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Balancing Feedback: Tier3 Battlecruisers

First post
Author
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#921 - 2011-11-26 10:40:37 UTC
Aglais wrote:
inane bitching


Dear Caldari pilots: quit bitching about having to train more than one weapon system. Quit whining about how you have no PvP ships. If you hate Drakes (which are, incidentally, one of the most used PvP ships in the game) then fly a Cerberus, Tengu, Falcon, Rook, Blackbird, Crow, Raptor, or Scorpion, all of which are useful PvP ships. If that's not good enough for you, then CROSSTRAIN LIKE EVERYONE ELSE HAS.

Why Caldari pilots think they should only have to train one race of hulls and one weapon system in order to be good at everything is beyond me.
erfta
State War Academy
Caldari State
#922 - 2011-11-26 13:20:53 UTC  |  Edited by: erfta
Ganthrithor wrote:
Aglais wrote:
inane bitching


Dear Caldari pilots: quit bitching about having to train more than one weapon system. Quit whining about how you have no PvP ships. If you hate Drakes (which are, incidentally, one of the most used PvP ships in the game) then fly a Cerberus, Tengu, Falcon, Rook, Blackbird, Crow, Raptor, or Scorpion, all of which are useful PvP ships. If that's not good enough for you, then CROSSTRAIN LIKE EVERYONE ELSE HAS.

Why Caldari pilots think they should only have to train one race of hulls and one weapon system in order to be good at everything is beyond me.



No, they dont want to go from the missiles to hybrids. You know full well that's not a profitable investment, and once you train out of caldari weapons your minutes from mini/amarr hulls too; It is just going to be sad when gallete players have more reason to fly a caldari ship, than most caldari.

or screw hybids mama wants a mannly gun

no one reads the TOS not even the guy that writes it. this is sig worthy http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/11/09/mortal-online-plagiarizes-eve-onlines-terms-of-service/1#c35015206

Judie Ramone
State War Academy
Caldari State
#923 - 2011-11-26 19:42:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Judie Ramone
redacted
Sigras
Conglomo
#924 - 2011-11-26 20:08:44 UTC
Alexandros Balfros wrote:
I was looking forward to the naga but then it was made a rail platform i died a little inside

I'm not training gunnery when i'm specced in missiles :/

Were you equally upset that the oracle, talos and tornado werent caldari?

sometimes they put stuff in the game that you cant fly yet . . . it gives you something to train for.
Xonk
Blue Horizon Enterprises
#925 - 2011-11-26 22:10:00 UTC
Ok folks, time to weigh in.

After spending several hours on the Test Server with a Naga, as well as with my corp mates with the other new ships...we have come to the conclusion that the suck. No, really. We each got a whip that we fly...Me, the Naga, and with the Amarr and the Galente ship. We shot at each other. I got popped by me ceo with his Galente ship. I then got my Rattlesnake, and shot at both of them, and I popped him. We tried SEVERAL different fits. I have all my shield skills to 5, but i suck at gunnery, I am better at missiles and drones. See, we feel that after testing these, that they are NOT a good PvE ship, or even PvP as they are right now. You would need SEVERAL of these ships to take down a Battleship. So, PLEASE make these a bit better, just turn them into Battleships, and add more things....for the Naga, drones and missiles, and more slots and a better cap and shields. Otherwise, I don't see where these would fit in. I am not complaining, just stating there needs to be something done, in order for these ships to be of any use.
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#926 - 2011-11-27 00:18:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Ganthrithor
erfta wrote:
Ganthrithor wrote:
Aglais wrote:
inane bitching


Dear Caldari pilots: quit bitching about having to train more than one weapon system.



No, they dont want to go from the missiles to hybrids.


lol


Also, how are missile-focused Caldari pilots "minutes away" from being able to fly Amarr / Minmatar ships exactly? They only need to train a new weapon system and for Amarr a new set of tanking skills as well...
erfta
State War Academy
Caldari State
#927 - 2011-11-27 02:46:35 UTC  |  Edited by: erfta
Ganthrithor wrote:
erfta wrote:
Ganthrithor wrote:
Aglais wrote:
inane bitching


Dear Caldari pilots: quit bitching about having to train more than one weapon system.



No, they dont want to go from the missiles to hybrids.


lol


Also, how are missile-focused Caldari pilots "minutes away" from being able to fly Amarr / Minmatar ships exactly? They only need to train a new weapon system and for Amarr a new set of tanking skills as well...

my witty post is lost cry, and yes i editted this mintues after noticing

no one reads the TOS not even the guy that writes it. this is sig worthy http://massively.joystiq.com/2011/11/09/mortal-online-plagiarizes-eve-onlines-terms-of-service/1#c35015206

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#928 - 2011-11-27 04:59:32 UTC
Xonk wrote:
Ok folks, time to weigh in.

After spending several hours on the Test Server with a Naga, as well as with my corp mates with the other new ships...we have come to the conclusion that the suck. No, really. We each got a whip that we fly...Me, the Naga, and with the Amarr and the Galente ship. We shot at each other. I got popped by me ceo with his Galente ship. I then got my Rattlesnake, and shot at both of them, and I popped him. We tried SEVERAL different fits. I have all my shield skills to 5, but i suck at gunnery, I am better at missiles and drones. See, we feel that after testing these, that they are NOT a good PvE ship, or even PvP as they are right now. You would need SEVERAL of these ships to take down a Battleship. So, PLEASE make these a bit better, just turn them into Battleships, and add more things....for the Naga, drones and missiles, and more slots and a better cap and shields. Otherwise, I don't see where these would fit in. I am not complaining, just stating there needs to be something done, in order for these ships to be of any use.


Seriously? Smile

Look my friend, nobody ever said they were designed to go toe to toe with a Rattlesnake.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Xonk
Blue Horizon Enterprises
#929 - 2011-11-27 06:38:28 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
Xonk wrote:
Ok folks, time to weigh in.

After spending several hours on the Test Server with a Naga, as well as with my corp mates with the other new ships...we have come to the conclusion that the suck. No, really. We each got a whip that we fly...Me, the Naga, and with the Amarr and the Galente ship. We shot at each other. I got popped by me ceo with his Galente ship. I then got my Rattlesnake, and shot at both of them, and I popped him. We tried SEVERAL different fits. I have all my shield skills to 5, but i suck at gunnery, I am better at missiles and drones. See, we feel that after testing these, that they are NOT a good PvE ship, or even PvP as they are right now. You would need SEVERAL of these ships to take down a Battleship. So, PLEASE make these a bit better, just turn them into Battleships, and add more things....for the Naga, drones and missiles, and more slots and a better cap and shields. Otherwise, I don't see where these would fit in. I am not complaining, just stating there needs to be something done, in order for these ships to be of any use.


Seriously? Smile

Look my friend, nobody ever said they were designed to go toe to toe with a Rattlesnake.



Heh. I know, it was close by, and I put some heavy missiles on it. I guess my, and my friend's main question is, what exactly is the role of these ships? Are they PvE, PvP, Gank? etc. Just curious, and perhaps a DEV can answer... :)
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#930 - 2011-11-27 09:37:09 UTC
Xonk wrote:

Heh. I know, it was close by, and I put some heavy missiles on it. I guess my, and my friend's main question is, what exactly is the role of these ships? Are they PvE, PvP, Gank? etc. Just curious, and perhaps a DEV can answer... :)

Another tier where matard can shine, made for pvp not solo but small gang or sniper fleets.
InsomniaHUN
Stargate Universe SGU
#931 - 2011-11-27 11:06:52 UTC
Sigras wrote:
wow, I cant believe that everyone is complaining about the naga . . . did you people fly it with torpedoes? its WAY better now.


yea lot of us used it with torpedoes, and I can say.. it s*cks now with rails...
Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#932 - 2011-11-27 15:55:15 UTC
Alexandros Balfros wrote:
I was looking forward to the naga but then it was made a rail platform i died a little inside

I'm not training gunnery when i'm specced in missiles :/

You're missing out on 3/4 of the ships in the game. I think you have more to be sad about than the Naga.

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.

Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#933 - 2011-11-27 15:59:38 UTC
InsomniaHUN wrote:
Sigras wrote:
wow, I cant believe that everyone is complaining about the naga . . . did you people fly it with torpedoes? its WAY better now.


yea lot of us used it with torpedoes, and I can say.. it s*cks now with rails...

More range, more dps, better fit, an ability to hit targets before dying. I think you are a wee bit mistaken.

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.

Aglais
Ice-Storm
#934 - 2011-11-27 19:59:06 UTC
Ganthrithor wrote:
Aglais wrote:
inane bitching


Dear Caldari pilots: quit bitching about having to train more than one weapon system. Quit whining about how you have no PvP ships. If you hate Drakes (which are, incidentally, one of the most used PvP ships in the game) then fly a Cerberus, Tengu, Falcon, Rook, Blackbird, Crow, Raptor, or Scorpion, all of which are useful PvP ships. If that's not good enough for you, then CROSSTRAIN LIKE EVERYONE ELSE HAS.

Why Caldari pilots think they should only have to train one race of hulls and one weapon system in order to be good at everything is beyond me.


I don't think I only have to train one weapon system to be good at everything. To actually be good at everything, one would actually have to train all weapon systems. I don't think I should have to only train one faction, either. I just want it to be so that I can train into a faction for a new set of tactics that I could potentially use, not because "Faction Y's ships are undoubtedly built solely for gameplay variant Z; don't even bother using Faction X". Which is currently the case with Amarr/Minmatar for PvP, and caldari for PvE. You should direct the 'training more than one weapon system' at all the cretins who refuse to acknowledge the Naga anymore now that it isn't a torp boat.

I was also under the impression that the Raptor (or, as people like to call it, Craptor) wasn't a very good ship.

On a side note, currently the only things I can't fly are caps and Amarr battleships (which I'm considering remedying in the latter part, as I've not experienced them yet), and anything BC and below I for sure have proper T2 weapons for and support skills. I've done crosstraining and tried out everything, and I can say with some certainty that I don't enjoy flying Minmatar. Don't throw the "Well, you obviously have no skill with managing transversal and are a scrub" at me. Some people enjoy the whole 'falling down a flight of stairs in an office chair with Uzis' that is Minmatar. I'm not one of them. Everyone has a different preference for playstyle, and using ships that operate more on kiting is not mine.

"Well why don't you fly Amarr more then?" I've been considering it. I just think that it'd be nice if Caldari hybrid boats performed a bit better in general, because I somewhat like the 'great shield tank, longer range guns' approach that they try to do. It's just that this isn't currently done very well.
I'm Down
Perkone
Caldari State
#935 - 2011-11-27 22:06:25 UTC
I just don't see the point in any of these ships in close range compared to a hurricane which gets a drone bay, way more ehp, high dmg, high speed, better tracking, and a choice between utility high slots or more dmg.

Basically, the only point of these ships is long range warfare where they become even more paper thin. With long range warfare, the tornado can't fit for ****, the naga beats the talos, and the oracle combines the best tracking even w/o the 37.5 % boost from the talos, with high alpha thanks to tachyons and good speed.

Seriously, in close range combat, there's no situation I can think of where I'd rather have a fleet of these, over a fleet of welp hurricanes that cost less, and have more versatility and ehp.

if you're going to make them long range boats pretty exclusively, then at the very least, give them more base lock range.
Rip Minner
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
#936 - 2011-11-28 01:05:09 UTC
Sigras wrote:
Alexandros Balfros wrote:
I was looking forward to the naga but then it was made a rail platform i died a little inside

I'm not training gunnery when i'm specced in missiles :/

Were you equally upset that the oracle, talos and tornado werent caldari?

sometimes they put stuff in the game that you cant fly yet . . . it gives you something to train for.


Let me help you out.

I think what he means is that he is not training crap Hybirds.

I already started there with them to late for me.

And he is right. He is much better off spending the time training Projectiles or Lazers.

And no think god there is the Tornado and Oracle. Two times the ganking Hybird ships not realy needed this time or any other time.

Is it a rock point a lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship point a lazer at it and profit. I dont see any problems here.

Rip Minner
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
#937 - 2011-11-28 01:09:42 UTC
Xonk wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Xonk wrote:
Ok folks, time to weigh in.

After spending several hours on the Test Server with a Naga, as well as with my corp mates with the other new ships...we have come to the conclusion that the suck. No, really. We each got a whip that we fly...Me, the Naga, and with the Amarr and the Galente ship. We shot at each other. I got popped by me ceo with his Galente ship. I then got my Rattlesnake, and shot at both of them, and I popped him. We tried SEVERAL different fits. I have all my shield skills to 5, but i suck at gunnery, I am better at missiles and drones. See, we feel that after testing these, that they are NOT a good PvE ship, or even PvP as they are right now. You would need SEVERAL of these ships to take down a Battleship. So, PLEASE make these a bit better, just turn them into Battleships, and add more things....for the Naga, drones and missiles, and more slots and a better cap and shields. Otherwise, I don't see where these would fit in. I am not complaining, just stating there needs to be something done, in order for these ships to be of any use.


Seriously? Smile

Look my friend, nobody ever said they were designed to go toe to toe with a Rattlesnake.



Heh. I know, it was close by, and I put some heavy missiles on it. I guess my, and my friend's main question is, what exactly is the role of these ships? Are they PvE, PvP, Gank? etc. Just curious, and perhaps a DEV can answer... :)



Gank and I can see them working wonders in class 1-2 wormholes for pos bashing.

Is it a rock point a lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship point a lazer at it and profit. I dont see any problems here.

Rip Minner
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
#938 - 2011-11-28 01:14:30 UTC
I'm Down wrote:
I just don't see the point in any of these ships in close range compared to a hurricane which gets a drone bay, way more ehp, high dmg, high speed, better tracking, and a choice between utility high slots or more dmg.

Basically, the only point of these ships is long range warfare where they become even more paper thin. With long range warfare, the tornado can't fit for ****, the naga beats the talos, and the oracle combines the best tracking even w/o the 37.5 % boost from the talos, with high alpha thanks to tachyons and good speed.

Seriously, in close range combat, there's no situation I can think of where I'd rather have a fleet of these, over a fleet of welp hurricanes that cost less, and have more versatility and ehp.

if you're going to make them long range boats pretty exclusively, then at the very least, give them more base lock range.



Ya in major fleet fights more or less this is right.

Is it a rock point a lazer at it and profit. Is it a ship point a lazer at it and profit. I dont see any problems here.

Xonk
Blue Horizon Enterprises
#939 - 2011-11-28 01:15:19 UTC
Rip Minner wrote:
Xonk wrote:
Ranger 1 wrote:
Xonk wrote:
Ok folks, time to weigh in.

After spending several hours on the Test Server with a Naga, as well as with my corp mates with the other new ships...we have come to the conclusion that the suck. No, really. We each got a whip that we fly...Me, the Naga, and with the Amarr and the Galente ship. We shot at each other. I got popped by me ceo with his Galente ship. I then got my Rattlesnake, and shot at both of them, and I popped him. We tried SEVERAL different fits. I have all my shield skills to 5, but i suck at gunnery, I am better at missiles and drones. See, we feel that after testing these, that they are NOT a good PvE ship, or even PvP as they are right now. You would need SEVERAL of these ships to take down a Battleship. So, PLEASE make these a bit better, just turn them into Battleships, and add more things....for the Naga, drones and missiles, and more slots and a better cap and shields. Otherwise, I don't see where these would fit in. I am not complaining, just stating there needs to be something done, in order for these ships to be of any use.


Seriously? Smile

Look my friend, nobody ever said they were designed to go toe to toe with a Rattlesnake.



Heh. I know, it was close by, and I put some heavy missiles on it. I guess my, and my friend's main question is, what exactly is the role of these ships? Are they PvE, PvP, Gank? etc. Just curious, and perhaps a DEV can answer... :)



Gank and I can see them working wonders in class 1-2 wormholes for pos bashing.


That is kind of what we thought. But as many people have said, you must have very good gunnery skills, if you want to use it as a gunship, and, long range guns, perhaps even artillery. I wish I could have found a better shield fit, is all, lol.
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
#940 - 2011-11-28 02:21:08 UTC
I'll copy this from the other thread:

Now, can anyone explain, without whining about how they don't have hybrids trained, how this version is anything less than a stellar improvement over the split bonus version?

Tau Dades wrote:

hybrids suck, Caldari are a missile race.

The rail naga outperforms the old one by a mile.
Some numbers using 3 damage mods no range mods or rigs:

The old naga:
950 DPS out to 30km
1050 with rage (which never get used, for good reason)
740 dps out to 45km
Note that you also have to knock off ~10% of that range for flight time, so it's more like 27 and 40km

The New naga:
Blasters:
1070 dps at 7+13km
850 at 17+16
1200 DPS at 12+6
Note that guns also have much more range boosting options than missiles
Rails:
AM:
700 at 54+30
Spike: 400 at 194+30

Now, that means, without even looking at range increasing mods/rigs (which help the new naga MUCH more than the old one) we have:

Blaster naga has more dps out to about 15km, then the torp one pulls ahead until 45km (though only by 40 DPS compared to the rail fit) and past 45 the naga will do exactly 0 DPS.

That said, both the top naga and the blaster naga are kind of useless, because the ship is made of paper, so being within 45km (mega pulse optimal) is a bad idea.

The rail naga has literally the best damage projection in the game, and actually has some uses (albeit niche ones) compared to the torp naga, which had no uses at all.

Oh, and one last thing:

If you specced caldari, and didn't train hybrids, you didn't actually spec into caldari, you specced missiles. The naga is no less caldari-ish than it was when it had torps.