***** about it as well. If the module isn't used at all, CCP will have to revisit it in spring. And if you're concerned about your income, then either use it or do one more site a week.

If you see potential in the idea behind it, suggest some improvements. Nuff said.


Improvements were suggested. Many times. CCP doesn't seem to have any interests to entertain them.

You want fights in 0.0? Get rid of afk cloakers and cloaking hot drops as well as uncatchable interceptors and the whining pvpers will get some fights. Allow PVP fits to be able to rat more effectively and more fights will come. But nope, that isn't what the gankers like you want, they simply want some free isk while they pvp with easy targets.

They'd rather cry about how everyone just docks up when local spikes and they shouldn't have to adjust their tactics. Well boo fricken hoo. Enjoy watching people dock up and shoot your ESS modules after you leave now, because that's what's going to happen.
Tahnil
Gunboat Commando
#1674 - 2014-01-20 17:50:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Tahnil
Quote:
There have been 80+ pages of suggestions, all of which have been ignored by CCP.

No they haven't.
Fix Sov
#1675 - 2014-01-20 17:54:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Fix Sov
Tahnil wrote:
If the module isn't used at all, CCP will have to revisit it in spring.

That never happens.

Tahnil wrote:
If you see potential in the idea behind it, suggest some improvements. Nuff said.

We have, but some people don't seem to listen.

The current sov system is too heavily reliant on the defender saving systems by stuffing as many people as possible into the system for the final timer, instead of incentivizing attacking (and defending) multiple systems at the same time by splitting their forces into multiple fleets and using actual intelligence/strategy. This must change.
Muffet McStrudel
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1676 - 2014-01-20 17:55:17 UTC
Tahnil wrote:
Quote:
There have been 80+ pages of suggestions, all of which have been ignored by CCP.

No they haven't.


That remains to be seen until after the patch. Based off the present hearsay and innuendo though, there's really no reason for an alliance to say "yeah!" to ESS at this time.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1677 - 2014-01-20 18:28:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Tahnil wrote:
Fix Sov wrote:
So what's the direction this useless module is supposed to be taking "this game"?

Farms and fields.
This isn't farms and fields, though. Farms and fields is about being able to grow your own little patch of land, but having to keep the wildlife from trampling all over it. Replacing the fertile earth on the farm with sand and giving players fences that suck up any remaining water (not to mention attracting wildlife rather than keep it out) doesn't do that.

This is more like wheel of pain — a pointless toil in a wasteland that grows increasingly depopulated and rarely visited as time goes by.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#1678 - 2014-01-20 19:01:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Gizznitt Malikite
Tippia wrote:
Tahnil wrote:
Fix Sov wrote:
So what's the direction this useless module is supposed to be taking "this game"?

Farms and fields.
This isn't farms and fields, though. Farms and fields is about being able to grow your own little patch of land, but having to keep the wildlife from trampling all over it. Replacing the fertile earth on the farm with sand and giving players fences that suck up any remaining water (not to mention attracting wildlife rather than keep it out) doesn't do that.

This is more like wheel of pain — a pointless toil in a wasteland that grows increasingly depopulated and rarely visited as time goes by.


Normally you make good posts tippia.. but this is just bullshit garbage.

The ESS is essentially fertilizer.. it has the potential to increase your crop yield while also attracting bugs.

It absolutely qualifies as a Farms & Fields device, and no bullshit analogy you pull out of your ass will change that. What you may honestly debate is the utility of the device, and whether the risks outweigh the rewards.
Fix Sov
#1679 - 2014-01-20 19:05:23 UTC
How does it qualify as farms and fields?

The current sov system is too heavily reliant on the defender saving systems by stuffing as many people as possible into the system for the final timer, instead of incentivizing attacking (and defending) multiple systems at the same time by splitting their forces into multiple fleets and using actual intelligence/strategy. This must change.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#1680 - 2014-01-20 19:12:33 UTC
Fix Sov wrote:
How does it qualify as farms and fields?


The Farms & Fields concept centered on small-scale infrastructure that could potentially increase the productivity of a system while being susceptible to small-gang raiding.

Fact 1: This device, if successfully utilized, increases the ratting yield of a system.
Fact 2: This device is susceptible to raiding by a small gang.

Hence, it is a Farms and Fields Device.