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LVL 4 insanity?
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Lady Go Diveher
Doomheim
#61 - 2011-09-09 21:42:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Lady Go Diveher
Tippia wrote:
Lady Go Diveher wrote:
You need to ask yourself the following question: how long, realistically, are the rats going to spend outside of 45km when I can do 1500m/s? It's not a question of where they spawn, it's a simple question of maintaining the range you want to be at.
Long enough, since you actually have to travel between them instead of switching targets instantly. Most missions with any amount of ships will have multiple spawn points and/or multiple waves, and the ships will try to spread out while you go after one of them. So those 30s come into play more than once, and each of those equates to roughly one “free” ship kill for a ship that doesn't have to make that trip.

1) Turn down missions that make you fly all over the place
2) Pwn all
3) ????
4) Profit

You've clearly never flown a mach in missions, as you seem to have no clue what you're talking about. Mission rats are SLOW AS **** and you are REALLY RATHER FAST. Once you've closed range (seconds) they aren't then flying off into the sunset. Most will orbit at any range between 10 and 50km (others are edge cases) meaning your time to intercept and get within 45km is either
a) tiny
b) non existent

EDIT: I'm not even accounting for the annoying defender missiles, thrown out by multiple rat types, that lower your DPS, or wasted volleys sent after ships that popped on the first volley.

Your entire argument seems to be built upon the rare edge cases where ABOUT HALF the DPS dealt at consistent range is better than loads of DPS at close range. Which naturally isn't true in most cases, and with a bit of mission selection, you can ensure that it is NEVER true. Just take a look through eve-survival. Go now and look. Where are these rats spawning at vast distances ... that aren't trying to CLOSE range on you from the start? Hint: when you see that mission, don't ******* accept it.

What's the other part of the "jack of all trades" platitude?

"Master of none"

Why you would advocate "different ships for different roles" and then pick the ONE mission running ship that epitomises "non spectacular, but always consistent" is completely beyond me.
Firebolt145
The Hatchery
RAZOR Alliance
#62 - 2011-09-09 21:47:23 UTC
Honestly the best way of putting it is: The CNR is consistent at always a level or two below the Mach. There are few situations where the CNR is not as bad as other situations compared to the Mach, but it's always worse.
stoicfaux
#63 - 2011-09-09 23:09:21 UTC  |  Edited by: stoicfaux
Firebolt145 wrote:
http://i.imgur.com/0Kom0.png

Much better numbers for the CNR, but still doesn't win it. Mach will always out-dps the CNR up till 53km on battleships regardless of transversal.


Lies, damn lies, and statistics. Let add more fuel to the fire.

First. That's a bad CNR fit. I've added a better fit at the end.

Second. Your target Mach is moving faster than the NPCs. Speed has a noticeable impact on the CNR's effective DPS. Gist battleships normally orbit at 175m/s. Your target mach is moving at 201m/s (according to my EFT.)

Thirdly. Sentry Drones. The CNR doesn't need to move to improve DPS, which means it can *sometimes* deploy drones. The extra DPS is significant.

With a 201m/s Mach versus a CNR with 3xBouncer IIs, the Mach outperforms the CNR out to ~36km.
With a 201m/s Mach versus a CNR, the Mach outperforms the CNR out to ~68km.

With a 175m/s Mach versus a CNR with 3xBouncer IIs, the Mach outperforms the CNR out to ~27km.
With a 175m/s Mach versus a CNR, the Mach outperforms the CNR out to ~45km.

Against a stationary Mach, versus the CNR plus 3x Bouncer IIs, the Mach outperforms the CNR out to ~22km.
Against a stationary Mach, versus the CNR, the Mach outperforms the CNR out to ~42km.


Quote:
Saying speed doesn't matter is being ignorant. Many missions require you to zoom zoom here or zoom zoom there. Who cares if you can kill everything if it takes you longer to get to the next pocket's gate?


Speed sometimes matters. You just need to finish killing the NPCs by the time you travel to the next gate. If you're still shooting NPCs by the time you get to the next gate, then you're moving fast enough.

There are plenty of missions where there are no gates, or you get dropped near or onto the next gate.


It's not a cut and dried decision as to which missions faster, the CNR or the Mach. The issues are:
* Mach has to move to optimize gun damage.
* CNR only has to travel to next gate.
* CNR has the option to sometimes deploy three sentries.
* However, the Mach can kill frigates with guns at range, whereas the CNR needs to use light drones to kill frigs.
* CNR can start engaging at enemies ~115km. Applying DPS sooner gives the CNR a significant DPS bump.
* edit: CNR has defenders, volley counting, and TP cycles working against it.
* Most importantly, a Vargur with RF ammo puts out 10% more DPS than your Mach. Neener! (4x RF gyro, TE II, 2xTC IIs w/Optimal, Burst Aerator II rig, Ambit I rig)

In conclusion, I fly a Vargur (and a Tengu) over a Golem or CNR when missioning against Angels.


[Raven Navy Issue, Level 4 - Liang]
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System
Signal Amplifier II

Caldari Navy X-Large Shield Booster
Explosion Dampening Field II
Invulnerability Field II
Shield Boost Amplifier II
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Cap Booster 800
Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron

Cruise Missile Launcher II, Devastator Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Devastator Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Devastator Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Devastator Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Devastator Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Devastator Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Devastator Fury Cruise Missile
Small Tractor Beam I

Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst I
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst I
Large Warhead Rigor Catalyst II


Bouncer II x3
Hobgoblin II x5

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Firebolt145
The Hatchery
RAZOR Alliance
#64 - 2011-09-09 23:55:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Firebolt145
Firstly regarding your Vargur: If the Mach I linked factions to RF ammo I get 1083 dps (no drones involved). A Vargur with your fitting and faction ammo gets 1054 dps, as well as 3.5km less falloff. Several of my corpmates use a burst aerator II rig as well (with an anti-em rig to use up the last 50 rig space) and once I slap that on the mach jumps to 1153dps. Neener! (Yes I know you have better tracking, but let's not digress too much. :P)

Now back to the Mach vs CNR. I am now using the fit you have linked. You are now using t2 missiles while I am sticking to my simple cheap t1 non-faction EMP. Whatever.

Regarding drones - the mach doesn't have to move either. My graphs have shown that without drones the Mach out-dpses the Raven up till 50km or so - meaning it can still deploy drones and sit still if it wishes to. (Side note - it can also deploy one more bouncer II than the CNR and still have space for 5x hobs.) This means that all your comparisons where the CNR is using drones and the Mach isn't are all irrelevant.

Now if we use only your math, with CNR using t2 missiles and Mach using simple t1 (I'm going to assume you're 100% right as I'm tired of doing more calculations and EFT graphs) we've calculated that the Mach is better up to 45km (no target is stationary, so let's ignore that). When I'm missioning, I find that I spend most of my time 25-35km from targets - this is without MWDing around etc. Also, all of these calculations have also been done with a Battleship - once we start shooting rats with smaller sig radiuses, the CNR falls so much further below while they barely affect the Mach's dps.


- * CNR can start engaging at enemies ~115km. Applying DPS sooner gives the CNR a significant DPS bump.

Only mission I can think this comes into play is Massive Attack.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#65 - 2011-09-10 00:05:10 UTC
Lady Go Diveher wrote:
You've clearly never flown a mach in missions, as you seem to have no clue what you're talking about. Mission rats are SLOW AS **** and you are REALLY RATHER FAST.
…and yet, you claim it takes 30s to get in range. Thus, that's one target less killed.
Quote:
Your entire argument seems to be built upon the rare edge cases where ABOUT HALF the DPS dealt at consistent range is better than loads of DPS at close range.
No, my argument is built on having one ship family that always performs the same, no matter the circumstances, compared to two different ones that fare better under specific cicrumstances.
Quote:
Why you would advocate "different ships for different roles" and then pick the ONE mission running ship that epitomises "non spectacular, but always consistent" is completely beyond me.
Probably because you didn't read what I actually wrote…

I said that if you want a one-ship-fits-all then the specialised ships will not do that as well as a jack-of-all-trades ship. So let's reverse that question: why would you advocate a ship that works for ONE role when looking for one that can handle them all? If you want specific ships for specific roles, you pick those, but they are not as universally and consistently useful as a non-specialist ship.

Oh, and if you're going to go the “then don't do the missions [that make your argument false]“ route, then fine: the CNR has no equal in the game because if you pick the right missions, the other ships can't engage at the ranges we're talking about… Roll
Firebolt145
The Hatchery
RAZOR Alliance
#66 - 2011-09-10 00:11:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Firebolt145
CNR might work for all missions in EVE, including amarr, gallente, etc, whereas there might be some missions in Amarr which the Mach is crap at. I don't know. But that is irrelevant - there is no Minmatar mission where the CNR outshines the Mach for example, and this is a much more appropriate comparison environment.

As for 30s to get in range - 30s is highly exaggerated, and during that time you're popping all the frigs anyway!

---

edit: I'm going to take a step back and look at why we're having this debate. Honestly, the difference between the CNR and the Mach is not a huge issue. In the end, if someone came up to me and asked for a nice missioning ship, I'd ask if he preferred missiles or projectiles and advise him appropriately. I just think it's wrong to say the Mach is only appropriate for a niche of missions and the CNR would be better for all the others.

Although obviously the Mach wins so much more once we take Blitzing into consideration, but lets not go there. :D
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#67 - 2011-09-10 00:26:28 UTC
Firebolt145 wrote:
CNR might work for all missions in EVE, including amarr, gallente, etc, whereas there might be some missions in Amarr which the Mach is crap at. I don't know. But that is irrelevant
How is it irrelevant when that what the issue to begin with? That the ravenkind are better one-ship-fits-all.

No, it's not irrelevant. It is, in fact, the entire point.
Nor Tzestu
Dos Pollos Hermanos
#68 - 2011-09-10 00:28:20 UTC
Lady Go Diveher wrote:



herp....
The Gollem does even less damage
derp....




Tell me your trolling right?
Firebolt145
The Hatchery
RAZOR Alliance
#69 - 2011-09-10 00:31:32 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Firebolt145 wrote:
CNR might work for all missions in EVE, including amarr, gallente, etc, whereas there might be some missions in Amarr which the Mach is crap at. I don't know. But that is irrelevant
How is it irrelevant when that what the issue to begin with? That the ravenkind are better one-ship-fits-all.

No, it's not irrelevant. It is, in fact, the entire point.

You said the Mach is only good for exp/kin missions. You did not say 'the Mach is only good in Minmatar, the CNR works everywhere'. There are many non-exp/kin missions in Minmatar and the Mach is still better at them than the CNR. This has been my entire point.
Wes Desto
Black Bag Operations
#70 - 2011-09-10 04:37:32 UTC
One your useing a ship that eats ammo. ammo=less profit
two your using a crappy ship. yes, that ship can hit 1200 dps at 40km with torps, but if you cant manage aggro why bother.

Three, in missions speed is the name of the game, the faster you can burn up missions the more lp, the more profit. You also have to use the right agents. a little research goes along ways in that area. and with all things location location location.

take that golem and toss it out the window, theres half a dozen ships that do as good or better. If your stuck on missles, look into a nighthawk. with perfect skills and +5 imps it can hit 800dps and speed tank. or a tengu, it does just as well, and tanks better. There no wrong way to do anything in eve, its just some people have tried, and others have proven that certain systems work.

My advise? get a nightmare. Almost no ammo, if you use faction crystals, does 1200-1800 dps with skills and imps, and handles any L4 if you manage your aggro. Best of luck
Kikusama
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#71 - 2011-09-10 11:10:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Kikusama
Nor Tzestu wrote:
Lady Go Diveher wrote:



herp....
The Gollem does even less damage
derp....




Tell me your trolling right?



This ^.^

I fly a Golem and the only silly thing about it is that it needs T2 launcher rigs and sometimes Javelin Torpedoes which (kind of) gimp the DPS. But the DPS...

Oh, maybe Lady Go was referring to the unhappy people that use a cruise golem. Yea, that's a bad idea.

I also fly a Tengu and I`m sincerely in love with this ship. But for anything else than blitz, it's useless in l4's. I tried shooting everything as I liked how it tanks and burned through 4000 Scourge furies by the time I reached the Angel Ex. bonus room Lol

Guns make the news. Science doesn't.
stoicfaux
#72 - 2011-09-10 14:56:56 UTC
Firebolt145 wrote:
Firstly regarding your Vargur: If the Mach I linked factions to RF ammo I get 1083 dps (no drones involved). A Vargur with your fitting and faction ammo gets 1054 dps, as well as 3.5km less falloff. Several of my corpmates use a burst aerator II rig as well (with an anti-em rig to use up the last 50 rig space) and once I slap that on the mach jumps to 1153dps. Neener! (Yes I know you have better tracking, but let's not digress too much. :P)


Your Mach isn't using RF ammo though. Let me clarify my point:

Mach + T1 ammo: 7 guns / .75 rof bonus = 9.33 effective guns
Vargur + RF ammo: 4 guns * 2 damage bonus * 1.15 RF ammo = 9.2 effective guns

A Vargur using RF ammo is the same as a Mach using T1 ammo. The Mach has a faster cycle time on the guns, but the Vargur gets a bit more falloff, IIRC.

Ammo Costs:
Using RF ammo on a Vargur is practical because it only has 4 guns. Looking at Angel Blockade with 20.8M in bounties, I fired 282 times (all guns grouped.) Eve-central says that the median sell price of RF fusion is 1,350.00 and the median buy price is 706.25.

282 * 4 * 1,350 = 1,522,800 isk in ammo costs / 20.8M bounties = 7.6% ammo costs at sell prices.
282 * 4 * 706.25 = 796,650 isk in ammo costs / 20.8M bounties = 3.8% ammo costs at buy prices.

However, bounties only comprised 7% of my income for that mission. (LP was 54% at 2050 isk/lp.) Ammo costs are chump change in the big picture.


When I get the chance later, I'll extrapolate the projected RF ammo costs for the Mach.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Firebolt145
The Hatchery
RAZOR Alliance
#73 - 2011-09-10 17:01:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Firebolt145
Yeah I know about ammo costing more for the Mach. That I fully agree is a HUGE plus point for the Vargur. However that is the -only- plus point for the Vargur (aside from being able to loot/salvage if you're into that, but that is inefficient missioning).

Mach has more falloff btw. Your fit, even with an Ambit rig while the Mach uses cap rigs, still has 3.2km less optimal/falloff. Also, a Vargur with your fit has absolutely 0 way to fit an MWD on it, meaning it is forced to use an AB (I actually can't seem to fit an AB on right now, not enough power) and chug along at 461m/s while the mach is zooming around at 1505m/s. Speed does matter.

Another plus point for the Mach, although slightly less applicable to 'vets', is that it is soooo much easier to train for. You only really need Gallente BS for it, which takes about 30 days to train all the way to V. Vargur needs AWU V, Minnie BS V, Energy Grid Upgrades V, etc etc. Just thought I should bring that in too. :)
Lady Go Diveher
Doomheim
#74 - 2011-09-10 20:53:06 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Lady Go Diveher wrote:
You've clearly never flown a mach in missions, as you seem to have no clue what you're talking about. Mission rats are SLOW AS **** and you are REALLY RATHER FAST.
…and yet, you claim it takes 30s to get in range. Thus, that's one target less killed.

Your obstinance in this matter is highly discouraging. 30seconds that you are doing less damage then the REST OF THE MISSION where you are doing more. Not no damage, since you're hitting them just fine at spawn range, just less.

For the rest of the mission you're doing a **** LOAD MORE.

You've also neatly glossed over the part where I said DO NOT DO THE MISSIONS WITH RATS SPAWNING AT 100km

Jesus. For someone who yips and yabs about LP efficiency you're pretty bad at selecting the right missions for your setup Roll
Umbriele
Natural Inventions
#75 - 2011-09-10 22:38:44 UTC
Trown away that stupid golem, there is a better ship to use.
IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome
#76 - 2011-09-11 01:03:53 UTC
Dantes Wolf wrote:
Is it me or are the lvl 4' completely insane atm?

Doing "the assualt" - lvl 4 in a 70% ressed golem, with 1300 HP healed 4 seconds and seriously, i can barely keep up - isnt this asking a bit much of people? seriously?

Having trained for 2 years and 3 months, flying the ultimate mission ship with elite skils and i have to struggle for it?

and wut about the loot? in the old days every wreck had stuff in em, now 3/4 are empty and when i do get loot, they contain T1 items, excuse me, but where is my income here?

Seriously, EVE is great yadda yadda yadda, but considering the time it takes, i'd better off mining veldspar with crap skills then doing these missions..

Fix maybe?

D.


If you want an unbreakable pve Golom you could try crystal implants.
Try blue pill booster if its profitable to do so.

Expensive - but doing this should easily double your repair rate or allow you to free up mid slots for other modules.

https://soundcloud.com/ibanezlaney
destiny2
Decaying Rocky Odious Non Evil Stupid Inane Nobody
Rogue Drone Recovery Syndicate
#77 - 2011-09-11 12:27:57 UTC
If your flying a golem. your resits should be much higher then 70%. since the golem gets a tractor beam bonus. try and lower the amount of dps. being fired at you by moveing. your dps is gonna suck if you dont have the right amount of tp's as you will not hit your targets for effective damage.

the ultimate mission ship has been changed since they came out with Strategic Cruisers Tengu. is now more favourable then the golem is.
stoicfaux
#78 - 2011-09-11 16:45:49 UTC
Lady Go Diveher wrote:

Your obstinance in this matter is highly discouraging. 30seconds that you are doing less damage then the REST OF THE MISSION where you are doing more. Not no damage, since you're hitting them just fine at spawn range, just less.

For the rest of the mission you're doing a **** LOAD MORE.


The concern is, if the Mach does 25% more damage than the CNR, then it takes the Mach 4 minutes to make up for the CNR's 30 second head start.


Quote:
You've also neatly glossed over the part where I said DO NOT DO THE MISSIONS WITH RATS SPAWNING AT 100km


Only drawback is that you need to be able to cherry pick missions which means being able to decline them more than once every four hours which means you need to rely on faction standings. Easily doable if you've taken the time to grind up your faction standings.


Anyway, IMO, a CNR in minnie space isn't a great choice. Angel battleships tend to be small enough and fast enough that you need good missile skills for Fury ammo to perform better than CN ammo. Plus Angel cruisers require switching to T1/CN ammo, which can add up if there are multiple mixed spawns to deal with. More importantly, discounting the CNR's drones, an HML Tengu can kill Angel battleships about as fast as a CNR can.

The CNR with Fury ammo really shines when slapping around big slow targets such a Guristas and Blood Raiders/Sansha.


More Numbers with Angel Extravaganza
AE is an ugly mission with 30-60km spawns and mixed chain spawns. For grins and giggles, I just did AE in a 1000 DPS Vargur with 69km falloff. I ran it like a Raven hull would, travel to next gate and sit, with no maneuvering to close the range on targets. Numbers:
* Vargur: 24:45 mission time
* Golem: 31:18 mission time
* Tengu: 33:45 mission time

According to my spreadsheet[1], an HML Tengu can kill Angel battleships within a few seconds of a Fury missile CNR. The Tengu has an easier time hitting Angel cruisers, so we're going to use the Tengu as a proxy for a no-sentry drone CNR. (If someone has a mission time for a T2 Cruise CNR running AE, no bonus room, please post the mission time.)

The Vargur ran AE nine minutes faster than the Tengu (and 6.5 minutes faster than a Golem.) So unless the CNR's three sentry drones can make up nine minutes of time, or if you consistently run missions with extreme range spawns, I don't see the CNR as being competitive against the Mach/Vargur in missions with 60km engagement envelopes.

[1] http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1151130 The new forums throw a bbcode error if I make the word "spreadsheet" a clickable link. Roll

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Istvann
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#79 - 2011-09-11 17:03:59 UTC
I am just now reading this thread, and while it may be somewhat old, I still felt the need to respond.

I did The Assault yesterday and didn't have a bit of trouble. In fact, I haven't found a lvl 4 mission, in quite some time, that I have had trouble sith. I think the op should post his fit and API and lets see where the problem might really be.
Nor Tzestu
Dos Pollos Hermanos
#80 - 2011-09-11 17:04:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Nor Tzestu
[quote=destiny2]If your flying a golem. your resits should be much higher then 70%. since the golem gets a tractor beam bonus. try and lower the amount of dps. being fired at you by moveing. your dps is gonna suck if you dont have the right amount of tp's as you will not hit your targets for effective damage.

the ultimate mission ship has been changed since they came out with Strategic Cruisers Tengu. is now more favourable then the golem is. [/quote

I love the Tengu as much as anyone. That said this isn't about being in one optimal ship. The Tengu is better for some things, the Golem for others. Just like the Mach and nightmare are better for others. You all can keep fighting over how other people play and what they like to use though. We are within inches of tears and more epic emo 4 page posts cause someone said the CNR is a solid ship for a one size fits all mission boat. And if I had to run just one mission ship, it's a Golem.


http://eve.battleclinic.com/loadout/21813-Golem-that-actually-has-TP-039-s.html

Check out the videos in this then tell me the mach/nightmare is so much better than a Golem. You can't, and do you know why? It simply isn't when you learn how to fit a ship. In fact the Golem out DPS's either ship out to 64km and makes you more money. If any of you spent half the time learning things instead of repeating your own closely held dogmas and meme's you might find entire new things to do rather than forum/eft warrior and sticking your foot in your mouth for all to see. I am sure some will be horrified this guy DPS's stuff as hard as anything you can fly while he is salvaging and looting and making more money than you in your Mach or Nightmare but so be it. I should also note he won't be volleying frigates as he uses DRONES to wipe them out like someone with half a brain would. Just watch and learn what an OPTIMAL mission fit is like and how to use it for maximum isk/hr.