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Dev blog: More Deployables from Super Friends

First post First post First post
Author
Fix Sov
#1681 - 2014-01-20 19:15:40 UTC
The yield it increases a system with is negligible, and it's raidable by everyone, including blues, to the point where nobody'll deploy it because it's utter ****.

If that's really what CCP's idea of "farms and fields" is, and siphons + ESS seems to be indikating that yes, it is indeed their idea of "farms and fields", then they should just drop the whole idea of "farms and fields" now and never bring it up ever again, because they're absolute **** at it.

The current sov system is too heavily reliant on the defender saving systems by stuffing as many people as possible into the system for the final timer, instead of incentivizing attacking (and defending) multiple systems at the same time by splitting their forces into multiple fleets and using actual intelligence/strategy. This must change.

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#1682 - 2014-01-20 19:30:47 UTC
Fix Sov wrote:
The yield it increases a system with is negligible, and it's raidable by everyone, including blues, to the point where nobody'll deploy it because it's utter ****.

If that's really what CCP's idea of "farms and fields" is, and siphons + ESS seems to be indikating that yes, it is indeed their idea of "farms and fields", then they should just drop the whole idea of "farms and fields" now and never bring it up ever again, because they're absolute **** at it.


Well, from the sounds of it, CCP is hesitant about having too big of a yield increase, since it is altering the yield of one of the largest isk faucets in the game.

And guess what, the whole idea of the farms & fields was that it would be raidable by everyone, including blues.

It is devices like this that I personally want to see implemented in the game. Now, I want them to be worthwhile to use, and capable of being defended, but IMO, that simply requires tweaking this device.
Fix Sov
#1683 - 2014-01-20 19:34:07 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Well, from the sounds of it, CCP is hesitant about having too big of a yield increase, since it is altering the yield of one of the largest isk faucets in the game.

Solution: make it suck more if you don't deploy it, so there's an actual reason for deploying it and defending it
What CCP did: make it suck more to deploy it, with a chance that you won't get robbed by blues ... i.e. nobody deploys it.

Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
And guess what, the whole idea of the farms & fields was that it would be raidable by everyone, including blues.

At the press of a single button? No, that's **** gameplay.

Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
It is devices like this that I personally want to see implemented in the game. Now, I want them to be worthwhile to use, and capable of being defended, but IMO, that simply requires tweaking this device.

It requires more than just "tweaking".

The current sov system is too heavily reliant on the defender saving systems by stuffing as many people as possible into the system for the final timer, instead of incentivizing attacking (and defending) multiple systems at the same time by splitting their forces into multiple fleets and using actual intelligence/strategy. This must change.

Muffet McStrudel
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1684 - 2014-01-20 19:34:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Muffet McStrudel
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:


Normally you make good posts tippia.. but this is just bullshit garbage.

The ESS is essentially fertilizer.. it has the potential to increase your crop yield while also attracting bugs.

It absolutely qualifies as a Farms & Fields device, and no bullshit analogy you pull out of your ass will change that. What you may honestly debate is the utility of the device, and whether the risks outweigh the rewards.


Oh the ESS is fertilizer allright ...

That's about the only part of your post you got right.

This thread reeks of nothing more than the desperation of pvper's that want free isk to gank in enemy territory in the guise of "this will help pvp". Sorry, but your small gang JUST ISN'T REALLY THAT THREATENING TO MAJOR ALLIANCE SPACE and ALLIANCES AREN'T INTERESTED IN EVEN TAKING THE RISK TO PAY YOU TO PVP IN THEIR SPACE. Why would they be? AND THAT'S ALL THE ESS WILL DO AND EXACTLY WHY IT WILL GET BANNED AND KOS.

You are trying to make your gang a round peg when it's a square. Small gangs can never really be a threat to a major alliance, unless they are united. Hey, there's a tactic and concept for you. You guys can organize a conglomerrate of small gangs working together and try and threaten big alliance space. Oh, that takes work. Sorry, my bad. This is all about making things easy for gankers, my apologies. You shouldn't have to work for anything.

Where small gangs work: Low-Sec, where they can gank anything moving through a gate; at alliance JB's or gate chokepoints where they can force a fight
Where they don't: Trying to take sov; trying to force locals to fight when they have POS or hold stations

I would add that you are the one that chooses whether to be in a small gang or a large alliance. Both have advantages and limitations. If you cannot do what you want, then perhaps you should reconsider your tactics.
Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#1685 - 2014-01-20 19:52:02 UTC
No iteration on this module?

The Tears Must Flow

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#1686 - 2014-01-20 20:05:28 UTC
Muffet McStrudel wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:


Normally you make good posts tippia.. but this is just bullshit garbage.

The ESS is essentially fertilizer.. it has the potential to increase your crop yield while also attracting bugs.

It absolutely qualifies as a Farms & Fields device, and no bullshit analogy you pull out of your ass will change that. What you may honestly debate is the utility of the device, and whether the risks outweigh the rewards.


Oh the ESS is fertilizer allright ...

That's about the only part of your post you got right.

This thread reeks of nothing more than the desperation of pvper's that want free isk to gank in enemy territory in the guise of "this will help pvp". Sorry, but your small gang JUST ISN'T REALLY THAT THREATENING TO MAJOR ALLIANCE SPACE and ALLIANCES AREN'T INTERESTED IN EVEN TAKING THE RISK TO PAY YOU TO PVP IN THEIR SPACE. Why would they be? AND THAT'S ALL THE ESS WILL DO AND EXACTLY WHY IT WILL GET BANNED AND KOS.

You are trying to make your gang a round peg when it's a square. Small gangs can never really be a threat to a major alliance, unless they are united. Hey, there's a tactic and concept for you. You guys can organize a conglomerrate of small gangs working together and try and threaten big alliance space. Oh, that takes work. Sorry, my bad. This is all about making things easy for gankers, my apologies. You shouldn't have to work for anything.

Where small gangs work: Low-Sec, where they can gank anything moving through a gate; at alliance JB's or gate chokepoints where they can force a fight
Where they don't: Trying to take sov; trying to force locals to fight when they have POS or hold stations

I would add that you are the one that chooses whether to be in a small gang or a large alliance. Both have advantages and limitations. If you cannot do what you want, then perhaps you should reconsider your tactics.


There are two aspects to owning territory:
1.) Defending it from outsiders.
2.) Defending it from within.

Currently, the Sov mechanics are all about defending space from Outside territorial disputes. That's fine and good. Unfortunately, once you own the space, everything you invest into it (i.e. its infrastructure like POS's, IHUB upgrades, POCOs, and stations) are all large gang targets. There is nothing in the current design that is small gang oriented, and this is what should change. I totally understand why you don't want to have vulnerable infrastructure. We all know you hate the concept of defending space, and prefer to just get safe and simply waiting for the raiders to move on, but that is a terrible void for game conflict and content.

Siphons are sort-of small gang targets, but unfortunately the are located within POS weapon range, which eliminates any & all small gang conflict. The ESS is the first truly small gang farms and fields device that CCP is implementing, and if you don't think you can handle the risks deploying it entails, then don't. But give everyone the choice to make that decision for themselves!
Fix Sov
#1687 - 2014-01-20 20:09:59 UTC
Um. Siphons have a fairly low EHP which you can grind through solo in no-time. Them not being on the POS grid wouldn't change a thing.

The current sov system is too heavily reliant on the defender saving systems by stuffing as many people as possible into the system for the final timer, instead of incentivizing attacking (and defending) multiple systems at the same time by splitting their forces into multiple fleets and using actual intelligence/strategy. This must change.

Kismeteer
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1688 - 2014-01-20 20:10:25 UTC
So, are our opinions being considered at all? Or is CCP just pushing forward with another mechanic that won't be used much in a year's time, and will fall into disuse entirely like so many others?
Fix Sov
#1689 - 2014-01-20 20:12:46 UTC
My magic 8-ball is saying "yes".

The current sov system is too heavily reliant on the defender saving systems by stuffing as many people as possible into the system for the final timer, instead of incentivizing attacking (and defending) multiple systems at the same time by splitting their forces into multiple fleets and using actual intelligence/strategy. This must change.

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#1690 - 2014-01-20 20:16:23 UTC
Fix Sov wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Well, from the sounds of it, CCP is hesitant about having too big of a yield increase, since it is altering the yield of one of the largest isk faucets in the game.

Solution: make it suck more if you don't deploy it, so there's an actual reason for deploying it and defending it
What CCP did: make it suck more to deploy it, with a chance that you won't get robbed by blues ... i.e. nobody deploys it.


You do realize that 75% of the complaints in the thread are people whining about the 5% nerf to nullsec income? Forcing people to risk large percentages of their income would cause all sorts of uproar and hate. This is the wrong approach. There are ALWAYS gangs that can come through that you have no possibility what-so-ever of defending your infrastructure against, especially in very active hostile regions. Forcing people to utilize these to make any reasonable income, and then having that income ravished the moment an unengageable force comes through, is TERRIBLE game design. Your suggestion is way off base, and while we both agree sov needs fixing, I prefer the carrot approach (which this is) as to your nuclear dickuptheass approach.

Fix Sov wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
And guess what, the whole idea of the farms & fields was that it would be raidable by everyone, including blues.

At the press of a single button? No, that's **** gameplay.


Do you get a warning that someone has landed on grid with the device?
Yes. Which means you shouldn't be surprise buttsexed by the guy taking your isk!

Do you then have the opportunity to go stop that person from taking your isk?
Truthfully, not with a 20s access time. But increase that to 5 minutes and you certainly will! This is a minor tweak that will make this very much a small game conflict device.


Fix Sov
#1691 - 2014-01-20 20:24:21 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
You do realize that 75% of the complaints in the thread are people whining about the 5% nerf to nullsec income? Forcing people to risk large percentages of their income would cause all sorts of uproar and hate. This is the wrong approach.

What would 75% of a single tick be, vs 20% of multiple hours worth of ticks be?

Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Forcing people to utilize these to make any reasonable income, and then having that income ravished the moment an unengageable force comes through, is TERRIBLE game design. Your suggestion is way off base, and while we both agree sov needs fixing, I prefer the carrot approach (which this is) as to your nuclear dickuptheass approach.

Your problem is that you seem to be having an issue with what is supposed to be "farms and fields". If it's something which 99% of the nullsec population will not deploy themselves because it sucks, then it's not "farms and fields", because it us useless and there's nothing there for this "roaming gang" to do anything with.

It has to be something which the majority chooses to deploy, or it's useless. The ESS is not something most people'll deploy.

Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Do you get a warning that someone has landed on grid with the device?
Yes. Which means you shouldn't be surprise buttsexed by the guy taking your isk!

Do you then have the opportunity to go stop that person from taking your isk?
Truthfully, not with a 20s access time. But increase that to 5 minutes and you certainly will! This is a minor tweak that will make this very much a small game conflict device.

It'll have to be deployed first. It won't.

The current sov system is too heavily reliant on the defender saving systems by stuffing as many people as possible into the system for the final timer, instead of incentivizing attacking (and defending) multiple systems at the same time by splitting their forces into multiple fleets and using actual intelligence/strategy. This must change.

Shepard Wong Ogeko
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1692 - 2014-01-20 20:26:02 UTC
Give it up Gizznitt Malikite.

The major nullsec alliances have already said that the ESS in its current form will be Shoot On Sight.

The ESS is dead on arrival, and won't see any real use after the first month of people trying to use it as a griefing tool.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#1693 - 2014-01-20 20:32:53 UTC
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:
Give it up Gizznitt Malikite.

The major nullsec alliances have already said that the ESS in its current form will be Shoot On Sight.

The ESS is dead on arrival, and won't see any real use after the first month of people trying to use it as a griefing tool.


How hard do you think it is for CCP to tweak its risk reward ratio? If it isn't used, it is not like it can't be tweaked. And I'm willing to be that even if the major powerblocks all make it KOS that it will still see use, even in its current form!
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1694 - 2014-01-20 20:33:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Normally you make good posts tippia.. but this is just bullshit garbage.

The ESS is essentially fertilizer.. it has the potential to increase your crop yield while also attracting bugs.
…except that fertilizers generally don't kill your crops, which this whole idea does.

Quote:
It absolutely qualifies as a Farms & Fields device
…aside from the simple fact that it makes it less productivity out of the gate and works far better as an offensive tool than to improve your own space. To put it another way “worcing people to risk large percentages of their income would cause all sorts of uproar and hate. This is the wrong approach”, and that is exactly what the ESS does on top of a completely unnecessary and pointless income nerf.

Quote:
How hard do you think it is for CCP to tweak its risk reward ratio?
Very, based on what we've seen from this thread.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#1695 - 2014-01-20 20:35:13 UTC
Fix Sov wrote:

...


To be frank, I really just don't agree with your design strategies. I don't think you understand the balance that must exist between the hunters and their prey in order to ensure a healthy mix of both.
Fix Sov
#1696 - 2014-01-20 20:35:59 UTC
Heh, far better as an offensive tool? Nah, it'll get blown up the instant the guys who dropped it leave, and in the meantime nobody'll be ratting anyways because there are hostiles around. So I'd say it's not working as an offensive tool either.

The current sov system is too heavily reliant on the defender saving systems by stuffing as many people as possible into the system for the final timer, instead of incentivizing attacking (and defending) multiple systems at the same time by splitting their forces into multiple fleets and using actual intelligence/strategy. This must change.

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1697 - 2014-01-20 20:40:22 UTC
Fix Sov wrote:
Heh, far better as an offensive tool? Nah, it'll get blown up the instant the guys who dropped it leave, and in the meantime nobody'll be ratting anyways because there are hostiles around. So I'd say it's not working as an offensive tool either.

It delays their ability to go back to farm, giving you more (free) disruption time. Granted, it might not be much, but it's still a far better offensive tool than a tool for improving your own output.
Fix Sov
#1698 - 2014-01-20 20:42:40 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Fix Sov wrote:
Heh, far better as an offensive tool? Nah, it'll get blown up the instant the guys who dropped it leave, and in the meantime nobody'll be ratting anyways because there are hostiles around. So I'd say it's not working as an offensive tool either.

It delays their ability to go back to farm, giving you more (free) disruption time. Granted, it might not be much, but it's still a far better offensive tool than a tool for improving your own output.

It's disruption time bought at 30m isk, but I see your point.

The current sov system is too heavily reliant on the defender saving systems by stuffing as many people as possible into the system for the final timer, instead of incentivizing attacking (and defending) multiple systems at the same time by splitting their forces into multiple fleets and using actual intelligence/strategy. This must change.

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#1699 - 2014-01-20 20:42:43 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:
Normally you make good posts tippia.. but this is just bullshit garbage.

The ESS is essentially fertilizer.. it has the potential to increase your crop yield while also attracting bugs.
…except that fertilizers generally don't kill your crops, which this whole idea does.

Quote:
It absolutely qualifies as a Farms & Fields device
…aside from the simple fact that it makes it less productivity out of the gate and works far better as an offensive tool than to improve your own space.

Quote:
How hard do you think it is for CCP to tweak its risk reward ratio?
Very, based on what we've seen from this thread.


1.) CCP is implementing the 5% nerf out of the gate to the ESS. This can and should be addressed. However, the ESS may easily exist outside of this stigma, and it is unfortunate they haven't addressed this.

2.) It doesn't make a system less productive outside of the gate. That's like saying fertilizer makes crop yield less productive off the bat because the farmer must invest in the fertilizer. The ESS instantly increases the bounties you will earn when ratting by 5%, and this increases to 10% over time to boot. Yes, you must risk some of your income to get this, but that doesn't make the system less productive. Your assertion that the system is "less productive outside of the gate" is completely FALSE.

3.) We haven't seen any revisions in this thread, so we honestly don't know how difficult it will be to tweak the reward ratio. From a design perspective, it is a simply change in numbers. From a bureaucratic perspective, it probably has some significant red tape if it has the potential to dramatically alter the isk faucets in the game.
Arkanon Nerevar
UK Corp
Goonswarm Federation
#1700 - 2014-01-20 20:44:18 UTC
Mirthander Kane wrote:

As someone that struggles to make enough ISK to pvp vs. the time it takes by doing nullsec ratting, this is one of the worst deployables in the history of EVE...
Seriously, please re-think this deployable.


maybe thats the point, maybe all these compounding nerfs is to destroy the ability for a null pilot to both a) enjoy a vigourious pvp life of carnage and mayhem b) the reasonable ability to make a isk income to support yourself through active ratting on the side.
baseically the pure null dweller or the quintessential EVE player, you know, the kind the game is in oft repeated "theory" designed to support.

maybe all this is part of some CCP master plan to destroy the independent gamer balance to force us into some sort of "GTC for ISK" orwellian cycle, very...tinfoil hat sounding i know, but look at the breadth of the "balance passes" over the last 12-18 months, no longer so preposterous is it?, maybe this "maybe" has something to it.....

Trust Not in God, but Have Faith in Antimatter