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Solution to the supercap war: jump drive cooldown
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Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2013-12-04 15:37:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
The problem isn't that some rich alliances have 100+ titans, the problem is that they can bring every titan to every major fight. What needs to be done is to make it take more time to move them around.

I'd like to see all jump drives have exactly the same range so that everyone can jump together regardless of capital ship type and skill level, but different capital ships should have a different cooldown on the jumps. Here's what I'm thinking:

Carrier/Rorqual: 2 hours
Dreadnought: 4 hours
Supercarrier: 8 hours
Titan: 18 hours

edit: could be two separate cooldowns instead of one, ie. you jump a dreadnought into a POS bash, your first jump is on 4 hour cooldown. 1 hour later the POS goes into reinforce, you jump out and place the second jump on cooldown. You can jump again in 3 hours.

Alternate method:Each ship has multiple usable jump drive cooldowns that each reset in 24 hours. The number of cooldowns depends on the ship. How you use them is up to you.
Carrier/Rorqual: 8 cooldowns
Dreadnought: 6 cooldowns
Supercarrier: 4 cooldowns
Titan: 2 cooldowns

This method slows movement even further over time, while allowing more movement all at once.

Time dilation would not affect the cooldown of the jump drives.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Bobby Frutt
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2013-12-04 15:40:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Bobby Frutt
I personally want to see more supers and titans. I want to see them be more dominant on the battlefield, absolutely molesting other cap ships in it's vicinity. Against sub-cap I don't have a problem with the current mechanics, except that you shouldn't be able to lock one down with a point unless your strength is up the ying-yang (say 10).

Thus any changes that make them less used than already, I say no. Perhaps Dreads and Carriers could be toned down a tad, somehow.
Sh0plifter
Underworld Property Accounting Partnership
#3 - 2013-12-04 15:45:34 UTC
Stuff will rarely get used, to include carriers and dreads. Being able to jump them in but then not jump back out? I can see maybe a 1 hour CD on the Jump Drives for supercapitals which then will keep rapid movement movement to the other side of EvE. In the same aspect though. The Attacker will have the upperhand in every fight because they WILL mobilize all their assets over a period of 1-2 days to prestage. In your time frame will make them prestage in 6-7 days which will then create an even worse scenerio making fights completely 1 sidedversus the "Do we have the assets to counter this online? Can we get them online?" that happen now.
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2013-12-04 15:49:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
Howabout a double-jump cooldown? Two jumps with separate cooldowns. You can jump in and back out, then you have to wait. If you jump in and stay for a while, you can jump back out and not be stranded at home for as long.

I don't have a problem with these ships being powerful on the field, as long as that power doesn't come in the form of them being able to shoot other smaller ships too easily. What really needs to happen is when the solution becomes "bring more", the answer should either be "they're all out of range", or "we brought em early for this war and now a huge fleet is flanking us"

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#5 - 2013-12-04 16:44:11 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
The problem isn't that some rich alliances have 100+ titans, the problem is that they can bring every titan to every major fight. What needs to be done is to make it take more time to move them around.

I'd like to see all jump drives have exactly the same range so that everyone can jump together regardless of capital ship type and skill level, but different capital ships should have a different cooldown on the jumps. Here's what I'm thinking:

Carrier/Rorqual: 2 hours
Dreadnought: 4 hours
Supercarrier: 8 hours
Titan: 18 hours



Which means that nobody will ever use caps in combat...
HiddenPorpoise
Jarlhettur's Drop
United Federation of Conifers
#6 - 2013-12-04 16:53:27 UTC
Then the advantage goes even further to whoever has more caps and can put them in more places at once.
Karma Codolle
Chimera Research and Development
#7 - 2013-12-05 07:49:15 UTC
OP-someone who has never used a cap before.


Seriously, if cooldown was 2 hours i'd never fly one. Moving days and deployments would be hell.

"Ok fleet we jumped to our 1st way point, take a 4 hour break while we wait for cool down so we can continue our move"


There's nothing wrong with supercaps and caps they don't need to be toned down they need to be buffed and classes of ships need to be introduced as a go between for smaller entities to have a better position on the battlefield.

To be a battle ready cap battle takes an immensely long time. If your corp/alliance isn't already ready it's going to be almost half a year to a year before you could attempt to take space and by that time you would of moved on to something else before your pilots got bored.

Solution -> buff caps and supers and introduce a go between caps and BS to take on caps and above

as well as expand capital class
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2013-12-05 09:52:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
Karma Codolle wrote:
OP-someone who has never used a cap before.


Seriously, if cooldown was 2 hours i'd never fly one. Moving days and deployments would be hell.

"Ok fleet we jumped to our 1st way point, take a 4 hour break while we wait for cool down so we can continue our move"


There's nothing wrong with supercaps and caps they don't need to be toned down they need to be buffed and classes of ships need to be introduced as a go between for smaller entities to have a better position on the battlefield.

To be a battle ready cap battle takes an immensely long time. If your corp/alliance isn't already ready it's going to be almost half a year to a year before you could attempt to take space and by that time you would of moved on to something else before your pilots got bored.

Solution -> buff caps and supers and introduce a go between caps and BS to take on caps and above

as well as expand capital class

Gobsmacked....

Cool down timer is a great idea, supers and caps ruin fights and they're faster at travelling than even the new buffed interceptors. Rediculous mobility for biggest ships in EVE. They should be difficult and risky to move. And yes people would stop using them, people that like the easy mode style of play. Good. Go play World of Dweebcraft.

I would like to however propose a little adjustment to the timers of the OP. I think the timers should be around 10 minutes between jumps however during the cooldown the cap cannot enter a forcefield but can cloak. It would still be faster to travel from Tenal to Delve with a cap than with an interceptor however it would be a little more dangerous.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2013-12-06 05:17:06 UTC
Karma Codolle wrote:
Seriously, if cooldown was 2 hours i'd never fly one. Moving days and deployments would be hell.

"Ok fleet we jumped to our 1st way point, take a 4 hour break while we wait for cool down so we can continue our move"

You're thinking in simple terms. The reason alliances take cap fleets across multiple jumps is because they can. Very few will actually try to jump caps across multiple jumps for one deployment without leaving to do otherthings in the interim if there is a 2-4 hour cooldown on jumping. What would actually happen is that people would choose not to bring them all the way across the galaxy for every fight. It's not enough to make it difficult to bring them. You have to make it impossible to bring them.

Smaller alliances who have fewer capitals will still bring plenty of subcaps. The key here is to reduce the number of capitals on the field in any one battle.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Grandma Squirel
#10 - 2013-12-06 05:45:26 UTC
Your proposal would make it even safer to use capitals, because your enemy will be unable to counter due to their own jump timers. Once you know the enemy is out of direct jump range, or has just gone in somewhere else, you now have 4 hours of complete safety to do what you please with your own cap fleet. Also, I suggest you get back in touch with the current nullsec meta. Fully insured dread fleets in the 300 man range are currently being fielded, its not yet clear how that is going to end. (May just be another node killmail).
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2013-12-06 05:51:29 UTC
Grandma Squirel wrote:
Once you know the enemy is out of direct jump range, or has just gone in somewhere else, you now have 4 hours of complete safety to do what you please with your own cap fleet.

as long as it's already in range.

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2013-12-06 06:00:59 UTC
Grandma Squirel wrote:
Your proposal would make it even safer to use capitals, because your enemy will be unable to counter due to their own jump timers. Once you know the enemy is out of direct jump range, or has just gone in somewhere else, you now have 4 hours of complete safety to do what you please with your own cap fleet. Also, I suggest you get back in touch with the current nullsec meta. Fully insured dread fleets in the 300 man range are currently being fielded, its not yet clear how that is going to end. (May just be another node killmail).

And how are you going to know? Maybe that cap fleet that jumped out of range is a diversion to lure you into jumping yours within range of another fleet. Once you jump in you're committed to fight. Sounds like more fun than the current dweebery.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#13 - 2013-12-06 06:09:05 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Karma Codolle wrote:
Seriously, if cooldown was 2 hours i'd never fly one. Moving days and deployments would be hell.

"Ok fleet we jumped to our 1st way point, take a 4 hour break while we wait for cool down so we can continue our move"

You're thinking in simple terms. The reason alliances take cap fleets across multiple jumps is because they can. Very few will actually try to jump caps across multiple jumps for one deployment without leaving to do otherthings in the interim if there is a 2-4 hour cooldown on jumping. What would actually happen is that people would choose not to bring them all the way across the galaxy for every fight. It's not enough to make it difficult to bring them. You have to make it impossible to bring them.

Smaller alliances who have fewer capitals will still bring plenty of subcaps. The key here is to reduce the number of capitals on the field in any one battle.



If there is a 2-4 hour cooldown on jumping, then you cannot leave a battle either way for 2-4 hours. If you win, you're stuck there. Of you lose, you're stuck there. How is it good game design to force players to stop playing for large periods of time because they took part in an unopposed POS bash? Or because they won a fight?
Caleb Seremshur
Bloodhorn
Patchwork Freelancers
#14 - 2013-12-06 06:27:13 UTC
1 hr cool down to increase response times for capitals and increase accountability when they are used. Losers should credibly stand to lose most of their fleet
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2013-12-06 06:39:22 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Karma Codolle wrote:
Seriously, if cooldown was 2 hours i'd never fly one. Moving days and deployments would be hell.

"Ok fleet we jumped to our 1st way point, take a 4 hour break while we wait for cool down so we can continue our move"

You're thinking in simple terms. The reason alliances take cap fleets across multiple jumps is because they can. Very few will actually try to jump caps across multiple jumps for one deployment without leaving to do otherthings in the interim if there is a 2-4 hour cooldown on jumping. What would actually happen is that people would choose not to bring them all the way across the galaxy for every fight. It's not enough to make it difficult to bring them. You have to make it impossible to bring them.

Smaller alliances who have fewer capitals will still bring plenty of subcaps. The key here is to reduce the number of capitals on the field in any one battle.



If there is a 2-4 hour cooldown on jumping, then you cannot leave a battle either way for 2-4 hours. If you win, you're stuck there. Of you lose, you're stuck there. How is it good game design to force players to stop playing for large periods of time because they took part in an unopposed POS bash? Or because they won a fight?

How is it good game design to have the biggest most powerful ships in the game the most mobile and most easily able to escape a counter attack? Besides you could always fit a cloak eh?

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Reaver Glitterstim
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2013-12-06 07:39:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim
I wouldn't suggest anyone fit a cloaking device on a dreadnought, that would bring its DPS down almost to that of a Kronos, and for a higher price tag. But I did suggest somewhere in here that it could be two separate cooldowns, allowing you to jump back out after a fight. If you want to jump out after its over, you are limited to a range of 1 jump. For deploying early, you can jump twice to go where you need to go, 4 times if you come back tomorrow to finish. And with an 18 hour cooldown on titans, they can come too.

edit: edited my top post to reflect this

FT Diomedes: "Reaver, sometimes I wonder what you are thinking when you sit down to post."

Frostys Virpio: "We have to give it to him that he does put more effort than the vast majority in his idea but damn does it sometime come out of nowhere."
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#17 - 2013-12-06 07:52:04 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
I wouldn't suggest anyone fit a cloaking device on a dreadnought, that would bring its DPS down almost to that of a Kronos, and for a higher price tag. But I did suggest somewhere in here that it could be two separate cooldowns, allowing you to jump back out after a fight. If you want to jump out after its over, you are limited to a range of 1 jump. For deploying early, you can jump twice to go where you need to go, 4 times if you come back tomorrow to finish. And with an 18 hour cooldown on titans, they can come too.

edit: edited my top post to reflect this

Yeah but they don't have to combat with a cloak, friendly carrier or depot solves that problem.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Grandma Squirel
#18 - 2013-12-06 14:34:17 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
I wouldn't suggest anyone fit a cloaking device on a dreadnought, that would bring its DPS down almost to that of a Kronos, and for a higher price tag. But I did suggest somewhere in here that it could be two separate cooldowns, allowing you to jump back out after a fight. If you want to jump out after its over, you are limited to a range of 1 jump. For deploying early, you can jump twice to go where you need to go, 4 times if you come back tomorrow to finish. And with an 18 hour cooldown on titans, they can come too.

edit: edited my top post to reflect this

Yeah but they don't have to combat with a cloak, friendly carrier or depot solves that problem.


And now we know you don't actually have a dread...
samualvimes
Brothers At Arms
#19 - 2013-12-06 18:24:28 UTC
Meh While force projection does have negative impacts on the game there are some positives as posted above ie big fights.

I don't think a timer is the way to go as it does S*** all over the small scale engagements

I'd much more likely support that the more a jump drive is used the lower it's range gets. so the first jump can be 20ly the next 10 the next 5 etc however it recharges over time to full range etc so you still have local range abilities however long range becomes more of a PITA and needs more management.

Not a great idea but better than some of these.

If you've never tried PvP in EvE it's quite possible you've missed out on one of the greatest rushes available in modern gaming.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#20 - 2013-12-06 18:53:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Batelle
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:


Carrier/Rorqual: 2 hours
Dreadnought: 4 hours
Supercarrier: 8 hours
Titan: 18 hours


Carrier/rorq: no cooldown
Dread: no cooldown
Supercarrier: 15 minutes
Titan: 30 minutes

Maybe start with something like this. Maybe a bit higher for supers/titans to reflect TiDi affects.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

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