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Dev blog: More Deployables from Super Friends

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l0rd carlos
the king asked me to guard the mountain
#121 - 2014-01-14 16:43:14 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
l0rd carlos wrote:
Enteron Anabente wrote:
l0rd carlos wrote:
heretic


You forgot again that interceptors are nullified, didn't you?

No I did not. But the heretic is good against interceptors.

Lots of things are good against interceptors, when they decide not to use their invulnerable "can warp away before being locked" mode.

And I provided an example :)

Anyhow, if they just warp away again they can't steel your money.

Youtube Channel about Micro and Small scale PvP with commentary: Fleet Commentary by l0rd carlos
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#122 - 2014-01-14 16:45:26 UTC
Talar Draylan wrote:
How about I start paying 95% of the sub fees?

How about you pay 300% of the subscription fee, because that is roughly what you make now compared to when I first started the game. Blink

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#123 - 2014-01-14 16:45:37 UTC
502 Bad Gateway wrote:
Yet another form of Taxation our Nullsec alliances will impose on us.



So they'll keep someone in system to stop you triggering it to pay out?

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Isengrimus
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
#124 - 2014-01-14 16:46:00 UTC
Mizhir wrote:
There should be a pirate edition of the EES that allows players to leech FW LP.

It would finally give the farmers a reason to fight for their profit.


This x 10. Also, with the ninja-looting in hisec almost gone due to the new suspect system, similar (although grid-wide) ISK siphons could be introduced in hi-sec, so at least there is some balance. They can print out Pirate Tags sellable in Pirate NPC stations if you want.

Otherwise, as many people said before, the ESS is just another nerf to nullsec ratting - resulting in further decrease in nullsec being useful for anything or anyone but huge blob coalitions.
Innominate
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#125 - 2014-01-14 16:47:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Innominate
Weaselior wrote:
The problems with this implementation basically boil down to two major issues:

1) Interceptors exist

Interceptors are currently bubble immune and cannot be locked before they warp off. They invalidate nearly any defense you'd put up to guard your ESS. A lot of the balance here assumes you can guard it, which isn't really the case. There's no real viable way to kill an interceptor before it gets there, and with the ability of the interceptor to steal, warp out, and warp back in in 40s to get its tags the inty is virtually unkillable. This may be more of an issue that giving bubble immunity to interceptors was simply a mistake, but it makes the intended balance here not work.

2) A massive inbalance in the risk/reward that makes it a bad bet

You're asking people to risk 15% of their income for a 5% boost. That's a bad bet, especially considering point 1: you can't really do anything to affect the odds. You're going to wind up in the red most of the time, and 5% is not enough for people to want to play this game. Plus, the fact you are dumb enough to deploy an ESS means you're suddenly going to get a lot more interceptors in your space and you will lose a lot more often: word will spread about the people dumb enough to drop ESS that you can steal from and interceptors will decend on your space, losing you the money you risked for the ess, and losing you the money you'd have made while you safe up because hostiles are in your ratting system.



There is a third and larger problem.

3) Much effort goes into being able to rat in nullsec with a measure of safety. When bad ratters are losing ships to hostiles, they are acting as a beacon to draw more hostiles into the region which negatively impacts everyone's income. When smart ratters don't feed kills, fewer people show up to cause trouble. The ESS is essentially giving every roaming fleet free, guaranteed isk, paying them to trample through your space. There is no level of risk vs reward, or level of exposure for the attackers where the ESS becomes desirable for the ratters.

As a bounty-siphon, an undesirable hostile module, the ESS could be made to work. Trying to pretend that it will ever be in any way beneficial to the ratters makes me think that whoever designed this has never actually spent any time ratting in nullsec.
i hatechosingnames
Insert Corporation Name Here
#126 - 2014-01-14 16:47:31 UTC
Dear players,

We love the massive battles you wage that we use for publicity, to make these amazing 4000 man brawls even more rare we are making it (yet again) even harder for the basic alliance line member to make the isk to pay for it all.

GG :CCP:
Crash Course
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#127 - 2014-01-14 16:50:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Crash Course
So I will be able to warp to one of these in an interceptor, wait 40 seconds for it to print, and be gone before most people will even enter warp to go defend their ESS?

Sounds like a well thought out idea to me.

Can't wait until Baki Yuku has some sort of bot he uses to just have interceptors fly all around null sec insta warping to these things!
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#128 - 2014-01-14 16:51:27 UTC
Just to update people's math:

Asking people to risk 15.7% of their income, for a 10.5% bonus.

After all, the bounties are being rebased to 95% without the ESS. So you have to pay attention to that number, rather than the 100% value, which you can no longer get, without the ESS.

Question:

Does the pool accumulate at 20%, then 25%, or does the pool accumulate, then pay out at 25% (once it hits that level)


Example to clarify:
I kill 10 ships with a bounty of 100. after I kill ship 5, the bonus ticks to 25%.

Do I get:
(100 x 0.2)x5 + (100 x 0.25)x5
or:
(100x0.25)x10 ?

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Bienator II
madmen of the skies
#129 - 2014-01-14 16:51:45 UTC
Mizhir wrote:
There should be a pirate edition of the EES that allows players to leech FW LP.

It would finally give the farmers a reason to fight for their profit.


so would timer resets but this would be far to easy to fix the problem at its roots

how to fix eve: 1) remove ECM 2) rename dampeners to ECM 3) add new anti-drone ewar for caldari 4) give offgrid boosters ongrid combat value
Qui Binder
Blueprint Haus
Blades of Grass
#130 - 2014-01-14 16:52:06 UTC
Sometimes I wonder if CCP is trying to kill nullsec.
Gilbaron
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#131 - 2014-01-14 16:53:38 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
The problems with this implementation basically boil down to two major issues:

1) Interceptors exist

Interceptors are currently bubble immune and cannot be locked before they warp off. They invalidate nearly any defense you'd put up to guard your ESS. A lot of the balance here assumes you can guard it, which isn't really the case. There's no real viable way to kill an interceptor before it gets there, and with the ability of the interceptor to steal, warp out, and warp back in in 40s to get its tags the inty is virtually unkillable. This may be more of an issue that giving bubble immunity to interceptors was simply a mistake, but it makes the intended balance here not work.




the 40 seconds print are a not that bad mechanic against interceptors. as long as the tags can't be accessed while cloaked and the process takes more than a second (open, take, warp away) there is plenty of time to kill the ceptor

also ceptors usually don't come out of nowhere if you pay attention to intel channels. enemy ceptors in the region ? make sure there are no 200m worth of tags in the ESS
Darth Sith
Genbuku.
Psycho Unicorn Squad
#132 - 2014-01-14 16:54:01 UTC
I have to say that in it's current form, the ESS doesn't make a lot of sense to me. It is a lot of time/effort/risk for little perceived reward.

With a couple of changes I could see this as usable...

-Make the access roles based limiting the 'cashing out ' function
- add a RF timer like the depots
- make them a bit more robust but susceptible to small gangs (like a poco)

The result would be a module that could be deployed by alliance holding corps to capture revenue from ratting space (to replace alliance tax that has been asked for but never materialized. The module could also be used to deploy in ratting space from alliances to capture income from smaller entities.

Think about it: Today we have to rent out a chunk of space to an alliance and it necessitates a 1 - 1 relationship between a system and a renter. Pop a couple of these into a constellation and open it up for smaller entities to rat in and just collect income based on there activities with minimal effort. This may open chunks of 0.0 up to smaller groups as the larger power blocks would not need to micro - manage it.

Additionally, in this form, it would make it a content generation device just like the siphons in that they can be attacked forcing the controlling party to defend them and at the same time be a mechanism for hostiles to inhibit activities of larger groups .

Just my 2 cents but thought I would put in my suggestions vs just dismissing it ..

James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#133 - 2014-01-14 16:54:34 UTC
I'm just waiting for someone to come along and be like "nullbear tears means it's a good idea".

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Major Templar
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#134 - 2014-01-14 16:54:41 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Falcon
5-10% is not worth a chance of losing 20-25% of your profits. The fact that in the past, it may have been a thing because Ceptors weren't nulled but now with the Ceptor being what it is. It's just not worth the risk even with the nanny alarms screaming that someone is in system messing with your crap. I really think this is a worthless thing and shouldn't even be included in the game from point that won't want to use it and because of that it will likely only be used by PvPers for bait. I'm all for the bait idea, but in all this seems like a waste of time they could have put into improving other game related things. You know, balancing shields vs armor and textures. It's an over complicated Null Sec ISK sink that's built on an over complicated 30m ISK sink. I guess if you want to bring about a fight you could use them but that almost seems like overkill to make it 30m ISK. Honestly, just put up a cyno and wrap it in a bubble, problem solved. Almost seems like CCP thought, well there is too much ISK in Null Sec, lets solve that by throwing a new module into the game and call it good. Just my thoughts.

Removed derogatory references - CCP Falcon
Enteron Anabente
Provident Provisions
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#135 - 2014-01-14 16:55:41 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Just to update people's math:

Asking people to risk 15.7% of their income, for a 10.5% bonus.

After all, the bounties are being rebased to 95% without the ESS. So you have to pay attention to that number, rather than the 100% value, which you can no longer get, without the ESS.

Question:

Does the pool accumulate at 20%, then 25%, or does the pool accumulate, then pay out at 25% (once it hits that level)


Example to clarify:
I kill 10 ships with a bounty of 100. after I kill ship 5, the bonus ticks to 25%.

Do I get:
(100 x 0.2)x5 + (100 x 0.25)x5
or:
(100x0.25)x10 ?


The pool accumulates at the current rate when the bounty is earned, not at the current rate when you cash out.
Anys Thes'Realin
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#136 - 2014-01-14 16:56:01 UTC
Something I missed:

Quote:
The ESS has a global beacon, meaning it will be visible by all players, allowing them to warp directly to it. Note that the new scan-block deployable does not interfer with this.


Scan Block deployable? Did I miss something? When was this announced?

My EVElopedia roleplaying profile, last updated February 23rd, 2014: http://tinyurl.com/nfazlch I support having more clothes for our characters!  http://tinyurl.com/kpafjh2
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#137 - 2014-01-14 16:56:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincent Athena
Steve Ronuken wrote:
502 Bad Gateway wrote:
Yet another form of Taxation our Nullsec alliances will impose on us.



So they'll keep someone in system to stop you triggering it to pay out?

No. If it get triggered by anyone but the approved alliance collection agent they kick you out of their space.

But would an alliance bother? Hitting the "share" button gives ISK without the tags, it just goes to the wallets. The "take all" button requires you fly around with tags, in Null, and get those tags to an NPC station to cash out. Seems to be the alliance would just use the present rental method and let the renters deal with ESS units.

Know a Frozen fan? Check this out

Frozen fanfiction
Chron X
Ixion Defence Systems
#138 - 2014-01-14 16:58:09 UTC
There is clearly something wrong with the mechanics of a harassment tool when even the CFC is complaining about it being broken.

This deployable and others like it will just further drive null sec alts into high sec to make an income. The only thing CCP is doing is decreasing the amount of potential targets for BLOPs teams and roaming gangs in null sec. Good job.
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#139 - 2014-01-14 16:58:18 UTC
Weaselior wrote:
The problems with this implementation basically boil down to two major issues:

1) Interceptors exist

Interceptors are currently bubble immune and cannot be locked before they warp off. They invalidate nearly any defense you'd put up to guard your ESS. A lot of the balance here assumes you can guard it, which isn't really the case. There's no real viable way to kill an interceptor before it gets there, and with the ability of the interceptor to steal, warp out, and warp back in in 40s to get its tags the inty is virtually unkillable. This may be more of an issue that giving bubble immunity to interceptors was simply a mistake, but it makes the intended balance here not work.

2) A massive inbalance in the risk/reward that makes it a bad bet

You're asking people to risk 15% of their income for a 5% boost. That's a bad bet, especially considering point 1: you can't really do anything to affect the odds. You're going to wind up in the red most of the time, and 5% is not enough for people to want to play this game. Plus, the fact you are dumb enough to deploy an ESS means you're suddenly going to get a lot more interceptors in your space and you will lose a lot more often: word will spread about the people dumb enough to drop ESS that you can steal from and interceptors will decend on your space, losing you the money you risked for the ess, and losing you the money you'd have made while you safe up because hostiles are in your ratting system.


Agreed for the most part, but there are a few other aspects to consider as well.

1: The delay involved while the tags are being printed opens up some interesting possibilities. Often the ratters, unless they are holed up in a POS somewhere, can simply cruise the 15km while they are printing and scoop them up themselves... although there might be a bit of hostile interaction if the inty pilot sticks around or warps back in.

2: There are some highly amusing scenarios possible with griefing the ratting systems of other players that might come from this. Especially since you know that unless they want to be earning only 80% they MIUST come and try to kill this thing. I'm sure you can see the possibilities.

3: The flip side of that coin is that you could lay some interesting traps from roaming ceptor gangs as well. The most rudimentary being a group of cloaked smart bombing battleships sitting around this little widget waiting for that inty gang reported heading this way. After all, you know they likely will warp directly to it... because they can.

4: On a more mundane note, any type of intel channel worth it's salt should be able to give ratters plenty of warning if a ceptor gang is in the vicinity. Simply scoop and head to the POS, deploy again when they are gone. Of course, you'll have to start building your profit margin back up again after that, but it's better than losing the whole thing (or relying on the base rate you'll have without one).

5: For those complaining that their less scrupulous corp members will take the ISK all for themselves, this is very true. And when they do, you will be notified as to EXACTLY who took it. If you can't handle the issue from there... unsubscribe now. Smile

6: The notification when someone enters it's vicinity is also highly interesting. I can think of several reasonably clever uses for that.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.
Bagehi
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#140 - 2014-01-14 16:58:43 UTC
Reading these comments gives me the impression that the CFC has hoovered up a lot of risk adverse carebears over the years and become the thing they used to despise.