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The Post-Oxytopes World

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Jessica Cartier
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#261 - 2011-11-23 23:38:20 UTC
Lyris Nairn wrote:
As soon as the Winter patch hits, Interdiction will probably pause for at least a little while in efforts to fly the new ships in new and fun ways.

Okay, this statement bothered me, so I gave it further thought.

The Winter patch is chockful of buffs for suicide ganking. Tier 3 BCs look like they were specifically designed to pop tanked exhumers, as well as Orcas. The upgraded destroyers make it easy for lower-SP players to join the fun. And, the buff to blaster damage and fitting requirements is pure gravy for the Brutix, Thorax and Catalyst. Almost makes you suspect that certain CCP devs are supporting suicide ganking, eh? ;)

So, it seems to me that one of the ideal places to test out these fine improvements would be the ice interdiction! Right? So, the interdiction should improve, not pause.

Also, the interdiction makes for good practice for the upcoming Hulkageddon V (recently announced by Helicity and the Goons).
Jessica Cartier
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#262 - 2011-11-23 23:41:28 UTC
JitaJane wrote:

And an alt with 8 posts. All on this thread. Try harder.

I am trying harder... 10 posts now! And, I like this thread, 'cause I like the interdiction. Miners go boom, baby! :)
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
#263 - 2011-11-24 00:41:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Akita T
Weaselior wrote:
I, unlike you, have been monitoring stockpile levels
you, like most of EVE, have never seen a supply side market manipulation and you're unable to grasp how it works; this isn't something where the price just crashes: supply is far below demand, and what we see is depletion of stockpiles at various demand levels
your poor analysis can be spotted from your idea that 'heavy market buyouts' are part of the interdiction; they're not. they're just a way to profit off it, as the stockpiles go back on the market and still need to be burned off; this sort of basic error is part and parcel of your importing demand-side market manipulation principles and not understanding the difference


IF what you say is true and MOST of the stockpiles purchased before the jumps in price have been re-entering the market at somewhat inflated prices while the ACTUAL total game-wide stockpiles are REALLY dwindling and Goonswarm is aware of this, this would either mean that the Goons only control a small percentage of the existing stockpiles (since otherwise, the price would have skyrocketed) or that the Goons do control a majority of stockpiles but have some of them selling it NOW who are idiots.
Assuming it's the former instead of the latter, and the Goons only control a small portion of the stockpile, why haven't you guys mass-pooled more of your cash to buy out most of the remaining isotopes and relist at a much higher price, especially if you're aware that soon enough switching towers over to a different isotope will become radically less painful as expressed in invested time per switch ?

You're getting mightily upset over a simple question over your campaign's efficiency, aren't you ?

Quote:
we will run jita out of oxygen isotopes entirely; the important number isn't the price. the important number is the amount of isotopes on the market
oxytopes will never be 2.3k, and you can see that if you actually look at supply: supply is clustered around 2k and once it punches through this, the last remaining major stockpile (pulled from all over eve as people spot an arbitrage opportunity) and will soar above it because ice is tremendously ineleastic

Don't you perhaps mean "oxytopes will never REMAIN at ONLY 2.3k" ?
Because what you just said above, in plain English (assuming it's a language you know well enough) roughly translates out of context into "oxytopes will never reach 2.3k or more".

I only mentioned the 2.3k figure as being the point where I would agree that the Goons DID indeed manage to do something meaningful with the market. Not that you'll certainly get there soon, nor that you won't get there at all. Just that that's the amount at which, if oxytopes remain stable above it for a good while, it would be clear enough your "interdiction" policy has born fruit.
Or, in other, simpler words, "until oxytopes go over and stay over 2.3k, this might as well just be a transitory thing".
Keyword "might".

And again, if you are so confident that oxytopes WILL go and stay above that figure, why the bloody begejus aren't you all just buying out every last oxytope under 2.3k or whatever your target is and relisting it at whatever your target price is ?
The only conclusions to be drawn from this could be that either you're talking out some other less used for speaking bodily orifice OR you're not really all that confident oxytopes will indeed remain as high as you claim they will.

Akita T evewiki profile | | | Build your own EVE-ready PC
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
#264 - 2011-11-24 00:54:25 UTC
Jessica Cartier wrote:
The Winter patch is chockful of buffs for suicide ganking. Tier 3 BCs look like they were specifically designed to pop tanked exhumers, as well as Orcas. The upgraded destroyers make it easy for lower-SP players to join the fun. And, the buff to blaster damage and fitting requirements is pure gravy for the Brutix, Thorax and Catalyst. Almost makes you suspect that certain CCP devs are supporting suicide ganking, eh? ;)
So, it seems to me that one of the ideal places to test out these fine improvements would be the ice interdiction! Right? So, the interdiction should improve, not pause.

Well, I wouldn't go just that far yet.

Yes, the pre-insurance costs of suicide-ganking will be going down. However, insurance for suicide gankers also goes away completely, which drives the total cost of suicide-ganking up.
All in all, it looks to be as if we're getting a suicide gank nerf, not a buff... but less of a nerf as initially feared when only the CONCORDdokened-equals-no-insurance news bit hit. That's still on the table, isn't it ?

Destroyers might become slightly more ISK-efficient suicide-gankers, but as far as battlecruisers or above goes, looks like the ISK bottom line price per suicide-ganking performance is actually going up, not down.

...

P.S. I personally think suicide-ganking has been made too costly in the past few years (with the repeated CONCORD buffs and the secrating changes and so on) and what we actually need is to make suicide-ganking much cheaper again, not more expensive, but that's a different story.

Akita T evewiki profile | | | Build your own EVE-ready PC
Cyniac
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#265 - 2011-11-24 01:17:16 UTC
Akita T wrote:
Destroyers might become slightly more ISK-efficient suicide-gankers, but as far as battlecruisers or above goes, looks like the ISK bottom line price per suicide-ganking performance is actually going up, not down.


However, ISK efficiency is not a consideration in all suicide ganks. The incoming changes mean that you need less pilots with less SP to effectively suicide gank. Time will tell if suicide ganking goes up or down - might be that selective for profit ganks go down (maybe) while other kinds of ganks (for lulz or to control resources or whatever) probably will go up.
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#266 - 2011-11-24 01:31:49 UTC
Conclusion of this shitopic:

Why do you even try to play?

Log, set your skills que, log off -> do interesting stuff.

You don't need ice, you don't need reactions, you don't need corp or alliance, you don't need ships, mods whatsoever.

Cool stuff guys Lol
Krios Ahzek
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#267 - 2011-11-24 03:31:43 UTC
Akita T wrote:
Weaselior wrote:
I, unlike you, have been monitoring stockpile levels
you, like most of EVE, have never seen a supply side market manipulation and you're unable to grasp how it works; this isn't something where the price just crashes: supply is far below demand, and what we see is depletion of stockpiles at various demand levels
your poor analysis can be spotted from your idea that 'heavy market buyouts' are part of the interdiction; they're not. they're just a way to profit off it, as the stockpiles go back on the market and still need to be burned off; this sort of basic error is part and parcel of your importing demand-side market manipulation principles and not understanding the difference


IF what you say is true and MOST of the stockpiles purchased before the jumps in price have been re-entering the market at somewhat inflated prices while the ACTUAL total game-wide stockpiles are REALLY dwindling and Goonswarm is aware of this, this would either mean that the Goons only control a small percentage of the existing stockpiles (since otherwise, the price would have skyrocketed) or that the Goons do control a majority of stockpiles but have some of them selling it NOW who are idiots.
Assuming it's the former instead of the latter, and the Goons only control a small portion of the stockpile, why haven't you guys mass-pooled more of your cash to buy out most of the remaining isotopes and relist at a much higher price, especially if you're aware that soon enough switching towers over to a different isotope will become radically less painful as expressed in invested time per switch ?

You're getting mightily upset over a simple question over your campaign's efficiency, aren't you ?

Quote:
we will run jita out of oxygen isotopes entirely; the important number isn't the price. the important number is the amount of isotopes on the market
oxytopes will never be 2.3k, and you can see that if you actually look at supply: supply is clustered around 2k and once it punches through this, the last remaining major stockpile (pulled from all over eve as people spot an arbitrage opportunity) and will soar above it because ice is tremendously ineleastic

Don't you perhaps mean "oxytopes will never REMAIN at ONLY 2.3k" ?
Because what you just said above, in plain English (assuming it's a language you know well enough) roughly translates out of context into "oxytopes will never reach 2.3k or more".

I only mentioned the 2.3k figure as being the point where I would agree that the Goons DID indeed manage to do something meaningful with the market. Not that you'll certainly get there soon, nor that you won't get there at all. Just that that's the amount at which, if oxytopes remain stable above it for a good while, it would be clear enough your "interdiction" policy has born fruit.
Or, in other, simpler words, "until oxytopes go over and stay over 2.3k, this might as well just be a transitory thing".
Keyword "might".

And again, if you are so confident that oxytopes WILL go and stay above that figure, why the bloody begejus aren't you all just buying out every last oxytope under 2.3k or whatever your target is and relisting it at whatever your target price is ?
The only conclusions to be drawn from this could be that either you're talking out some other less used for speaking bodily orifice OR you're not really all that confident oxytopes will indeed remain as high as you claim they will.



Why 2.3k anyways? Isn't the current price, a 300% increase, a valid sign that something actually went down?

 Though All Men Do Despise Us
Jessica Cartier
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#268 - 2011-11-24 05:33:49 UTC
Akita T wrote:

Yes, the pre-insurance costs of suicide-ganking will be going down. However, insurance for suicide gankers also goes away completely, which drives the total cost of suicide-ganking up. That's still on the table, isn't it ?

I believe I saw confirmation of this somewhere from CCP Soundwave. I guess he's not one of the fans of suicide ganking... lol.

But, a fleet of destroyers is dirt cheap, even without insurance, and, with the dual-buff to the Catalyst (destroyer buff and blaster buff), I don't think it will take all that many of them to take down a standard-fit Mack or Hulk. The typical T2 module drops from an exhumer will more than pay for the lost destroyers.

As for the foolishly over-tanked exhumer, those nice faction module drops makes it still profitable to take them down with a more pricey ship, such as a Brutix or the new Talos, or even a BS.

Also, remember that many PVP corps already have their own ship reimbursement programs, and that pilots and corps which can afford to lose T2, T3 and capital ships aren't going to blink much at the cost of losing T1 BCs. Especially when the miners are taking a much larger hit, each time a Mack or Hulk goes up in smoke.

Akita T wrote:

Destroyers might become slightly more ISK-efficient suicide-gankers, but as far as battlecruisers or above goes, looks like the ISK bottom line price per suicide-ganking performance is actually going up, not down.

I think this sounds right, too. But, suicide ganking of miners has never really been about profit, at least, not as calculated on per ship loss basis. And, in this particular case, I'm sure that Weaselior will argue that the profits on the ice interdiction will greatly outweigh the costs of the ship losses.

Akita T wrote:

P.S. I personally think suicide-ganking has been made too costly in the past few years (with the repeated CONCORD buffs and the secrating changes and so on) and what we actually need is to make suicide-ganking much cheaper again, not more expensive, but that's a different story.

Cheaper is actually not good. Too much suicide ganking discourages carebear players, and they make up a large percentage of the Eve playerbase. You don't actually want them to quit - you just want them to whine and cry in local, while continuing to pay their subscription fees and flying more ships for you to blow up. :)
Nomad I
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#269 - 2011-11-24 08:58:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Nomad I
deleted
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
#270 - 2011-11-24 14:44:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Akita T
Krios Ahzek wrote:
Why 2.3k anyways? Isn't the current price, a 300% increase, a valid sign that something actually went down?

Because at around 2.3k for oxytopes, assuming a moderate-towards-high skills Covetor with just T1 gear (for uber-cheapness) used for both ice and ore mining, mining Blue Ice becomes roughly as profitable as mining some of the lousier highsec ores (before that, mining any ore, selling it, then and blue ice is better for your bottom line), so the only people who REALLY have an interest in ice mining (in particular Blue Ice mining) being people who are either mathematically challenged, hopelessly masochistic, or mostly interested in the AFK nature of (Blue) ice mining.
When oxytopes go somewhat over 2.3k and Blue Ice roughly over 700k per block, it becomes more profitable in ISK/hour to mine Blue Ice as opposed to mining junk ore in that cheapo barge, so THAT is when people will REALLY START TO CONSIDER that they might be attracted to mining Blue Ice as opposed to, say, continuing to mine Veldspar or Pyroxeres or whatever, in other words, when Goon interdiction measures will finally start to encounter some SIGNIFICANT increases in potential targets.

If Goons can break over and roughly maintain (or even keep increasing) that oxytopes price level in spite of the (amount unknowable) additional quantities of product that will unavoidably and eventually slip past Goon Gallente-space-wide interdiction, THEN I will be convinced that it's the interdiction that's mainly the driver behind the price spike, as opposed to other non-interdiction related factors.

Akita T evewiki profile | | | Build your own EVE-ready PC
corestwo
Goonfleet Investment Banking
#271 - 2011-11-24 17:49:59 UTC
Jessica Cartier wrote:

Akita T wrote:

P.S. I personally think suicide-ganking has been made too costly in the past few years (with the repeated CONCORD buffs and the secrating changes and so on) and what we actually need is to make suicide-ganking much cheaper again, not more expensive, but that's a different story.

Cheaper is actually not good. Too much suicide ganking discourages carebear players, and they make up a large percentage of the Eve playerbase. You don't actually want them to quit - you just want them to whine and cry in local, while continuing to pay their subscription fees and flying more ships for you to blow up. :)

Empire carebears are the 99%, the difference is that CCP listens to them, at least somewhat. Lol

This post was crafted by a member of the GoonSwarm Federation Economic Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

fofofo
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
#272 - 2011-11-24 20:29:55 UTC
corestwo wrote:
Jessica Cartier wrote:
Akita T wrote:
I personally think suicide-ganking has been made too costly in the past few years (with the repeated CONCORD buffs and the secrating changes and so on) and what we actually need is to make suicide-ganking much cheaper again, not more expensive, but that's a different story.

Cheaper is actually not good. Too much suicide ganking discourages carebear players, and they make up a large percentage of the Eve playerbase. You don't actually want them to quit - you just want them to whine and cry in local, while continuing to pay their subscription fees and flying more ships for you to blow up. :)

Empire carebears are the 99%, the difference is that CCP listens to them, at least somewhat. Lol

Eh, they'll still fly around relatively safely, the only difference is how much stuff they'll feel (and be) relatively safe flying with.

Akita T evewiki profile | | | Build your own EVE-ready PC
Peter Tjordenskiold
#273 - 2011-11-25 13:00:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Peter Tjordenskiold
corestwo wrote:
[quote=Jessica Cartier]

Empire carebears are the 99%, the difference is that CCP listens to them, at least somewhat. Lol



Don't forget even CCP is a capitalistic company depending on some paying customers and carebears are a huge part of the them. In opposite to Goons organized on superior communistic principles Cool CCP has to live with customers demanding contrary designed game mechanics.
Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
#274 - 2011-11-29 21:27:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Akita T
Patch Notes wrote:
Player ship wrecks will now drop an increased amount of salvage components.
[...]
Increased the drop of T2 salvage components from ship wrecks.
[...]
Tech 2 mining barge wrecks now properly drop T2 generic components rather than T1 generic components.

That changes something a little bit Twisted

P.S. It also noticeably changes the motivation, scope and extent of upcoming Hulkageddons (or at least the first one until T2 salvage prices catch up).

Akita T evewiki profile | | | Build your own EVE-ready PC
Roywyn Kolkor
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#275 - 2011-11-30 03:17:04 UTC
oxygen prices dropping rather fast, whats up ? they slackin ?
Rakshasa Taisab
Sane Industries Inc.
#276 - 2011-11-30 13:04:55 UTC
Roywyn Kolkor wrote:
oxygen prices dropping rather fast, whats up ? they slackin ?

Lame attempt.

Nyan
Esan Vartesa
Samarkand Financial
#277 - 2011-11-30 23:07:36 UTC
Esan Vartesa wrote:
Weaselior wrote:

the very idea of someone spending all day tearing down a reactor farm and replacing it makes me all tingly inside

i mean i've made people angry enough to quit the game but i've never inflicted that level of griefing


I've seen monkeys derive euphoric pleasure from flinging their own poo at other monkeys.

Doesn't change the fact that they're just stupid monkeys.



I want to apologize for the above statement. Apparently, I erred in my comparison and for that I am truly sorry.

Goons are certainly nothing like poo-flinging monkeys.
Aaron Knossos
Doomheim
#278 - 2011-12-01 00:51:38 UTC
Heard about Goonswarm Shrugged.

Changed tower race.

Don't fly caps.

Bought topes. Sold topes later in day for profit.

Everythingwentbetterthanexpected.jpg
Kyle Myr
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#279 - 2011-12-01 01:00:23 UTC
Akita T wrote:
Krios Ahzek wrote:
Why 2.3k anyways? Isn't the current price, a 300% increase, a valid sign that something actually went down?

Because at around 2.3k for oxytopes, assuming a moderate-towards-high skills Covetor with just T1 gear (for uber-cheapness) used for both ice and ore mining, mining Blue Ice becomes roughly as profitable as mining some of the lousier highsec ores (before that, mining any ore, selling it, then and blue ice is better for your bottom line), so the only people who REALLY have an interest in ice mining (in particular Blue Ice mining) being people who are either mathematically challenged, hopelessly masochistic, or mostly interested in the AFK nature of (Blue) ice mining.
When oxytopes go somewhat over 2.3k and Blue Ice roughly over 700k per block, it becomes more profitable in ISK/hour to mine Blue Ice as opposed to mining junk ore in that cheapo barge, so THAT is when people will REALLY START TO CONSIDER that they might be attracted to mining Blue Ice as opposed to, say, continuing to mine Veldspar or Pyroxeres or whatever, in other words, when Goon interdiction measures will finally start to encounter some SIGNIFICANT increases in potential targets.

If Goons can break over and roughly maintain (or even keep increasing) that oxytopes price level in spite of the (amount unknowable) additional quantities of product that will unavoidably and eventually slip past Goon Gallente-space-wide interdiction, THEN I will be convinced that it's the interdiction that's mainly the driver behind the price spike, as opposed to other non-interdiction related factors.


All the words in this post and you're missing the forest for the trees. Why does the isk/hr of empire miners, which is already fairly terrible, matter? The cost of running any ship or POS that uses Oxygen Isotopes for fuel has tripled in price with respect to that cost.
Krios Ahzek
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#280 - 2011-12-01 01:52:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Krios Ahzek
Kyle Myr wrote:
Akita T wrote:
Krios Ahzek wrote:
Why 2.3k anyways? Isn't the current price, a 300% increase, a valid sign that something actually went down?

Because at around 2.3k for oxytopes, assuming a moderate-towards-high skills Covetor with just T1 gear (for uber-cheapness) used for both ice and ore mining, mining Blue Ice becomes roughly as profitable as mining some of the lousier highsec ores (before that, mining any ore, selling it, then and blue ice is better for your bottom line), so the only people who REALLY have an interest in ice mining (in particular Blue Ice mining) being people who are either mathematically challenged, hopelessly masochistic, or mostly interested in the AFK nature of (Blue) ice mining.
When oxytopes go somewhat over 2.3k and Blue Ice roughly over 700k per block, it becomes more profitable in ISK/hour to mine Blue Ice as opposed to mining junk ore in that cheapo barge, so THAT is when people will REALLY START TO CONSIDER that they might be attracted to mining Blue Ice as opposed to, say, continuing to mine Veldspar or Pyroxeres or whatever, in other words, when Goon interdiction measures will finally start to encounter some SIGNIFICANT increases in potential targets.

If Goons can break over and roughly maintain (or even keep increasing) that oxytopes price level in spite of the (amount unknowable) additional quantities of product that will unavoidably and eventually slip past Goon Gallente-space-wide interdiction, THEN I will be convinced that it's the interdiction that's mainly the driver behind the price spike, as opposed to other non-interdiction related factors.


All the words in this post and you're missing the forest for the trees. Why does the isk/hr of empire miners, which is already fairly terrible, matter? The cost of running any ship or POS that uses Oxygen Isotopes for fuel has tripled in price with respect to that cost.


Stop trolling, your failure campaign clearly has had no visible effect at ALL, because incursion runners can make more money than blue ice miners.

The campaign's goal is to make ice mining profitable, right?

 Though All Men Do Despise Us