EVE General Discussion

FTFY.

No, farming = deflation because LP is an ISK sink.

You're wrong. It is pretty clear that this is complete rubbish and that you have just 'made up' an interpretation of the facts of this thread in order to support your argument. This is the worst type of rhetoric - not only is it dishonest but it manages to be riddled with logical fallacies at the same time. Even if you were right about those who object to your views, the fact that they are engaged in certain actions would not do anything to undermine the validity of their views.

So, you stand corrected.

Not sure why my post got deleted when I was agreeing with the OP and solidifying his point.

ANYWAY..... this cloak/stab/orbit crap has got to go.
In DUST, if you're hacking something, and you run away before you're finished, because the enemy is approaching, you lose all progress. Cloaking or bailing from the beacon in space should have the same effect.
Don't want to lose your beacon and miss out on your LP? Bring a fleet, and fit your ships to put up a fight. It's really not that bad, guys. In fact, if you give it a chance, you'll find that shooting other players is actually a lot of fun.

I remember a time when FW kids were the ones you could really count on when you were looking for a fight, in lowsec.... bring those days back, and make them better than ever.

I keep saying, give them incentives for participating in PvP rather than doing everything in their power to avoid it, and make lowsec absolutely terrifying to the truly risk-averse, to the point where they want nothing to do with it.

This all changes if the defenders must be in the complex to roll the timer back. You can't just chase the attackers off by appearing in local, so you have to undock.

If there's no reason to defend, pilots will go do offensive plexing instead.

Quite the contrary, a timer roll-back will increase value of the defenders time to a level closer to that of the attacker.

Keep in mind that the defender is currently burdened with a permanent -25% LP gain from plexing, on top of that you have to account for the contested level and tier. Attacker gets full payout, only affected by tier modifier .. that discrepancy is what caused the honey-bee behaviour of farming alts, they don't care which plex they sit in because they will always come out ahead since every minute they spend means the opposition has to spend 1 minute x multiple modifiers.
I know that only concerns LP, but since VP gain is a static number (ie. same for any size plex), the LP/minute measurement is the best way of visualising the issue .. same reason why the honey-bees generally don't bother with any of the larger plexes.

Side note: Slightly disturbed by you saying that you dock up if you should have some time to kill though .. why not use those five minutes killing and bleeding? Whole point of the campaign to introduce timer-rollbacks is to give you MORE time to pew as honey-bees who stay in a system with a defender will make 0 LP as roll-back timer counters the time he spends if he choses to run rather than fight ----> honey bee leaves system when confronted, letting you roam instead of orbiting buttons.

You are quite right that the more perspectives we add, the better the end result is likely to be. This thing started with people wanting actual auto-run timers or outright timer resets, just shows how "far" it come .. slow but inexorable.

IbanezLaney, I agree with Veshta here. Why dock up?

The whole point of why I want timer rollbacks is that a farmer forces me to sit in a plex to undo his work where no PVP will occur since the farmer will not fight. If I chase him away, his work slowly rolls back as if I was sitting in the plex. Now because of timer rollbacks, I can be out looking for another target that will fight or baiting myself in a plex where I will either get a fight or make more than 5LP for completing the plex.

Perhaps so, but you have no valid objection either.

I guess we are just going to have to disagree on the impact farming FW for isk has on system/WZ control.

Most of us in FW that are participating in this thread (from more than one corp and from more than one faction) agree that the farming is an issue. Those not in FW are saying there is not issue.

Those taking a position that farming is a doing more damage than good to the FW WZ are of the mind that the extremely low risk/reward of the current mechanics encourages and enables farming practices that have a disproportionately large impact on system/WZ control.

There is nothing wrong with flipping systems. I would say that we all encourage it. Just don't set it up so that flipping a system is predominately determined by whose faction the farmers that are abusing the isk making potential of FW are currently working for.

The comment about Gallente FW being upset at TEST joining Caldari FW is so far off base I don't really have a good way to address it other than we were happy and still are happy that TEST is in FW. If you are thinking that this is the core of our argument then your entire response is invalid.

Your entire argument against our concern is you saying we have no valid concern. By that logic I can shoot down nearly anyone's concern regardless of what it is.

Having thought things over a bit, and looked at the potential for unintended consequences, I oppose timer rollbacks. I would support the idea of dual timers, but even that can be exploited to some degree - though far less so, and far less on a continuing basis.

Consider this scenario: GalMil wants to conquer Innia, again. We start plexing it up, and CalMil being the dirty dirty blobbers they are, start sending 2-3x our numbers into every plex. If the plexes have timer reset mechanics, all they have to do is force us out once every 10-20 minutes to make it literally impossible to make any progress. We wouldn't be able to use our normal tactics of forcing them to be present in force in multiple plexes at a time - because the reset mechanics would mean they just have to force us out of range of the button. Even accelerated mechanics would give them too much of an advantage.

My personal opinion is that FW is a prototype "farms and fields" style system of control, and people aren't used to dealing with it. And to be honest, having a system at 20% contested due to stabbed farmers is a total non-issue. Moreover, farmers cannot seriously contest any area that is actively patrolled - even under existing mechanics.

FW system control is, and in my opinion should be, determined by how much effort you are willing to expend to patrol and defend that area. Stretch too far, and it's too much work and too easy to flip. Keep it small, and there's no way they can contest or flip it. Nisuwa was never really in danger, and even with all the pressure on Eha / Oicx / Vlill, it was weeks before they were able to flip Oicx - and the other two never pushed beyond the high 30s in spite of all the pressure.

In other words, as far as I can tell, things are working as intended. No real need for changes to the plexing mechanics.

I would support a decrease in the LP rewards for plexing, but that would exacerbate the income potential differences between the missions available for each faction. Minmatar and Caldari missions are far easier than Amarr and Gallente, and with reduced plexing income we'd be shooting ourselves in the foot to some degree.

Besides, if you want to talk risk / reward, look at the new DUST bombardments. Can do it with even less skills and with less impact from kitting WCS, with as much if not more LP per hour if you work it right.