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Crime & Punishment

 
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Something need to be done to stop the massacre of missioning ships and minning barges in hisec
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Haedonism Bot
People for the Ethical Treatment of Rogue Drones
#141 - 2014-01-15 14:07:51 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Si1viu wrote:
The main niche for almost all new players in EVE are the PVE and mining activities. EVE is a very hard game with a very abrupt learning curve, so as new player he cannot go to do PVP before he learn some part from very complex game mechanics, or he will be crushed and killed till he will give up and move to another game.
If you want to make them life a hell and cut to chance for a lot of players to get used with this game just for the sake of few hundreds of gankers, then go on.



LIES.. the absolute majority of the successful PVPers and long term players staerted in pvp within a few days of joining the game.


I don't know if there are any statistics to justify that, but I have the same impression. I continued to mine/PVE for some time when I was a new player, but I was also joining E-Uni PvP fleets and running around trying to hero tackle war targets within a week of starting the game. My impression is that people who think they need to get all their skills trained up to a certain level before they PvP tend to never feel like they are ready and just keep on PVEing until they get bored and quit.

Also, Si1viu, you completely missed the OPs point. He isn't concerned about new players. He is upset because he thinks that new players in cheap ships should not be able to gank older players in expensive faction battleships.

www.everevolutionaryfront.blogspot.com

Vote Sabriz Adoudel and Tora Bushido for CSMX. Keep the Evil in EVE!
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#142 - 2014-01-15 14:27:09 UTC
Haedonism Bot wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Si1viu wrote:
The main niche for almost all new players in EVE are the PVE and mining activities. EVE is a very hard game with a very abrupt learning curve, so as new player he cannot go to do PVP before he learn some part from very complex game mechanics, or he will be crushed and killed till he will give up and move to another game.
If you want to make them life a hell and cut to chance for a lot of players to get used with this game just for the sake of few hundreds of gankers, then go on.



LIES.. the absolute majority of the successful PVPers and long term players staerted in pvp within a few days of joining the game.


I don't know if there are any statistics to justify that, but I have the same impression. I continued to mine/PVE for some time when I was a new player, but I was also joining E-Uni PvP fleets and running around trying to hero tackle war targets within a week of starting the game. My impression is that people who think they need to get all their skills trained up to a certain level before they PvP tend to never feel like they are ready and just keep on PVEing until they get bored and quit.

Also, Si1viu, you completely missed the OPs point. He isn't concerned about new players. He is upset because he thinks that new players in cheap ships should not be able to gank older players in expensive faction battleships.



Read the minutes of the last CSM meeting. They state the oens that go deep into PVE, the classical way before doign anythign else usually do not even stay long in game.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Angelica Dreamstar
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#143 - 2014-01-15 14:55:55 UTC
Mojo Joo wrote:
You cannot tank a ship against tens of destroyers, and don't need to be afk. Actually is nothing you can do if some gankers decide to suicide destroy your faction battleship.
Your idea is just that we all need to fly dirty cheap ships to not be killed in hisec by people who not risk anything in the process? Better think again because that is a silly solution.

Fit bling ship.
Undock and wait until you get scanned.
Have equal ship with smartbombs docked.
After scan, dock again.
Switch ships, make fun of yourself in local for forgetting your ammo.
Instaundock to avoid another scan.
Warp to mission space, surrounded by nothing.

Wait, with the finger on the trigger.

Yeah that's me. Rather take the chances. :)

bingo, his pig not being a goat doesn't make the pig wrong, just him an idiot for shouting at his pig "WHY ARENT YOU A GOAT!" (Source)

-- Ralph King-Griffin, about deranged people playing EVE ONLINE
Leto Thule
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#144 - 2014-01-15 14:59:32 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:

Read the minutes of the last CSM meeting. They state the oens that go deep into PVE, the classical way before doign anythign else usually do not even stay long in game.


I hardly think that the minutes from a CSM meeting would qualify as any type of statistical evidence. LOL CSM anyhow.

It depends on the player. I started out as a mission runner. Tried mining, but was so uber-bored by it that I couldnt even stand to make a second trip out to the belts before I was done with it. Moved onto exploration... still thinking i was playing ISK progress quest. It was maybe three months before I got into LEARNING how to pvp with different mechanics and cast away the "skill point requirement" that hedonism bot is referencing (he is spot on with that, btw).

It all depends on the player.

Thunderdome ringmaster, Community Leader and Lord Inquisitor to the Court of Crime and Punishment
Omar Alharazaad
New Eden Tech Support
#145 - 2014-01-15 15:14:02 UTC
Always hated the skillpoint wall argument myself. I find it to be the result of a misapprehension of how EVE works, generally. I know people IRL who got into the pvp aspects of the game within a few weeks of starting, and loved it. Others I know went pure pve and while enjoying it, fizzled out after a couple months, or ragequit when they got the non-consensual pvp dropped on them. The fiercest argument I've heard when it came to why not to play from them was the cost of death in the game compared to other MMO'S. While I sympathize with them, ultimately you can only lose what you choose to undock with, and that's a point a few of them could never really adapt to. That's fine, just means EVE wasn't the game for them.

The real thing is just finding what is FUN for you in the game and working towards that. For some people this is ganking, for others it's mission running, and so on and so forth.

Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#146 - 2014-01-15 15:19:59 UTC
Leto Thule wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:

Read the minutes of the last CSM meeting. They state the oens that go deep into PVE, the classical way before doign anythign else usually do not even stay long in game.


I hardly think that the minutes from a CSM meeting would qualify as any type of statistical evidence. LOL CSM anyhow.

It depends on the player. I started out as a mission runner. Tried mining, but was so uber-bored by it that I couldnt even stand to make a second trip out to the belts before I was done with it. Moved onto exploration... still thinking i was playing ISK progress quest. It was maybe three months before I got into LEARNING how to pvp with different mechanics and cast away the "skill point requirement" that hedonism bot is referencing (he is spot on with that, btw).

It all depends on the player.



Its not a CSM staement.. its a CCP statement.... an no one but CCP can gather such evidence.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Froggy Storm
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#147 - 2014-01-15 15:24:53 UTC
Just in my small opinion the 'price of death' argument is a systemic problem with MMO's in general. The early games were far more brutal in many ways. I know I am dating myself but I remember a particularly bad night in an eq hell level. Set me back a week or more worth of hard effort. But the games (perceived) value was so much higher because of the invested efforts. Not for it being made easy but because it was hard and there was significant loss.

We as a gaming culture are not doing any favors when we push for ever less value to our time.
Leto Thule
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#148 - 2014-01-15 15:41:00 UTC
Froggy Storm wrote:
Just in my small opinion the 'price of death' argument is a systemic problem with MMO's in general. The early games were far more brutal in many ways. I know I am dating myself but I remember a particularly bad night in an eq hell level. Set me back a week or more worth of hard effort. But the games (perceived) value was so much higher because of the invested efforts. Not for it being made easy but because it was hard and there was significant loss.

We as a gaming culture are not doing any favors when we push for ever less value to our time.



+1.

The general shift into "casual" gaming is one of the things that drove me to EvE. Playing a game where everyone wins just plain sucks.

Thunderdome ringmaster, Community Leader and Lord Inquisitor to the Court of Crime and Punishment
Omar Alharazaad
New Eden Tech Support
#149 - 2014-01-15 15:51:53 UTC
The risk of true loss is one of the things that has always kept me coming back to EVE regardless of how badly she pissed me off. I've ragequit before due to my own mistakes. Of course at the time I wasn't yet able to accept that it was my fault that the Bad Thing(tm) happened. After cooling down and approaching things on a rational level I was able to reconcile this.

I, too, remember dying during EQ hell levels, 45 in particular was an ugly place. Then they took them out. The bittervets raised hell over it. By making things easier for the newer folks joining the game they were in a backhanded manner devaluating the suffering of those who endured the misery of timesinks to get to where they were. Accomplishments diminish in perceived value as this trend progresses until ultimately everyone is getting a cookie for reaching the finish line.

What is the point of long term goals if they don't require some blood, sweat, and tears to accomplish? If you go unopposed in the universe what do your accomplishments really mean? Diddly. While a peaceful, yet somewhat gank-curious, bear I prefer to live in an environment where I can suddenly, violently, find myself dealing with the consequences of my own actions (or inactions).

Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
Var D'ovoli
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#150 - 2014-01-15 15:56:23 UTC
Froggy Storm wrote:
Just in my small opinion the 'price of death' argument is a systemic problem with MMO's in general. The early games were far more brutal in many ways. I know I am dating myself but I remember a particularly bad night in an eq hell level. Set me back a week or more worth of hard effort. But the games (perceived) value was so much higher because of the invested efforts. Not for it being made easy but because it was hard and there was significant loss.

We as a gaming culture are not doing any favors when we push for ever less value to our time.



Yet another +1

I love the fact that you have to spend lots of time learning skills to fly a particular fit on a ship. I also like that to become effective in PVP you have to gain experience by actually fighting. If CCP were to ever make EvE as easy as some of the other MMO's out there (I can think of one in which your vehicle has tracks and armor) it would be a huge waste. Part of the resaon that I love EvE is because it's not "easy" and there is no instant gratification.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#151 - 2014-01-15 17:01:00 UTC
Var D'ovoli wrote:
Froggy Storm wrote:
Just in my small opinion the 'price of death' argument is a systemic problem with MMO's in general. The early games were far more brutal in many ways. I know I am dating myself but I remember a particularly bad night in an eq hell level. Set me back a week or more worth of hard effort. But the games (perceived) value was so much higher because of the invested efforts. Not for it being made easy but because it was hard and there was significant loss.

We as a gaming culture are not doing any favors when we push for ever less value to our time.



Yet another +1

I love the fact that you have to spend lots of time learning skills to fly a particular fit on a ship. I also like that to become effective in PVP you have to gain experience by actually fighting. If CCP were to ever make EvE as easy as some of the other MMO's out there (I can think of one in which your vehicle has tracks and armor) it would be a huge waste. Part of the resaon that I love EvE is because it's not "easy" and there is no instant gratification.



Well if eve hat HIT locatiosn like that game.. that would be interesting :)

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Plastic Psycho
Necro-Economics
#152 - 2014-01-15 17:54:40 UTC
Theodoric Darkwind wrote:
The solution is simple, stop flying ships with stupidly expensive fits that make you worth ganking.

Like the cost of a vict.. er, target ever mattered to me? Or to many fellow gankers? Doesn't have to be an expensive target to draw a gank. It only needs to be flown stupidly.

Andski wrote:
Mojo Joo wrote:
They don't need to manage any criminal flags because they never go under -5 security status, thanks to security tags, and after ganking, all they need to do is to dock their flashy pods for 15 minutes, then just repeat repeat the process...

Is not very easy indeed, but people learn fast, and if you rely just on players incompetence as main fix for game mechanics then something is very wrong...


did you know that going from -5 to 0 security status costs a ton of ISK and that security tags are in limited supply?

I grind my own tags - Doesn't take all that long, really. And it pays my costs whilst I'm popping them big rats, besides. Not super fast, I'll grant, but hey, it's a break from chasing dummies about and teaching them to fly smarter.

Omar Alharazaad wrote:
and if you make it a big enough pain in the arse to gank you they'll also probably move on to an easier target. There's no shortage of targets out there... that is, unless you insist on flying something so valuable it really makes the extra time, effort and coordinating WORTH it.
Now THIS is generaly true. Usually.


Kagura Nikon wrote:

LIES.. the absolute majority of the successful PVPers and long term players staerted in pvp within a few days of joining the game.

Not always so.
I was a miner and bot-aspirant. Then a mission-runner, then a wannabe industrialist and inventor before climbing up into a WH. I've come *very* late to ganking and small-blob roaming. My original Main is more than five years old, though he sits almost entirely disused any more. And yeah, I did take a multi-year break in there, but I've been active more years than I was inactive.
Ekkentros Mercari
EVE Landscape Services
#153 - 2014-01-15 22:39:00 UTC
Mojo Joo wrote:
You cannot tank a ship against tens of destroyers, and don't need to be afk. Actually is nothing you can do if some gankers decide to suicide destroy your faction battleship.
Your idea is just that we all need to fly dirty cheap ships to not be killed in hisec by people who not risk anything in the process? Better think again because that is a silly solution.

She flirts with the solution, then dismisses it as silly.

If there's no way you can defend your mission running faction battleship in HiSec, then you shouldn't be flying a mission running faction battleship in HiSec.

TL;DR: Don't reply.
trader joes Ichinumi
Doomheim
#154 - 2014-01-15 23:05:21 UTC
Cybercrusher wrote:
I think this is unbalanced with mining ships. Orca and other mining ships do not have good defenses. I had all my drones from all 3 mining ships and 2 ships took all 3 of my ships, this is not very balanced. I do think that mining ships should be immune from Webifiers and Warp Disruption. I say this because they are slow and can not get away from the bubble of the field before they are taken out. This make it very easy for anyone to take you out. Bottom line there needs to be something out there that would help miners out. Please look into this or if there is something out there, then I have not found it and would like to have someone help me with that. Thanks.


Mining ships choose not to have good defenses. A DCU and being at your keyboard will literally double an orcas tankiness. Mining orcas die because they fit cargo extenders instead and halve their tank.
Capt Starfox
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#155 - 2014-01-16 05:04:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Capt Starfox
Si1viu wrote:
The main niche for almost all new players in EVE are the PVE and mining activities. EVE is a very hard game with a very abrupt learning curve, so as new player he cannot go to do PVP before he learn some part from very complex game mechanics, or he will be crushed and killed till he will give up and move to another game.
If you want to make them life a hell and cut to chance for a lot of players to get used with this game just for the sake of few hundreds of gankers, then go on.


This is not a single player game. Most players who quit simply burn out due to boredom. Everyone I have ever met IRL who played this game quit because they didn't have fun, because running missions and/or mining wasn't fun. I myself played and quit this game twice before I decided to play despite whatever happens.

So, the idea, rather the hope is that through non-consensual PvP other players who would otherwise spend their time running missions, and/or mining solo, or in a small, probably fail highsec corp and would never learn about other mechanics.. making them better players, will see that there are other avenues to experience. This is how I was first introduced into PvP in Eve Online and it's been a great experience ever since for both losses and kills.

Now, let's assume we find someone who is a mission runner, right? He gets ganked. There will always be one of two reasons why he got ganked. One, he was afk on a gate and someone/people got bored. Or, he had an expensive ship/fittings.. or both. This is besides the point, however, the point I'm making is.. let's say he wasn't interested in joining the ranks of PvP and he didn't like that experience very much. He should, at the very least, look into why he was targeted and make the necessary adjustments to help reduce the possibility of it happening again. The people who don't do this are the idiots. But from my ganking career in this video game I can say that most people who get ganked do change for the better/learn something about Eve.

Abandon all hope ye who x up in fleet
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#156 - 2014-01-16 09:28:57 UTC
Capt Starfox wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Haedonism Bot wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Si1viu wrote:
The main niche for almost all new players in EVE are the PVE and mining activities. EVE is a very hard game with a very abrupt learning curve, so as new player he cannot go to do PVP before he learn some part from very complex game mechanics, or he will be crushed and killed till he will give up and move to another game.
If you want to make them life a hell and cut to chance for a lot of players to get used with this game just for the sake of few hundreds of gankers, then go on.



LIES.. the absolute majority of the successful PVPers and long term players staerted in pvp within a few days of joining the game.


I don't know if there are any statistics to justify that, but I have the same impression. I continued to mine/PVE for some time when I was a new player, but I was also joining E-Uni PvP fleets and running around trying to hero tackle war targets within a week of starting the game. My impression is that people who think they need to get all their skills trained up to a certain level before they PvP tend to never feel like they are ready and just keep on PVEing until they get bored and quit.

Also, Si1viu, you completely missed the OPs point. He isn't concerned about new players. He is upset because he thinks that new players in cheap ships should not be able to gank older players in expensive faction battleships.



Read the minutes of the last CSM meeting. They state the oens that go deep into PVE, the classical way before doign anythign else usually do not even stay long in game.


Ehh.. sorta. This is not a single player game. Most players who quit simply burn out due to boredom. Everyone I have ever met IRL who played this game quit because they didn't have fun, because running missions and/or mining wasn't fun. I myself played and quit this game twice before I decided to play despite whatever happens.

So, the idea, rather the hope is that through non-consensual PvP other players who would otherwise spend their time running missions, and/or mining solo, or in a small, probably fail highsec corp and would never learn about other mechanics.. making them better players, will see that there are other avenues to experience. This is how I was first introduced into PvP in Eve Online and it's been a great experience ever since for both losses and kills.

Now, let's assume we find someone who is a mission runner, right? He gets ganked. There will always be one of two reasons why he got ganked. One, he was afk on a gate and someone/people got bored. Or, he had an expensive ship/fittings.. or both. This is besides the point, however, the point I'm making is.. let's say he wasn't interested in joining the ranks of PvP and he didn't like that experience very much. He should, at the very least, look into why he was targeted and make the necessary adjustments to help reduce the possibility of it happening again. The people who don't do this are the idiots. But from my ganking career in this video game I can say that most people who get ganked do change for the better/learn something about Eve.



But that is the point. If you get into PVP Very soon, you are ready for it, You will not rage quit (at least less likely) when you are ganked. Because you were more in connection with the reality of the game.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"
Zosius
The Nordic Associates
Fraternity.
#157 - 2014-01-16 11:59:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Zosius
Came to the thread for tears. Left satisfied

to OP: If it's so easy, 0 risk, why don't you do it? When you divide payout per pilot involved, take out ship costs, take into consideration all coordination needed, time taken scouting for targets, waiting for the right moment, risk operating -10/or costs of tags to go clean and then kill rights hanging.. in the end it's not such great isk/hour as you think.

Please continue playing EvE. Food chain always needs food. And stop quoting about CCP business model, when you have no idea what it is.

http://cloakybastard.blogspot.com
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#158 - 2014-01-16 14:54:54 UTC
This guy did the auto pilot to the system he perished in. I was there to gank a specific hauler, but after watching him sit there and do nothing for over an hour I got a few friends to fly Amarr, buid ships and fly them out to the site.

So.... this guy could have evaded the loss by simply warping away at any time in the hour it took me to get irritated at his ship just sitting there, or simply warping away in the half hour it took to convince my buds to come pop him, or simply warping away during the 45 min of travel/build time to get the involved ships in place. Those are series times, so assuming he landed just a split second before me he had over 2 hours to do ANYTHING. Had he not taunted me with his afk for over an hour I wouldn't have noticed him.

Who is to blame for this?

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=21412391

There was a similarly fit (isk wise) CNR right next to him, but my wife calling me to bed (I get up early for work) was more appealing than doing a lap to amarr to get more BC. We could have doubled down on this guy but our 'lazy' won out over his 'lazy'
Meilandra Vanderganken
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#159 - 2014-01-16 15:33:09 UTC
Zosius wrote:
]in the end it's not such great isk/hour as you think.



In fact, the isk/hour ratio is horrible if you just go about ganking untanked miners for instance... That's the onlyy criteria I use: can I blow it up with one or two cats with a reasonable chance of succes?
Debra Scully
Imperial Phoenix Legion
#160 - 2014-01-16 16:51:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Debra Scully
I don't mine much these days, but my barges are always tanked and have ECM drones out, and no mods more valuable than T2. If I see or even suspect gankers in local, I still switch to a Procurer just in case. My mission runner is mostly T2 with just a couple faction mods for fitting purposes. I have only had one gank attempt against my mining barge ever (it failed), and no attempts against my mission runner. Of course I am still at risk, but there are always softer and juicier targets out there.

Stop whining and take some responsibility for your own safety.

Edit: I see the OP has made a similar thread in multiple forums. I'm surprised she hasn't had the bejeezus wardecced out of her.