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Balancing Feedback: Capital Ships

First post First post
Author
Rubix Khamsi
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#481 - 2011-11-22 03:52:36 UTC
Ganthrithor wrote:
Lol, there was a nice hurricanes vs 10 titans and a giant pile of nyxes fight today. Guess what killed all the hurricanes? Hint: it wasn't overpowered supercarrier drones.

Hint: They are nerfing that too...
Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#482 - 2011-11-22 04:10:57 UTC
Ganthrithor wrote:
Lol, there was a nice hurricanes vs 10 titans and a giant pile of nyxes fight today. Guess what killed all the hurricanes? Hint: it wasn't overpowered supercarrier drones.

After the patch they can't DD subcaps, and can't be remotely boosted.

Many supercarrier pilots are going to stay, some might go for a Titan, a few will firesale.

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.

Demon Azrakel
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#483 - 2011-11-22 04:16:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Demon Azrakel
Demon Azrakel wrote:
Chimera. CPU. +10%-20%. Now.


Since it was not going to be read where I posted it.

[Archon, WH Triage]
Capital Inefficient Armor Repair Unit
Capital Inefficient Armor Repair Unit
Corpum A-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
True Sansha Capacitor Power Relay
True Sansha Capacitor Power Relay
True Sansha Capacitor Power Relay
True Sansha Capacitor Power Relay

Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II

Triage Module I
Capital Coaxial Regenerative Projector
Capital Coaxial Regenerative Projector
Capital Coaxial Regenerative Projector
Capital Murky Energy Transmitter I

Large Capacitor Control Circuit II
Large Capacitor Control Circuit II
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I

Standard WH fit, not too expensive, right? Fits easily. You do not even have to fit all of those expensive modules for the fit to work; full meta 0 t2 fit works just fine. Feel free to toss the new t2 triage module on there. For higher DPS pvp when the enemies don't bring Bhaalgorns (in someone elses wormhole, for instance, and when not engaging R&K, AHARM, or any other big WH groups), bring two B-type EANMs instead of the one A-type. Fitting how you want, you have the CPU and PG to do ANYTHING with the archon (other than shield tank it. I guess triple rep is out, but you were an idiot for expecting that...).

Now the Caldari Equivalent:

[Chimera, Triage WH]
True Sansha Capacitor Power Relay
True Sansha Capacitor Power Relay
True Sansha Capacitor Power Relay
True Sansha Capacitor Power Relay

Capital Neutron Saturation Injector I
Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field
Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field
True Sansha Cap Recharger
True Sansha Cap Recharger
True Sansha Cap Recharger
True Sansha Cap Recharger

Capital Murky Shield Screen Transmitter I
Capital Murky Shield Screen Transmitter I
Capital Murky Shield Screen Transmitter I
Triage Module I
Capital Murky Energy Transmitter I

Large Capacitor Control Circuit II
Large Capacitor Control Circuit II
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I

Fits by 4.25 CPU. Note all of the faction / meta 2 modules on there that have lower fitting requirements. You need them to do this. You need 5 CPU to fit the new t2 triage. Want to add something like a boost amp to that tank because no one is really neuting you? If you use a 5% CPU implant, you can fit a Pith C shield boost amp, and still not shoehorn that T2 triage module on there. You can do whatever you want with an archon, but hardly anything with a chimera.

5% CPU boost would make this ship less ******** to fit tbqfh.

EDIT: actually, shield Archon is not out of the question...As long as you run remote armor. Slightly less cap regen and base tank than the armor Archon, but the tank overheats for more. Also, it tanks more than the chimera with the fit posted above for slightly less (~20 or 30) cap regen. I would run it for ***** and giggles, but I have to choose either armor or shields boosts (this is a lie, my booster alt can run the resist bonus to shields and all three to armor at the same time; one would be less though because of which afk T3 i was in. I am also too lazy to grab my boost tengu given that I already have a properly fit 4 link nigh-unprobeable legion; the tengu is not that great.)
Svennig
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#484 - 2011-11-22 06:27:10 UTC
Demon Azrakel wrote:
Demon Azrakel wrote:
Chimera. CPU. +10%-20%. Now.


Since it was not going to be read where I posted it.

[Archon, WH Triage]
Capital Inefficient Armor Repair Unit
Capital Inefficient Armor Repair Unit
Corpum A-Type Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
True Sansha Capacitor Power Relay
True Sansha Capacitor Power Relay
True Sansha Capacitor Power Relay
True Sansha Capacitor Power Relay

Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II

Triage Module I
Capital Coaxial Regenerative Projector
Capital Coaxial Regenerative Projector
Capital Coaxial Regenerative Projector
Capital Murky Energy Transmitter I

Large Capacitor Control Circuit II
Large Capacitor Control Circuit II
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I

Standard WH fit, not too expensive, right? Fits easily. You do not even have to fit all of those expensive modules for the fit to work; full meta 0 t2 fit works just fine. Feel free to toss the new t2 triage module on there. For higher DPS pvp when the enemies don't bring Bhaalgorns (in someone elses wormhole, for instance, and when not engaging R&K, AHARM, or any other big WH groups), bring two B-type EANMs instead of the one A-type. Fitting how you want, you have the CPU and PG to do ANYTHING with the archon (other than shield tank it. I guess triple rep is out, but you were an idiot for expecting that...).

Now the Caldari Equivalent:

[Chimera, Triage WH]
True Sansha Capacitor Power Relay
True Sansha Capacitor Power Relay
True Sansha Capacitor Power Relay
True Sansha Capacitor Power Relay

Capital Neutron Saturation Injector I
Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field
Caldari Navy Invulnerability Field
True Sansha Cap Recharger
True Sansha Cap Recharger
True Sansha Cap Recharger
True Sansha Cap Recharger

Capital Murky Shield Screen Transmitter I
Capital Murky Shield Screen Transmitter I
Capital Murky Shield Screen Transmitter I
Triage Module I
Capital Murky Energy Transmitter I

Large Capacitor Control Circuit II
Large Capacitor Control Circuit II
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I

Fits by 4.25 CPU. Note all of the faction / meta 2 modules on there that have lower fitting requirements. You need them to do this. You need 5 CPU to fit the new t2 triage. Want to add something like a boost amp to that tank because no one is really neuting you? If you use a 5% CPU implant, you can fit a Pith C shield boost amp, and still not shoehorn that T2 triage module on there. You can do whatever you want with an archon, but hardly anything with a chimera.

5% CPU boost would make this ship less ******** to fit tbqfh.

EDIT: actually, shield Archon is not out of the question...As long as you run remote armor. Slightly less cap regen and base tank than the armor Archon, but the tank overheats for more. Also, it tanks more than the chimera with the fit posted above for slightly less (~20 or 30) cap regen. I would run it for ***** and giggles, but I have to choose either armor or shields boosts (this is a lie, my booster alt can run the resist bonus to shields and all three to armor at the same time; one would be less though because of which afk T3 i was in. I am also too lazy to grab my boost tengu given that I already have a properly fit 4 link nigh-unprobeable legion; the tengu is not that great.)


This is interesting. I didn't realise that the chimera had fitting problems with such a system. I've posted earlier in this thread about the difficulty running a four-rack shield setup with the nidhoggur due to CPU fitting issues.

So, I think I'm going to disagree with you slightly - the chimera doesn't need to change. The CPU requirements of capital shield mods need to be reduced by, say, 25 CPU to bring them to 150.
Headerman
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#485 - 2011-11-22 06:43:17 UTC
Hmm... Comparing a BPO of a Nyx on the Test server Vs TQ... it appears the Nyx will be more expensive to build. Can anyone else confirm?

BP alterations are also for other SCs and the dreads

Australian Fanfest Event https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=90062

Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#486 - 2011-11-22 07:26:42 UTC
It's gonna take more than removing links from titans to keep their guns from blapping subcabs, hth. The patch is a step in the right direction but titans are still gonna rip BS gangs etc to shreds.

e: though I agree that the DD change has important ramifications for HICs in particular.
Soon Shin
Scarlet Weather Rhapsody
#487 - 2011-11-22 08:17:27 UTC
Ganthrithor wrote:
It's gonna take more than removing links from titans to keep their guns from blapping subcabs, hth. The patch is a step in the right direction but titans are still gonna rip BS gangs etc to shreds.

e: though I agree that the DD change has important ramifications for HICs in particular.


You'll need a webber and a painter to pin down a bs for a titan to kill. You're gonna have to nerf webbers and painters more which will adversely affect many aspects of pvp.

If you nerf the tracking of capital guns even more then it will have trouble hitting moving supercaps.

When you're in a BS around a titan you better start moving. Pilots need to fly their ships.
Shaak Ti
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#488 - 2011-11-22 08:34:21 UTC
TinkerHell wrote:

I wont be mixing, I will just have 20 fighters and 15 bombers in my Nyx, and when a capital shows up ill just switch 5 fighters out of my corp hanger for the 5 bombers ill have stored there and have 20 bombers and 15 fighters instead.....and it will take me a whole of 10 seconds to switch out my drones. God bless 50km3 corp hangers, which should be renamed to be Secondary Drone Bay.


This is the point. The nerf is only the CCP's response to whines, that only does SC pilots' life more tedious with absurd micromanaging. CCP invented the Drone Bandwidth to allow bigger dronebays in several ships and make more flexible gameplay, Why this nonsense changes with supercarriers then? looks like another punish to veteran players to satisfy the new playerbase...
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#489 - 2011-11-22 11:55:28 UTC
Being forced to make a choice is exactly what Eve has always been about and for a few years players have been spoiled too much... Players expect to fit the largest guns with ease, expect to microwarp around constantly without cap mods fitted and permatanking the ratting ships has become the norm.

I blaim mostly rigs for powergrid and cap without consequences, but you guys shouldn't come crawling because you don't get your deepest fantasies fulfilled....

Pinky
Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#490 - 2011-11-22 12:10:40 UTC
So I ask again, why do you need more than 15 fighters?

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.

Shaak Ti
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#491 - 2011-11-22 12:23:07 UTC
Pinky Denmark wrote:
Being forced to make a choice is exactly what Eve has always been about and for a few years players have been spoiled too much... Players expect to fit the largest guns with ease, expect to microwarp around constantly without cap mods fitted and permatanking the ratting ships has become the norm.

I blaim mostly rigs for powergrid and cap without consequences, but you guys shouldn't come crawling because you don't get your deepest fantasies fulfilled....

Pinky


Don't compare regular ships with super capitals, they are very different. While you can make changes or restock a hurricane very easily, a supercarrier is a different story.

The new changes, renders supercarriers in an analog of dreadnoughts (only useful to deal high DPS at large targets). With a weapon limited by room and very easily destroyed, this nerf only makes more boring and time consuming the ship management.

Remember, a supercarrier have many drawbacks that are not being taken into account:

-Can't dock
-Can be built in sov systems only
-Vulnerable while being built
-Expensive
-No insurance
-Character stuck

Simply removing stuff should not be a solution for balance.
Phunnestyle
Doomheim
#492 - 2011-11-22 13:50:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Phunnestyle
Vincent Gaines wrote:
So I ask again, why do you need more than 15 fighters?



Nyx is the only super able to have 35,so your quote is narrow minded just in those regards,as you would be refering to the other supers as 10Fighters GTFO of here troll
1stly Supers will have optimal amount of fighters due to being intercepted by Subcaps, it happens often enough now, but after the patch alot more Subcap fleets will have the ballz & new compositions to play with to go ballz deep on Supers.
2ndly Fighters are easy enough to take out in various ways. You your self should know that MM has a good bomber wing (the only good thing they have) and 1 of the focus's especially after the patch is going to be to take out Fighters. Alot of alliances if they havn't already are making bomber wings. At least with 20 Fighters you have the numbers out there for a majority to survive and still be somewhat effective.

In the Original patch comments, when some clueless noobs posted about decreasing the drone bay, there wasn't any serious opposition to it. The reason for that is beacuse no1 thought that such stupid comments would be listened to by CCP so didn't think anything of it. Rediculious to think that it was changed & we are now trying to sort the mess out.
Thats what happens when you listen to people who have no idea of the mechanics in question, but only wish to pass biased opinions of how they can make a super as useless as possible to benifit there particular aspect of game play. Listen to the Super pilots, they deserve the benifit of the doubt as alot of us experience every aspect subcap/capital & supercapital alike.

A lion cub wouldn't learn to hunt & kill from a snail, the snail has no experience or knowledge involving those regards.
This analogy applys to Supers, why should those who have no experience or knowledge of mechanics in question have a resounding say over Super pilots. Doesn't make any sence!

Need room for 20 Fighter Bombers & 20 Fighters in drone bay CCP <-- plz read & plz do.

P.S. vincent your either a troll or an absoulte joke, either way I like I think every1 else see no reason to reply to your rubbish again.
Svennig
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#493 - 2011-11-22 14:07:47 UTC
Phunnestyle wrote:
Vincent Gaines wrote:
So I ask again, why do you need more than 15 fighters?


1stly Supers will have optimal amount of fighters due to being intercepted by Subcaps, it happens often enough now, but after the patch alot more Subcap fleets will have the ballz & new compositions to play with to go ballz deep on Supers.


By that logic, dreadnaughts should fit battleship guns so that when they encounter a battleship fleet they can take them on.

Or you could realise that anti-subcap operations is not the role of either dreadnoughts OR supercarriers - it's something you should be leaving to your subcap fleet?
Venustas Blue
Spartan Industries
#494 - 2011-11-22 14:20:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Venustas Blue
Svennig wrote:
Phunnestyle wrote:
Vincent Gaines wrote:
So I ask again, why do you need more than 15 fighters?


1stly Supers will have optimal amount of fighters due to being intercepted by Subcaps, it happens often enough now, but after the patch alot more Subcap fleets will have the ballz & new compositions to play with to go ballz deep on Supers.


By that logic, dreadnaughts should fit battleship guns so that when they encounter a battleship fleet they can take them on.

Or you could realise that anti-subcap operations is not the role of either dreadnoughts OR supercarriers - it's something you should be leaving to your subcap fleet?


Well thats wrong, DC are about the only group of terrible players in EVE that this could really effectively apply to,as they are the only ones with such massive 1500-2000+ man blobs etc.

Every other alliance/coalitions would not just be able to rely on lets say there core function of MB 150-300 Subcap pilots in the majority of cases.

You cannot compare Dreads to Supers, you are trying to compare chalk to cheese, wich is not logic darling im afraid. Dreads are a fraction of the price and as it is they have been buffed to supply more oppertunitys and roles to these dread alts/pilots wich is good.
But in no way should you try to make your self believe that becuase a 22bill+ ship has some capabilities to defend it self from Subcaps, that it gives the right for a dred of 2bill to have the same capabilities. But then again your insight is mildly amuzing & funny.
SMT008
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#495 - 2011-11-22 15:07:47 UTC
Phunnestyle wrote:

A lion cub wouldn't learn to hunt & kill from a snail, the snail has no experience or knowledge involving those regards.
This analogy applys to Supers, why should those who have no experience or knowledge of mechanics in question have a resounding say over Super pilots. Doesn't make any sence!


Will say it again :

It's like asking a guy what his salary should be. He'll tell you 12 bazillions because we all want our best toys buffed.

If you ask Superpilots how to nerf supers, they'll tell you how to nerf supers THE LEAST.

Because they own one, and they won't screw themselves up.
Kerdrak
Querry Moon
#496 - 2011-11-22 15:14:17 UTC
SMT008 wrote:


Will say it again :

It's like asking a guy what his salary should be. He'll tell you 12 bazillions because we all want our best toys buffed.

If you ask Superpilots how to nerf supers, they'll tell you how to nerf supers THE LEAST.

Because they own one, and they won't screw themselves up.


With that logic, if you as a guy who doesn't own a supercap how to nerf it, he will say: REMOVE IT. And if we look at the number of supercap pilots vs the number of non-supercap pilots (like yourself) it's easy to preview how CCP gonna behave...
Vincent Gaines
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#497 - 2011-11-22 15:17:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincent Gaines
Phunnestyle wrote:

Nyx is the only super able to have 35,so your quote is narrow minded just in those regards,as you would be refering to the other supers as 10Fighters GTFO of here troll
1stly Supers will have optimal amount of fighters due to being intercepted by Subcaps, it happens often enough now, but after the patch alot more Subcap fleets will have the ballz & new compositions to play with to go ballz deep on Supers.


Holy ****.

Everyone read this. ""if it happens enough now, but after the patch alot [sic] more subcap fleets will have the ballz... to go ballz deep on supers"

No. Way. It's almost like that's what *should* happen.


Quote:
2ndly Fighters are easy enough to take out in various ways. You your self should know that MM has a good bomber wing (the only good thing they have) and 1 of the focus's especially after the patch is going to be to take out Fighters. Alot of alliances if they havn't already are making bomber wings. At least with 20 Fighters you have the numbers out there for a majority to survive and still be somewhat effective.

In the Original patch comments, when some clueless noobs posted about decreasing the drone bay, there wasn't any serious opposition to it. The reason for that is beacuse no1 thought that such stupid comments would be listened to by CCP so didn't think anything of it. Rediculious to think that it was changed & we are now trying to sort the mess out.
Thats what happens when you listen to people who have no idea of the mechanics in question, but only wish to pass biased opinions of how they can make a super as useless as possible to benifit there particular aspect of game play. Listen to the Super pilots, they deserve the benifit of the doubt as alot of us experience every aspect subcap/capital & supercapital alike.


Grow some balls and post with your main. If you're going to mention any of MM's tactics or try to question what I know I want to know where you stand. If you're going to try to insult me or call me a troll when I'm posting AS ME, then man up and do the same.

No, Listen very closely. You are still stuck in the mindset that a mothership is a solopwnmobile. You want to have things to address EVERY SINGLE incident that puts you in danger. Well now you have that vulnerability. Just as regular caps can get neuted and find themselves dead you can now find your DPS bombed.

And again, all your hypothetical nonsense fails to include that you lack any support. If you are in a fleet of nothing but supercaps and a bomber fleet bombs all your drones, GOOD FOR THEM. You were stupid to not have dictors on the perimeter. You didn't have cruisers or even frigates to fastlock and get rid of the bombers.

Or you were too stupid and recalled them as soon as a bomber uncloaked.

Either way, you want CCP to keep you from having mistakes. You want CCP to bubblewrap you to keep your super being caught with its pants down when it does something ballsy and ********.


Quote:
Thats what happens when you listen to people who have no idea of the mechanics in question, but only wish to pass biased opinions of how they can make a super as useless as possible to benifit there particular aspect of game play. Listen to the Super pilots, they deserve the benifit of the doubt as alot of us experience every aspect subcap/capital & supercapital alike.

A lion cub wouldn't learn to hunt & kill from a snail, the snail has no experience or knowledge involving those regards.
This analogy applys to Supers, why should those who have no experience or knowledge of mechanics in question have a resounding say over Super pilots. Doesn't make any sence!


You know you're losing an argument when you start with the logical fallacies.

\What makes you think I don't have a supercarrier, or never did? Because I don't agree with having it stupidly overpowered?

Not a diplo. 

The above post was edited for spelling.

Sigras
Conglomo
#498 - 2011-11-22 19:17:46 UTC
Does anyone know if theyre removing the capital drone bays from the Titan and Dreadnaught BPOs?
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#499 - 2011-11-22 20:01:03 UTC
CCP should do something to make supercarriers more useful outside of direct combat since now more than ever they'll be relegated to unopposed structure shooting unless some new functionality is added.

I want them to make superscarriers into awesome combat logistics hubs-- triple the SMA / CHA / Fuel Bay capacities and add "facilities" that let them refine dropped loot (scrapmetal processing) and build combat consumables like ammo, paste, drones, anchorable bubbles, warp disrupt probes, scripts, etc. Also maybe a repair bay to rep burned-out modules or something... could give SCs a cool new role.
Sameyaa
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#500 - 2011-11-22 21:35:48 UTC
Phunnestyle wrote:
Vincent Gaines wrote:
So I ask again, why do you need more than 15 fighters?



Nyx is the only super able to have 35,so your quote is narrow minded just in those regards,as you would be refering to the other supers as 10Fighters GTFO of here troll
1stly Supers will have optimal amount of fighters due to being intercepted by Subcaps, it happens often enough now, but after the patch alot more Subcap fleets will have the ballz & new compositions to play with to go ballz deep on Supers.
2ndly Fighters are easy enough to take out in various ways. You your self should know that MM has a good bomber wing (the only good thing they have) and 1 of the focus's especially after the patch is going to be to take out Fighters. Alot of alliances if they havn't already are making bomber wings. At least with 20 Fighters you have the numbers out there for a majority to survive and still be somewhat effective.

In the Original patch comments, when some clueless noobs posted about decreasing the drone bay, there wasn't any serious opposition to it. The reason for that is beacuse no1 thought that such stupid comments would be listened to by CCP so didn't think anything of it. Rediculious to think that it was changed & we are now trying to sort the mess out.
Thats what happens when you listen to people who have no idea of the mechanics in question, but only wish to pass biased opinions of how they can make a super as useless as possible to benifit there particular aspect of game play. Listen to the Super pilots, they deserve the benifit of the doubt as alot of us experience every aspect subcap/capital & supercapital alike.

A lion cub wouldn't learn to hunt & kill from a snail, the snail has no experience or knowledge involving those regards.
This analogy applys to Supers, why should those who have no experience or knowledge of mechanics in question have a resounding say over Super pilots. Doesn't make any sence!

Need room for 20 Fighter Bombers & 20 Fighters in drone bay CCP <-- plz read & plz do.

P.S. vincent your either a troll or an absoulte joke, either way I like I think every1 else see no reason to reply to your rubbish again.



PERFECTLY said mate, +100.