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Balancing Feedback: Tier3 Battlecruisers

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Obsidian Hawk
RONA Midgard Academy
#881 - 2011-11-22 00:13:01 UTC
Why are people complaining about sacrificing tank for a web?

This is not a solo game. its a massive multiplayer game. Just pay one of your corp mates to fly around in a rifter with some webs to slow down your targets.

Why Can't I have a picture signature.

Also please support graphical immersion, bring back the art that brought people to EvE online originaly.
Forum Alt Shaishi
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#882 - 2011-11-22 18:40:32 UTC
Why not give the Caldari 2 Tier 3 BC'sIdea
One hybrid and one missile platform.
The Underdark
Perkone
Caldari State
#883 - 2011-11-22 18:43:50 UTC
Obsidian Hawk wrote:
Why are people complaining about sacrificing tank for a web?

This is not a solo game. its a massive multiplayer game. Just pay one of your corp mates to fly around in a rifter with some webs to slow down your targets.



I understand your intended statement, and it's definatly a good idea to ahve more people.

HOWEVER...

if you need to pay a corpy to help you, you need a new corp :(
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#884 - 2011-11-22 19:57:37 UTC
Obsidian Hawk wrote:
Why are people complaining about sacrificing tank for a web?

This is not a solo game. its a massive multiplayer game. Just pay one of your corp mates to fly around in a rifter with some webs to slow down your targets.



Thing is that you don't need to sacrifice whatsoever if you use Tornado. That's the problem.

To make Rails Naga or Talos perform like Tornado you need to add a lot of low/med slots to these 2.

Tornado can fit a very strong tank, still speed tank, track at high speed and apply important damage.
The only competing with is the Oracle thx to his 70K EHP ability and performing weapon system, actually if you put at 140km Tornado vs Oracle both average resistance fit and not moving chances are Oracle wins but by very short margin, if both have transversal then Tornado wins hands down.

Talos and Naga can not compete with these too at any level atm, the worst of all being Talos by a large margin.
Aglais
Ice-Storm
#885 - 2011-11-23 03:24:43 UTC
Tanya Powers wrote:
Obsidian Hawk wrote:
Why are people complaining about sacrificing tank for a web?

This is not a solo game. its a massive multiplayer game. Just pay one of your corp mates to fly around in a rifter with some webs to slow down your targets.



Thing is that you don't need to sacrifice whatsoever if you use Tornado. That's the problem.

To make Rails Naga or Talos perform like Tornado you need to add a lot of low/med slots to these 2.

Tornado can fit a very strong tank, still speed tank, track at high speed and apply important damage.
The only competing with is the Oracle thx to his 70K EHP ability and performing weapon system, actually if you put at 140km Tornado vs Oracle both average resistance fit and not moving chances are Oracle wins but by very short margin, if both have transversal then Tornado wins hands down.

Talos and Naga can not compete with these too at any level atm, the worst of all being Talos by a large margin.


Would like to point out that if you can get a Talos on top of your target, your target will turn into a nice cloud of faintly ionized mist. I can see them being a good thing to warp directly on top of high-value targets with extreme HP, or WT mission runners.

Naga seems to perform similarly although at a longer range, with blasters; not worth fitting rails on it because rails, even though they suck less, are still the bottom of the barrel.

I lied, they're still better than torps.
Pro Versius
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#886 - 2011-11-23 04:15:27 UTC
OK I am not reading 45 pages of topic.

The Talos is still overpowered compared to the other 3 Tier 3 BC's.. I just got owned in all my Tier 3's on Sisi because someone put TD drones in the drone bay.. Last I read this is not supposed to be possible and all 4 bc's are supposed to be balanced together..

Simple solution, give them enough PG to fit the biggest close range turrets, no drones, and the Talos needs to lose a mid slot.. Same layout as Oracle..

You buffed the guns, so now nerf the ship. Remove a mid slot and lose the drones on the Talos.
Ganthrithor
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#887 - 2011-11-23 04:52:23 UTC
Pro Versius wrote:
OK I am not reading 45 pages of topic.

The Talos is still overpowered compared to the other 3 Tier 3 BC's.. I just got owned in all my Tier 3's on Sisi because someone put TD drones in the drone bay.. Last I read this is not supposed to be possible and all 4 bc's are supposed to be balanced together..

Simple solution, give them enough PG to fit the biggest close range turrets, no drones, and the Talos needs to lose a mid slot.. Same layout as Oracle..

You buffed the guns, so now nerf the ship. Remove a mid slot and lose the drones on the Talos.


Frak off. The Talos is fine-- if anything, it could use an additional mid. If you want to kill t3 BCs, fly a crusader.
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#888 - 2011-11-23 11:53:56 UTC
The Talos drones is pulling the concept apart... But plz remember these ships are meant to fight battleships using their small signature to their advantage.Against battlecruisers and smaller you will likely be better off with medium weaponry.

I also believe the Tornado is too fast and all ships should have an even smaller signature radious.

Pinky
Kos Meza
CCC Circle
#889 - 2011-11-23 14:51:05 UTC
When was the last time any one saw a rokh in use btw? Just wondering.

Edit: I saw one mining a month or so back.
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#890 - 2011-11-23 15:10:29 UTC
Kos Meza wrote:
When was the last time any one saw a rokh in use btw? Just wondering.

Edit: I saw one mining a month or so back.



You can see them on SISI but they blow easily enough to not be something you must be worried about, just like Talos, yes it can hurt a very close range but it's very situational and whenever you're going to jump gates from now on you can expect those out there, because it's the only valid tactic with provided you have enough minmatar reccons to slow everything.

Nothing new, it's what you have to do already with blaster megas or hypes, you'll just have more dps.

Thing is that if you expect to use a whole gallente fleet to defend your space you better bring only Nyx Thany Moros and Erebus.

Every sub cap fleet from caldari to amarr or worst, minmatar will just annihilate gallente sub cap fleets like popcorn.

960ApofiS069
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#891 - 2011-11-23 15:39:37 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Here is the latest update on these ships:

NAGA


  • Missile role removed, now focuses as a hybrid platform
  • 10% Torpedo velocity per level swapped for 5% to Large Hybrid Turret damage per level


As pointed out, even with the velocity bonus, torpedoes have a too short of a range to be useful in practical situation with the Naga since it has the lowest mobility of all tier 3 battlecruisers and quite poor defensive options. Aligning this ship into a missile platform would have required a long range option as well, meaning the use of cruise missiles, which created a certain number of issues.

Specializing for a hybrid long range platform made more sense with the Naga role, which is why the damage bonus was appealing, especially when combined with CCP Tallest changes; it also makes more sense regarding Caldari tier philosophy, where highest tech 1 tiers usually are hybrid platforms (Merlin, Moa, Rokh).


TALOS


  • 25m3 dronebay and bandwidth added


Even if quite in opposition with the tier 3 battlecruiser role design, it adds an edge this ship needs over the other variants, especially since the Naga now it does the same damage with Hybrids. So, while we are looking at the blaster situation, we agreed giving the Talos a bit more survability against smaller threats was a good compromise for the time being.


TORNADO


  • Large Projectile Turret Falloff reduced from 10 to 5% per level


The reason for this reduction was mainly due to the range falloff reaches on autocannons when combined with the proper rigs, Barrage and Tracking Enchancers, dwarfing blasters in the close range department; we will see how the situation evolves and possibly make further changes to compensate.


Also, please note some small powergrid/CPU changes may happen to the tier 3 battlecruisers in the next build.

Thanks for your time.



thx for the most retar..ded idea in eve, naga should be torp/cruise boat. looks like some ppl from ccp still suffers from brain lag, ccp HC should better fix that!
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#892 - 2011-11-23 16:10:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Denmark
You won't see Rokhs a lot because

  • People will have to actively play to do missions with it instead of slugging missiles
  • Optimal bonus is useless for a fleet ship already having the best range
  • Most other battleships does 25% more damage under 50km
  • Getting any dps benefits with range is near impossible in a fluid battle
  • Hybrids have their damage types locked up pretty tight
  • Large Shield Extenders are not as effecient as 1600mm plates and active tanks sucks for fleet pvp


The Naga is different in many areas and should not be compared directly.
OT Smithers
A Farewell To Kings...
Dock Workers
#893 - 2011-11-24 01:55:22 UTC
Aglais wrote:

Would like to point out that if you can get a Talos on top of your target, your target will turn into a nice cloud of faintly ionized mist. I can see them being a good thing to warp directly on top of high-value targets with extreme HP, or WT mission runners.

Naga seems to perform similarly although at a longer range, with blasters; not worth fitting rails on it because rails, even though they suck less, are still the bottom of the barrel.

I lied, they're still better than torps.


So your argument is that everything is fine because there is that one point in space -- a true warp to zero -- at which a properly fitted Talos will defeat its' enemy?
OT Smithers
A Farewell To Kings...
Dock Workers
#894 - 2011-11-24 01:57:58 UTC
Kos Meza wrote:
When was the last time any one saw a rokh in use btw? Just wondering.

Edit: I saw one mining a month or so back.


I can count on one hand the number of times I have seen ANY Caldari BS used in PvP. Not that this is surprising mind you.
OT Smithers
A Farewell To Kings...
Dock Workers
#895 - 2011-11-24 02:02:22 UTC
I will be astonished if I see people flying Naga's. The biggest impact it will have is a whole bunch of PISSED Caldari pilots womdering why CCP released two Gallente BCs and they got nothing.

The Tornado looks pretty sweet. If I stick around I'll definately fly that.
Phantomania
Lonely Trek
#896 - 2011-11-24 06:04:25 UTC


Surprise, Surprise....

Still nothing from CCP....Roll

I think this needs to be discussed! We're gona end up with a Naga that won't be used, that'll be a nice amount of man hours wasted!
Rip Minner
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
#897 - 2011-11-24 06:11:36 UTC
Tanya Powers wrote:
Obsidian Hawk wrote:
Why are people complaining about sacrificing tank for a web?

This is not a solo game. its a massive multiplayer game. Just pay one of your corp mates to fly around in a rifter with some webs to slow down your targets.



Thing is that you don't need to sacrifice whatsoever if you use Tornado. That's the problem.

To make Rails Naga or Talos perform like Tornado you need to add a lot of low/med slots to these 2.

Tornado can fit a very strong tank, still speed tank, track at high speed and apply important damage.
The only competing with is the Oracle thx to his 70K EHP ability and performing weapon system, actually if you put at 140km Tornado vs Oracle both average resistance fit and not moving chances are Oracle wins but by very short margin, if both have transversal then Tornado wins hands down.

Talos and Naga can not compete with these too at any level atm, the worst of all being Talos by a large margin.



Tanya the Oracle needs something to kill Pirate

Is it a rock point a lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship point a lazer at it and profit. I dont see any problems here.
Rip Minner
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
#898 - 2011-11-24 06:20:12 UTC
Pinky Denmark wrote:
You won't see Rokhs a lot because

  • People will have to actively play to do missions with it instead of slugging missiles
  • Optimal bonus is useless for a fleet ship already having the best range
  • Most other battleships does 25% more damage under 50km
  • Getting any dps benefits with range is near impossible in a fluid battle
  • Hybrids have their damage types locked up pretty tight
  • Large Shield Extenders are not as effecient as 1600mm plates and active tanks sucks for fleet pvp


The Naga is different in many areas and should not be compared directly.


It mite not be a Rokh but it's still a Large Hybird weapon ship so it's just a screwed as every other Large turrent Hybird ship for major fleet fights.

How ever it will do just fine for all the thighs that Hybird ships are already used for. Nothing more nothing less. End of story.

I personly look forward to all the smack talkers saying Hybirds are fine just need to find the right fits.

Becouse I plain on being a fly on the wall of that major fleet fight were one side is primarly Gallente and the other side has the fairly standered fleet used today. So I can film it and play it over and over and laugh my ars off. And to also link a copy to CCP with that almighty we told you so.

Is it a rock point a lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship point a lazer at it and profit. I dont see any problems here.
Ganthrithor
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#899 - 2011-11-24 06:54:02 UTC
The Naga makes a good 100km sniper, just sayin. Also, it gets a certain damage bonus that the Rokh doesn't, which actually makes it more useful than a Rokh imho. It's not a terrible ship. It also does OK with a blaster fit v0v

I won't be flying one, but only cause I like the Talos more :3
Judie Ramone
State War Academy
Caldari State
#900 - 2011-11-24 09:39:01 UTC
Dear CCP,
Please stop any attempt at making the Naga a split weapon platform ship. Caldari players are not accustomed to little inconveniences like "maneuvering their ships" or "training anything besides missiles and shields." Just give it cruise missiles so all they have to do is hit F1 to win. Everyone knows that there is a real lack of players utilizing Caldari battlecruisers in Eve, perhaps if you overpower the Naga just enough you can offset the other injustices visited upon these good people.

Blink