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BitCoin & Isk.

First post
Author
Scruffled
#1 - 2013-11-30 05:47:09 UTC
Let's make it happen?
Ila Dace
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2013-11-30 05:49:15 UTC
Scruffled wrote:
Let's make it happen?

Sure. Give me a BitCoin and I'll have both BitCoin & ISK... I'll send you a screen shot of my wallets.

If House played Eve: http://i.imgur.com/y7ShT.jpg

But in purple, I'm stunning!

James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2013-11-30 05:56:52 UTC
This thread is bad.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Sevendeadly Sins
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2013-11-30 06:06:46 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
This thread is bad.

Am I bad?

http://www.zombo.com

Ila Dace
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#5 - 2013-11-30 06:12:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Ila Dace
Sevendeadly Sins wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
This thread is bad.

Am I bad?

We're not bad, we just poast that way. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1585832#post1585832

If House played Eve: http://i.imgur.com/y7ShT.jpg

But in purple, I'm stunning!

Captain Tardbar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#6 - 2013-11-30 06:37:17 UTC
So are you really going to spends thousands of dollars to build bit-coin mining machines just to spend it on EVE?

Looking to talk on VOIP with other EVE players? Are you new and need help with EVE (welfare) or looking for advice? Looking for adversarial debate with angry people?

Captain Tardbar's Voice Discord Server

The Spod
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2013-11-30 09:04:12 UTC
Traded my house for tulip seeds already :(
Erotica 1
Krypteia Operations
#8 - 2013-11-30 09:27:09 UTC
Scruffled wrote:
Let's make it happen?


No.

See all the other locked bitcoin threads for reasons why.

See Bio for isk doubling rules. If you didn't read bio, chances are you funded those who did.

Grey Azorria
Federation Industries
#9 - 2013-11-30 10:05:29 UTC
Well at least this terribad idea is original....

...Oh, wait - never mind.

Do not argue with an idiot. He will drag you down to his level and beat you with experience.

Sometimes when I post, I look at my sig and wish that I'd follow my own god damned advice.

Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#10 - 2013-11-30 13:32:51 UTC
Is trading one virtual currency for another virtual currency technically considered RMT?
Sebastor Cane
The Outlet
#11 - 2013-11-30 13:40:18 UTC
This thread is bad and you should feel bad
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#12 - 2013-11-30 18:06:54 UTC
The Spod wrote:
Traded my house for tulip seeds already :(



Crazy Dutchman.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2013-11-30 18:14:22 UTC
You might have heard of a currency called Bitcoin. It only exists on the Internet and according to it's supporters it will eventually replace all other currencies used for electronic payments. It is so powerful that the banks don't know what to do about it. It is absolutely secure and can't be manipulated because the software that runs it is open source so anyone can look at the program code and see what it does. (The fact that someone claimed to have had $1.4 million worth of Bitcoins stolen from his electronic wallet this a few weeks was just a hiccup. Of course, with no audit trail of any kind he didn't want to bother the police with this because there's nothing they can do. Cynics are suggesting that as he ran the "exchange" where the money was stored there might be more to the story, but what "18-year-old" would ever bother about "losing" that trivial amount of money?) One argument presented to me was that "fiat currencies" (the red flag du jour when talking to believers in financial conspiracies) have no actual asset backing since countries went off the gold standard and therefore the US dollar, the Yen, the Euro, the UK pound and the Australian dollar (the biggest players in the foreign exchange market) could all be worth nothing tomorrow and nobody will accept them as payment for anything. Questions about the asset backing of Bitcoins were met with non sequiturs about software and algorithms and how nobody controls it.

I have been somewhat critical of the proponents of this magical money for several reasons. One of them is that everything they say about the future of this is an echo of what I have been hearing for decades about multi-level marketing, which has always been a couple of years away from totally dominating retail sales of almost everything. (The silliest thing was someone telling me that the only way you could buy a Honda car in Japan was from an Amway distributor.) It doesn't take much work to find that the numbers related to MLM show that it is no threat to the retail industry and never will be.

The main function of Bitcoin seems to be speculation in the value of Bitcoins. When I asked where I could spend them to buy things that I might really need to buy, such as food and petrol, I was referred to a list of a hundred or so places that would take the currency. Most of them had "bit" in their name and only offered unspecified "services". The only place that seemed to be taking a lot of them was Silk Road, an underground sales outlet with about 70% of sales being illegal drugs. It was shut down by the FBI, coincidentally making the FBI one of the biggest Bitcoin holders in the world.

Having been told of the wonders of this currency I thought I would see just how much of a threat it is to the word's financial systems. Apparently there are about 12 million Bitcoins in circulation right now, with the number growing through some algorithm in the software that all users are obviously capable of reading and understanding, and which, of course, they trust that criminals like Silk Road haven't been tampering with to get an edge. The maximum number of Bitcoins that can ever exist is 21 million, but nobody can predict when that might happen. Current speculative value at the time of writing is just under $US450/coin. Using these values, let's see how Bitcoin stacks up against the Australian economy (which is about the tenth largest in the world). The $AU is worth $0.94US at the time of writing and this has been factored into the calculations.

Total value of Bitcoins: $A5.75 billion

Now, that's a lot of money, so let's see how it compares to the real world.


Cash in circulation $55.9 billion 10.28% Cash in wallets, purses, cash registers and behind the couch cushions

M3 (all the money in the economy) $1,584.4 billion 0.36%

Federal Government Budget Expenditure (2013-14) $398.5 billion 1.44%

Tasmanian Government Budget (2013-14) $5.1 billion 112.64% Oh look - more money than Australia's smallest state spends

Coles supermarket sales $35.8 billion 16.05% Just less than two months' grocery sales. There are other big supermarket chains.

Woolworths supermarket sales $40.0 billion 14.36% 52 day's sales of groceries and liquor (Woolworths don't separate the two in their reporting)

Bank profits (2012) $23.7 billion 24.24% That's just the profit the banks made, not assets

ASX daily share turnover $4.7 billion 122.23% Shares alone, not futures or any other equities or derivatives

ASX market capitalisation $1,200 billion 0.48% Value of publicly listed shares on the Australian Stock Exchange (eighth biggest in the world). Does not include the value of futures contracts or any other derivatives.

References:
Reserve Bank of Australia - http://www.rba.gov.au
Australian Government Budget Papers - http://www.budget.gov.au
Tasmanian Government Budget Papers - http://www.budget.tas.gov.au
Coles/Wesfarmers Annual Report 2013 - http://www.coles.com.au/about-coles/annual-reports
Woolworths annual report 2013 - http://www.woolworthslimited.com.au
Australian Bankers' Association - hhttp://www.bankers.asn.au
Australian Stock Exchange - http://www.asx.com.au
So it seems that if someone had all the Bitcoins in the world they could fund the Australian Government for five days, pay the bills for the smallest state for 13 months, keep bank shareholders happy for just under three months, buy all the shares sold on Monday and a bit of Tuesday and buy groceries and booze for almost two months.

And this is going to take over the world economy real soon now.

To be continued

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2013-11-30 18:18:34 UTC
In one discussion with a true believer I pointed out that even if all the 21 million possible Bitcoins were here right now they would need an individual value of $2661 to match the amount of cash floating around in Australia. I was told that this was irrelevant because someone somewhere had said that they could be worth "100,000s of dollars each". (I was tempted to ask whether this "economist" was trading the things and simply talking up the market, but I already had hints that the person I was talking to lacked some knowledge of economics - one indicator of this was that he had answered some questions by telling me to study economics.) I noted that 21 million Bitcoins at $200,000 each was equivalent to only 31.5 hours of international foreign exchange trading and was then subjected to a rant that showed that the person I was talking to didn't know the difference between a market and the multiplier effect so I gracefully retired.

Is Bitcoin a viable currency? No, it is a traded commodity. Is the world money system likely to be replaced by Bitcoins? Not now, not ever. Are the banks worried that their hegemony on the holding, lending and transferring of money is threatened? Bitcoin might be mentioned at a bank board meeting for a bit of amusement but deciding which biscuits to have with the coffee would worry board members more. Will people make money trading Bitcoins? As long as there are enough people prepared to throw money at a speculative commodity there will be money to be made. Has anything like it ever been seen before? Yes, in Holland in the 17th century, but at least you could hold a tulip bulb in your hand. One tulip sold in 1637 for ten times the annual wages of a skilled craftsman. Will anything like it ever be seen again? Of course - there is always a new scam coming along.

What I found surprising in all this is that all my discussions happened in forums that are supposed to be populated by sceptics and critical thinkers, although the several Bitcoin enthusiasts seemed to just appear at the mention of the word in the way that mention of circumcision or abortion almost anywhere on the 'net results in immediate spam, outrage and conflict. The passion shown by the true believers matched anything I've seen from religious bigots or racists. Their ability to produce straw men, misquote, provide non sequiturs and change the subject would do credit to any creationist or anti-vaccination liar. But, as one person told me, he was an expert in everything about it including the software code, the mathematical algorithm used to calculate value and number of issued coins, the security model (none, that I could see), the methods of communication and interaction between the many instances of the program and the inbuilt (but invisible to outsiders) method of auditing transactions. Despite all these he had no interest in it at all and was only arguing with me because I'm an idiot who can't see the truth and I should act like a real sceptic and look at the evidence.

Well, I did look at the evidence, and what it told me was that emperors should be vary wary of Bitcoin promoters who offer to sell them clothes.

So no, no Bitcoin in EVE please. That would definitely be an unsub event for me.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#15 - 2013-11-30 18:54:06 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
The Spod wrote:
Traded my house for tulip seeds already :(

Crazy Dutchman.

That's a bit redundant.
Pinky Hops
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#16 - 2013-11-30 19:01:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Pinky Hops
Abdiel Kavash wrote:
Is trading one virtual currency for another virtual currency technically considered RMT?


considering bitcoins are a real currency and have real value, i would say yes.

edit: also, there's nothing magical about it. it's just the first successfully implemented crypto currency. a crypto currency is not useful for everything and governments can make it a hassle to work with.
Cygnet Lythanea
World Welfare Works Association
#17 - 2013-11-30 20:13:09 UTC
One thing I'd like to point out about bitcoins (no I don't own any) is that Virgin Galactic, the space tourist guys, do accept bitcoins as payment. There are, btw, bitcoin atms now too. While I doubt it's going to revolutionize the world overnight.... it does seem to be catching on.

According to the 18 November 2013 Congressional hearings in the US, bitcoin is, in fact, a currency.
Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2013-11-30 20:29:26 UTC
Cygnet Lythanea wrote:
One thing I'd like to point out about bitcoins (no I don't own any) is that Virgin Galactic, the space tourist guys, do accept bitcoins as payment. There are, btw, bitcoin atms now too. While I doubt it's going to revolutionize the world overnight.... it does seem to be catching on.

According to the 18 November 2013 Congressional hearings in the US, bitcoin is, in fact, a currency.


No, that's not what happened at all. They referred to it a few times as a virtual currency, but never legitimised it as a currency. It's a commodity for trading because people think it has value.

Pinky Hops wrote:
considering bitcoins are a real currency and have real value, i would say yes.

edit: also, there's nothing magical about it. it's just the first successfully implemented crypto currency. a crypto currency is not useful for everything and governments can make it a hassle to work with.


"A crypto currency is not useful for everything" and yet it is a "real currency [with] real value."

Do you not see the problem with that statement?

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Merovee
Gorthaur Legion
Imperium Mordor
#19 - 2013-11-30 22:47:30 UTC
Bitcoins is like Napster,
Ignore it and it will go away.
What? another CD store closes.
Who wants to buy music they can't touch?
Will that be debit, credit or bit. Blink

Empire, the next new world order.

Neccazau
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#20 - 2013-12-05 04:42:51 UTC
Quote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
In one discussion with a true believer I pointed out that even if all the 21 million possible Bitcoins were here right now they would need an individual value of $2661 to match the amount of cash floating around in Australia. I was told that this was irrelevant because someone somewhere had said that they could be worth "100,000s of dollars each". (I was tempted to ask whether this "economist" was trading the things and simply talking up the market, but I already had hints that the person I was talking to lacked some knowledge of economics - one indicator of this was that he had answered some questions by telling me to study economics.) I noted that 21 million Bitcoins at $200,000 each was equivalent to only 31.5 hours of international foreign exchange trading and was then subjected to a rant that showed that the person I was talking to didn't know the difference between a market and the multiplier effect so I gracefully retired.

Is Bitcoin a viable currency? No, it is a traded commodity. Is the world money system likely to be replaced by Bitcoins? Not now, not ever. Are the banks worried that their hegemony on the holding, lending and transferring of money is threatened? Bitcoin might be mentioned at a bank board meeting for a bit of amusement but deciding which biscuits to have with the coffee would worry board members more. Will people make money trading Bitcoins? As long as there are enough people prepared to throw money at a speculative commodity there will be money to be made. Has anything like it ever been seen before? Yes, in Holland in the 17th century, but at least you could hold a tulip bulb in your hand. One tulip sold in 1637 for ten times the annual wages of a skilled craftsman. Will anything like it ever be seen again? Of course - there is always a new scam coming along.

What I found surprising in all this is that all my discussions happened in forums that are supposed to be populated by sceptics and critical thinkers, although the several Bitcoin enthusiasts seemed to just appear at the mention of the word in the way that mention of circumcision or abortion almost anywhere on the 'net results in immediate spam, outrage and conflict. The passion shown by the true believers matched anything I've seen from religious bigots or racists. Their ability to produce straw men, misquote, provide non sequiturs and change the subject would do credit to any creationist or anti-vaccination liar. But, as one person told me, he was an expert in everything about it including the software code, the mathematical algorithm used to calculate value and number of issued coins, the security model (none, that I could see), the methods of communication and interaction between the many instances of the program and the inbuilt (but invisible to outsiders) method of auditing transactions. Despite all these he had no interest in it at all and was only arguing with me because I'm an idiot who can't see the truth and I should act like a real sceptic and look at the evidence.

Well, I did look at the evidence, and what it told me was that emperors should be vary wary of Bitcoin promoters who offer to sell them clothes.

So no, no Bitcoin in EVE please. That would definitely be an unsub event for me.



So many points to argue with you, but why waste my time apart from the fact you have absolutely no idea how bitcoins work and that's cool. I get it, you are not interested.
Why would you go to such great lengths to attempt to discredit something you clearly have limited knowledge on?
And to go as far as to say, "that would definitely be an unsub event for me" when you would not have to use it as a payment method if you did not want to.
Nobody is forcing bitcoins on you
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